wip City Building Mod (A23 & A24)

[azayrahmad]

23 hours ago, Alexandermb said:

This may be handly for this point 

 

Thanks @Alexandermb!

So it seems that the warships were financed and commanded by the upper class, boarded by middle class hoplites, and crewed by lower class. I guess the implementation could be that the number of warship  is restricted by the amount of upper-class units. 

1 hour ago, Alexandermb said:

@azayrahmad this also can be helpfull for the spartans:

Description of the reference in spanish says: skenoporos servant of the hoplite

I just looked up on this. I think it's probably meant to be skeuophoros? I think there is a Serf technology implemented in a mod, probably Delenda Est. I might either make similar technology or make Helots have aura that increase Spartiates movement speed.

[azayrahmad]

Phase III Update

So I have started building Phase III, but due to my inexperience with ancient history, took a long time. Right now only Athens has been reworked. It is playable, but AI cannot upgrade building yet so it is recommended to not assign AI to Athenians for now. This should be compatible with current version of City Building Mod, but it is recommended to play it separately as I haven't tested the integration fully.

Notable changes:

• Phasing is now automatic, but Agora still has to be upgraded first, from Village center to Town center to City center.
• Market and Fortress are now unbuildable, but upgradable from buildable village center.
• Agora can now trade, so bartering can be done in village phase.
• Athens can now build Siege Workshop and Stable.
• New units and technologies based on social class.
• and more.

Enjoy and let me know if there's some bug or some gameplay changes that don't make sense.

Citizen-Mod.zip

[simernes]

Awesome :D!!!! so cool to see these kind of custom style maps. Reminds me of Warcraft III days

[nifa]

hey @azayrahmad, I was wondering if it would be possible (and desirable) to display a terrain texture around a building to display the aura range instead of the circles? So e.g. there would be a specific city pavement around the houses, that would give it a nice city like look:)

Maybe different textures for different "city areas", nice stone tiles around houses and CC, dirt around military buildings, and hay or grass around farms

Edited February 7, 2021 by nifa

[azayrahmad]

On 07/02/2021 at 8:12 AM, nifa said:

hey @azayrahmad, I was wondering if it would be possible (and desirable) to display a terrain texture around a building to display the aura range instead of the circles? So e.g. there would be a specific city pavement around the houses, that would give it a nice city like look:)

Maybe different textures for different "city areas", nice stone tiles around houses and CC, dirt around military buildings, and hay or grass around farms

Hi @nifa, sorry for not replying earlier, I took some time off of 0 AD modding.

Is it possible? Probably, but it is texture then, and not aura. Last time I checked, aura range always use player's color, means that it cannot support texture, only alpha (CMIIW). I don't have any expertise in 3D modeling and texturing, but I'm sure that pavement can be supported.

Is it desirable? Personally, I want it ... Though I still don't know how. I'll start modding again after A24 releases, perhaps.

 

[Freagarach]

Please do let us know if we can help you with porting your mod to the new release :)

[nifa]

21 hours ago, azayrahmad said:

Hi @nifa, sorry for not replying earlier, I took some time off of 0 AD modding.

Is it possible? Probably, but it is texture then, and not aura. Last time I checked, aura range always use player's color, means that it cannot support texture, only alpha (CMIIW). I don't have any expertise in 3D modeling and texturing, but I'm sure that pavement can be supported.

Is it desirable? Personally, I want it ... Though I still don't know how. I'll start modding again after A24 releases, perhaps.

Thanks! Yes, I think it would look nice. I like this approach to "force" the players not to build randomly but also to make it look good. I'm looking forward to your mod in a24

[azayrahmad]

The mod is now updated for 0AD Alpha 24, but only for Phase I, i.e. various building aura have been implemented, but coin resource is not yet implemented for A24.

From some sources I read, it seems that while coin were already used as currency in 0AD time period, taxation is still raw resources in many civilizations, so my mod can be completely wrong in some regards (Please CMIIW, actual historians). I will do more researches on this meanwhile.

You can download the mod at mod.io. The newest version is still waiting approval, so it is not yet appeared in 0AD mod downloader.

[Nescio]

9 minutes ago, azayrahmad said:

From some sources I read, it seems that while coin were already used as currency in 0AD time period, taxation is still raw resources in many civilizations, so my mod can be completely wrong in some regards (Please CMIIW, actual historians). I will do more researches on this meanwhile.

Yes, coinage did exist in 0 A.D.'s timeframe, however, their value depended on their purity and weight. That's also why I decided to name the resource “silver” in my 0abc mod, not “coins” or “money”. And yes, the ancient world certainly wasn't fully monetized: rent was typically a share of the harvest and import duties could be a percentage of the goods.

[azayrahmad]

On 28/02/2021 at 6:24 PM, Nescio said:

Yes, coinage did exist in 0 A.D.'s timeframe, however, their value depended on their purity and weight. That's also why I decided to name the resource “silver” in my 0abc mod, not “coins” or “money”. And yes, the ancient world certainly wasn't fully monetized: rent was typically a share of the harvest and import duties could be a percentage of the goods.

Silver is still a kind of metal though... Precious metals, that is. Perhaps "currency" is more appropriate?

Regardless, it's true that in this time period the world is not yet fully monetized, and I feel like my mod currently overestimate the importance of money. I'm still thinking of a way to depict several ancient economy concept e.g. liturgy, levy, and wealth tax properly in 0 A.D, if possible.

[Alfred]

@azayrahmad

Ur doing an excellent job creating this mod. I was wondering what you think of the following idea I had:

Have money(silver as it is called apparently) be really slowly gained. Im talking about 1 silver per second for 10 or 20 houses (depending on how much pop the house provides. e.g. romans only need 10 houses for this, while egyptians need 20. I think you get what I mean). This will mean that much of the silver will have to be bartered if it is required. I think this makes historical sense, because when there is a war or when a nation is preparing for a war, the nation will sell their resources (food, wood etc) in order to pay for the war. In terms of gameplay, this would mean having all your workers (soldiers and citizens) on resources, until you aquire enough silver to create a massive champion army and btfo your enemies who have been using citizen-soldiers exclusively because they think it is more efficient and 'cheap'. For champions itself, you could put a much heavier dependence on silver. For Example a persian immortal: 125 food, 100 wood, 75 iron.

                                             New Persian immportal: 125 food, 10 wood, 5 iron, 150 silver

Hope you know what I am talking about.

[azayrahmad]

@Alfred

Silver resource is not in this mod, but in @Nescio's 0abc mod (another, more polished mod). In my mod I called it Coin, but yeah it works similarly with 0abc.

As for your suggestion, yes that was what I aim for. Currently the coin seems to increase exponentially lategame, and I want to reduce the rate per second. However as I mentioned in previous comments, I'm afraid this concept i.e. governments taxing coins from households, is a bit ahistorical.

I'm contemplating a way to a more realistic and historical currency usage. Probably simulating coin minting by converting metals to coins in civic centers/markets. I also want to limit coin usage for expensive soldiers only (champions and mercenaries). But I'm still thinking if this is too redundant for creating another resource (I also have in mind to create Knowledge resource for researching technologies).

[Alfred]

11 minutes ago, azayrahmad said:

@Alfred

Silver resource is not in this mod, but in @Nescio's 0abc mod (another, more polished mod). In my mod I called it Coin, but yeah it works similarly with 0abc.

As for your suggestion, yes that was what I aim for. Currently the coin seems to increase exponentially lategame, and I want to reduce the rate per second. However as I mentioned in previous comments, I'm afraid this concept i.e. governments taxing coins from households, is a bit ahistorical.

I'm contemplating a way to a more realistic and historical currency usage. Probably simulating coin minting by converting metals to coins in civic centers/markets. I also want to limit coin usage for expensive soldiers only (champions and mercenaries). But I'm still thinking if this is too redundant for creating another resource (I also have in mind to create Knowledge resource for researching technologies).

yeah thats why I was thinking you could use the barter system instead, as I suggested. I dont know if this is too hard, or you are already too much in the midst of modding, but I had several ideas for that. Im certain you could have come across these before:

- Dont make houses generate coins (until stage III).

- Have what i call 'nobility buildings'. These include the apadana for the persians and prytaneion for athenians. These should generate gold, at a moderately high rate. (Also depending on where they are situated). It should be 0-2 coins/second. These buildings get +1 coin for each temple or farmland they are near to, but caps are +2 coins/second. This historically was the case in many civilizations.

- The market building doesnt generate coins itself, but each time a trader gets from one point to another, the trader 'pays' 1 coin. There should also be a minimum distance between two markets (or two dockyards, a market and a dockyard). This is true historically, as a country receives import taxes.

- The temples generate gold. The amount depending on how far away they are from the houses. For each house close to a temple, you could generate 1 gold/second. There should also be costs to running the temples. Therefore, you could have the rule that temples generate -2 coins/second, and therefore, to make them profitable, have to be build near houses. These cap at 1 coin/second. This is true historically.

- In the final (third) phase,  have taxation technologies that in each level you could get 0.1, 0.25, 0.5 gold per house. However, this would mean for the non-champion units, they would receive a -25%, -50%, and -75% loss to health and gather rates. Sure this is harsh on the workers, but eventually, this is would create the specialization we see in high tier nations/ societies. Also as you tax more the people, the lesser their living conditions (obviously). 

I hope this helps.

 

 

[Alfred]

2 minutes ago, Alfred said:

yeah thats why I was thinking you could use the barter system instead, as I suggested. I dont know if this is too hard, or you are already too much in the midst of modding, but I had several ideas for that. Im certain you could have come across these before:

- Dont make houses generate coins (until stage III).

- Have what i call 'nobility buildings'. These include the apadana for the persians and prytaneion for athenians. These should generate gold, at a moderately high rate. (Also depending on where they are situated). It should be 0-2 coins/second. These buildings get +1 coin for each temple or farmland they are near to, but caps are +2 coins/second. This historically was the case in many civilizations.

- The market building doesnt generate coins itself, but each time a trader gets from one point to another, the trader 'pays' 1 coin. There should also be a minimum distance between two markets (or two dockyards, a market and a dockyard). This is true historically, as a country receives import taxes.

- The temples generate gold. The amount depending on how far away they are from the houses. For each house close to a temple, you could generate 1 gold/second. There should also be costs to running the temples. Therefore, you could have the rule that temples generate -2 coins/second, and therefore, to make them profitable, have to be build near houses. These cap at 1 coin/second. This is true historically.

- In the final (third) phase,  have taxation technologies that in each level you could get 0.1, 0.25, 0.5 gold per house. However, this would mean for the non-champion units, they would receive a -25%, -50%, and -75% loss to health and gather rates. Sure this is harsh on the workers, but eventually, this is would create the specialization we see in high tier nations/ societies. Also as you tax more the people, the lesser their living conditions (obviously). 

I hope this helps.

 

 

For the trading part, i was wrong about it. It should be a percentage of the goods which are transported. For example,  100 wood, you receive 5% in tarrifs. This means for each transaction in this case, you receive 5 coins. This could also have technologies in phase III, in which you could raise import taxes to 10, 15 and 20%, while decreasing the amount of trading goods by 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%. For instance, if you normally are trading 100 wood per trader, with 20% tariffs, you get 20 coins for each transaction, but only get 60 wood. I hope you know what im saying.

[Nescio]

1 hour ago, azayrahmad said:

Silver resource is not in this mod, but in @Nescio's 0abc mod (another, more polished mod).

“Polished” is perhaps too much praise. It's a mod I use for trying out ideas and for showing what 0 A.D. could be. It works, without errors (A24 version), yet it's not finished, far from it, it's very much a work in progress, though I don't have enough time to improve it as often as I would like.

1 hour ago, azayrahmad said:

In my mod I called it Coin, but yeah it works similarly with 0abc.

The concept is the same (a money resource that cannot be gathered directly), the name is not particularly important, and both Delenda Est and Hyrule Conquest have such a resource too.

An important difference is that in Delenda Est, citizens generate the resource; in yours, houses do; in my 0abc mod, neither does. (Civic centres did in an earlier version, but I haven't carried that over, because large players benefit a lot more from that, effectively penalizing players who develop more slowly or are on the defensive. For the same reason I've removed resource loot from units.)

1 hour ago, azayrahmad said:

Currently the coin seems to increase exponentially lategame,

That's hardly surprising. If I understand correctly, houses increase your income, there is no limit on houses, therefore there is no limit on your income.

2 hours ago, azayrahmad said:

(I also have in mind to create Knowledge resource for researching technologies).

Rise of Nations had that, it worked great there.

[Lion.Kanzen]

There is a functionality that I want to create for 0 ad.

It is a feature that comes from the Caesar series.

 

I like the trading system with cities that are not in the map area.

 

But to program this feature, it is necessary to program quite a new extra interface, that is, an extra international trade screen.

 

The idea is commercial with other neighboring cities on the map, for example, the one I am showing you above, you come exotic as well as certain goods,resources that your city has plenty to spare.

What I imagine to do is to be able to trade slaves with mercenaries and simply even create exotic resources something that was also one of the features of Rise of Nations.

 

[azayrahmad]

@Alfred Thanks for your suggestions! Some of your suggestions have also been in my mind recently.

15 hours ago, Alfred said:

- Dont make houses generate coins (until stage III).

I decided to not make houses generate coins, as there's no record of ancient governments taxing households coins. But I am working on creating a food taxation system.

15 hours ago, Alfred said:

- Have what i call 'nobility buildings'. These include the apadana for the persians and prytaneion for athenians. These should generate gold, at a moderately high rate.

I have in mind to create this as well, but a bit unsure about the historicity of this. Nobility taxing the lower class seems to be the truth in medieval era, but I'm not sure this is the case in antiquity. In Greek city-states, the wealthy are the ones who funded public/civic duties (liturgy). Someone with history expertise might want to share opinion?

15 hours ago, Alfred said:

- The market building doesnt generate coins itself, but each time a trader gets from one point to another, the trader 'pays' 1 coin. There should also be a minimum distance between two markets (or two dockyards, a market and a dockyard). This is true historically, as a country receives import taxes.

Now this, I read that Athens' Piraeus harbor implemented this trade tax, not sure about land markets but let's assume they did as well. But it can be done. So the coin resource trickle would be 5% of Trader's capacity.

15 hours ago, Alfred said:

- The temples generate gold. The amount depending on how far away they are from the houses. For each house close to a temple, you could generate 1 gold/second. There should also be costs to running the temples. Therefore, you could have the rule that temples generate -2 coins/second, and therefore, to make them profitable, have to be build near houses. These cap at 1 coin/second. This is true historically.

This is great idea. I just read an article that says Parthenon was used to deposit a large sum of coins, probably used for war effort.

15 hours ago, Alfred said:

- In the final (third) phase,  have taxation technologies that in each level you could get 0.1, 0.25, 0.5 gold per house. However, this would mean for the non-champion units, they would receive a -25%, -50%, and -75% loss to health and gather rates. Sure this is harsh on the workers, but eventually, this is would create the specialization we see in high tier nations/ societies. Also as you tax more the people, the lesser their living conditions (obviously). 

This sounds like taxation system in Delenda Est.

14 hours ago, Nescio said:

houses increase your income, there is no limit on houses, therefore there is no limit on your income.

Well this mod is city building mod, the coin was made to reward city planning after all. Besides all buildings consume money (coin negative trickle) as well, so it should be well spent and not infinite. I'm still balancing between trickles to prevent too much coins.

11 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

I like the trading system with cities that are not in the map area.

This is great idea but I'm not sure how it would implement in RTS like 0A.D. I tried to avoid the feature to feel like AoE3 Home City.

Perhaps it could be simplified, like techonolgies researched at markets/docks. E.g in Rome's market: "Open Trade Route with Caesarea" cost: 700 coins, effect: markets trickle -1 food/sec, +1 wood/sec. Different civs could have different trickle effects based on their historical trade. Trade could also be stopped with another tech "Stop Trading with Caesaria" that stops the trickling.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, azayrahmad said:

This is great idea but I'm not sure how it would implement in RTS like 0A.D. I tried to avoid the feature to feel like AoE3 Home City.

Perhaps it could be simplified, like techonolgies researched at markets/docks. E.g in Rome's market: "Open Trade Route with Caesarea" cost: 700 coins, effect: markets trickle -1 food/sec, +1 wood/sec. Different civs could have different trickle effects based on their historical trade. Trade could also be stopped with another tech "Stop Trading with Caesaria" that stops the trickling.

Yes it is complicated but more or less the concept of is trade with imaginary allies.

 

my idea was to mix AoE III, Rise of Nations and Classic city builders from impression games.

 

Then you would have to have a rare resource which could be diamonds or gems, some stone or something rare.

https://riseofnations.fandom.com/wiki/Rare_Resources

 

And you captured them with the merchant.

 

And then I would trade it for money

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Lion.Kanzen

[williamramirez]

On 2/28/2021 at 12:24 PM, Nescio said:

Yes, coinage did exist in 0 A.D.'s timeframe, however, their value depended on their purity and weight. That's also why I decided to name the resource “silver” here in my 0abc mod, not “coins” or “money”. And yes, the ancient world certainly wasn't fully monetized: rent was typically a share of the harvest and import duties could be a percentage of the goods.

 

Silver was valued at the same time as gold. It is a pity that in the course of time the difference has become colossal. 

Edited March 25, 2021 by williamramirez

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

6 hours ago, williamramirez said:

 

Silver was valued at the same time as gold. It is a pity that in the course of time the difference has become colossal. 

Indeed. Aesthetically, I much prefer silver to gold.

[azayrahmad]

A little update:

• Incorporates Morale System. Now all units have morale. In addition, units with zero morale for some time (currently 30s) will turn into Gaia capturable slave.
• Auto Queue. Now a structure can be set to auto-queue to loop through available unit production queue as long as resources and population available.
• Farm reseed. Fields are now have finite grain amount. Fields also only gatherable by one unit, and will automatically rebuilt if the grain supply has been depleted.

I'm probably going to freeze the mod development for a while, perhaps will continue once Alpha 25 has been released. But meanwhile your suggestions and critical reviews are always welcome.