==[Concept Task]== Cimbrians, Ambrones, Teutons

[Genava55]

@av93 Ok I have consider a bit about it and maybe we can call them "Early Germans" (Proto-Germans is a bit ugly) and we can use my idea about the Marcomanni as a confederation and alliance of different tribes. This factions should represents the "Germans" from the Pre-Roman Era and the beginning of the Roman Era, up to the Marcomannic wars.

However, what this faction will bring as new mechanics ? Maybe I have an idea. What about a customizable roster for the player through tribes choices in his confederation/alliance?

For example each tribe could brings three units and the player can choose three tribes from a list. Each tribe having some generic units in common and some unique units. For example the Cherusci have cheap pikemen (yes, there are sources about it), the Cimbri have a chainmail swordsman champion, the Tencteri have a champion cavalry unit, the Lugii have a Celtic like unit, the Suebi have a spearman and strong javelinists etc. etc.

I like the idea of customizable roster, it reminds me of AoM. This only an idea I throw here. What do you think about it?

[av93]

6 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

@av93 Ok I have consider a bit about it and maybe we can call them "Early Germans" (Proto-Germans is a bit ugly) and we can use my idea about the Marcomanni as a confederation and alliance of different tribes. This factions should represents the "Germans" from the Pre-Roman Era and the beginning of the Roman Era, up to the Marcomannic wars.

However, what this faction will bring as new mechanics ? Maybe I have an idea. What about a customizable roster for the player through tribes choices in his confederation/alliance?

For example each tribe could brings three units and the player can choose three tribes from a list. Each tribe having some generic units in common and some unique units. For example the Cherusci have cheap pikemen (yes, there are sources about it), the Cimbri have a chainmail swordsman champion, the Tencteri have a champion cavalry unit, the Lugii have a Celtic like unit, the Suebi have a spearman and strong javelinists etc. etc.

I like the idea of customizable roster, it reminds me of AoM. This only an idea I throw here. What do you think about it?

It's nice! Although some kind of basic roster should be made. Somewhat this system was proposed to Carthaginians, but IMHO they just should have access to all mercenaries, and this feature could be kept to Germans if confederations were a common thing.

IRC from other mods and games, Germanic warfare had as a special quirks maces, bows (more used than celts), pikes (as you said) and women warriors (although seems that Scythian also used them)

As other European central/north "barbarians" they used naked units and noble heavy infantry, and relied a lot in ambushes with skirmishers. They used lighter cavalry than Gauls.

I don't know nothing about cultural or economical aspects.

But they guy that uses a lot of good sources are you! I'm just writing all of this because I like to learn.

[Lopess]

Hi, I do not know if this can add something else I've seen this mod in git for a while, it's very old unfortunately  ( link https://github.com/fer3852/germanics) .

Edited April 23, 2019 by Lopess

[Lion.Kanzen]

14 hours ago, Genava55 said:

I wonder if a confederate faction like the Marcomanni with regional units could be better to represents all the diversity of the early germanic speaking populations. 

there some problem with that, Marcomanni weren't early... geographical they are close but Romans have some conflicts before, this conflicts make germans make new strategies or alliances. implemented many new things.

yesterday I save several sources. 

this started defining Germans groups.

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The Germanic tribes seem to have originated in a homeland in southern Scandinavia (Sweden and Norway, with the Jutland area of northern Denmark, along with a very narrow strip of Baltic coastline). They had been settled here for over two thousand years following the Indo-European migrations. Certainly, tradition maintained by the Goths stated that they had migrated from a homeland in this region. In the early first century AD, Pliny and Strabo describe the Teutones as inhabiting central Denmark, forming a group known as the Ingaevones with the Chauci and the Cimbri. 'Ingaevones' itself may be a derivative of the later Angles, who may have been part of the same collective, along with the Jutes (both tribes occupied the southern Baltic coast at this time, immediately east of the Saxons). Another early grouping or culture was that of the Irimones, which was situated further to the east, between the rivers Oder and Elbe. The third grouping was that of the Istvaeones, located on the Rhine and around the Weser. All three of these early terms for tribal collectives fell out of use as individual tribes came to be known.

we dont considered Chauci. because only are taking migrant/nomad group.

Spoiler

The Chauci (or Cauci, Chauken, or even Caülci) formed a relatively large tribe, comparable to the early Frisians in number. By the second century they were located in the far north-western corner of modern Germany, between the lower Rhine and the Elbe. To the south were the Tencteri and Usipetes, to the south-west were the Bructeri and Chamavi, with the coastal Frisii and (probably) the Campsiani to the west, and the Aviones and Reudigni to the north, across the Elbe. In the early first century AD, Pliny and Strabo describe the Chauci, Cimbri, andTeutones as inhabiting central Denmark, forming a group known as the Ingaevones. ('Ingaevones' itself may be a derivative of the later Angles, who may have been part of the same collective, along with the Jutes). Strabo says that the Romans introduced the name 'Germani' because these tribes were the 'authentic Celts'. Alternatively, it is possible that the Germani were allies of the Celts (a theory that is supported by Edward Dawson).

Strabo had no idea about the difference between Celts and this new group. "Germani"

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fourth group were the Herminones, which comprised the Suebi (in the narrow sense), Chatti, Hermunduri and others, which dominated the Elbe region. Their linguistic descendants speak modern Upper German. These four groups (plus one other) formed in the pre-Roman Iron Age after around 800 BC. Maurer attributed proto-Germanic to the Nordic Bronze Age, which he dates to 1200-800 BC according to the information available to him then. The dates have changed a little and a pre-Roman Iron Age has been developed since then to which some assign the proto-Germanic language. It ranged over a region forming a rough triangle, with vertices in southern Scandinavia, the mouth of the Rhine, and the mouth of the Vistula. In fact the Baltic Sea was known to the Romans as the Mare Suebicum, a name which it no doubt inherited from times at which the Suebi inhabited the shores of the Baltic and were probably one with the Suiones (Swedes).

 

Suebi becomes in conflict with Romans early than Marcomanni.

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In the broadest sense, the Suebi are associated with the early Germanic tribal group Irminones, also mentioned by classical authors. Beginning in the 1st century BC, various Suebian tribes moved south-westwards from the Baltic Sea and the Elbe and came into conflict with Ancient Rome. They are first mentioned by Julius Caesar in connection with the invasion of Gaul by the Suebian chieftain Ariovistus during the Gallic Wars. 

but this different source. the other article start define cultural background like Celtic or Uralic/ Altai influences.

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Once they had migrated southwards from Scandinavia, the Germanic tribes carved out homelands between the Rhine and the Pripet Marshes (modern Belarus). They slowly consolidated their positions (although migrations still occurred) until they had formed into barbarian kingdoms that eventually threatened the Roman empire itself. This became bloody reality when they were forced west and south by later incursions of Hunnic tribes into their lands. Six major tribes, the Visigoths (Western Goths), the Ostrogoths (Eastern Goths), the Vandali, the Burgundians, the Langobards (initially part of the Suevi confederation), and the Franks participated in the fragmentation and collapse of theWestern Roman empire. Several other tribes were also involved in this mass migration, the Alani and key tribes of the Suevi confederation in particular, though the Alani were an Iranian steppe people, not Germans.

Most Celtic and Germanic tribal names were made up of a core word, plus two suffixes, one indigenous and one Latin. For example, the Pictones is not Picton (Picts in modern English), it is Pict. The Redones are Red (Reds in plural form in modern English). This is often overlooked when analysing tribal names. In addition, the definite article was used as a suffix to denote a people, and since that time in which it was indeed used to denote a people, it appears to have evolved into a plural suffix in some subsequent languages. This affects the use of the '-on' plural suffix in many tribal name translations, but perhaps not seriously.

Many of those tribes, especially in the north, acknowledged the importance of a figure named Woden or Wotan. The proto-Germanic dictionary mentions 'guda, gudan', meaning 'priest'. 'Gudan' is a form of Wotan, which suggests that it is the native Germanic name of a priest who is later deified. 'Wotan' may even be a title for a particular priest, and may be pronounced 'Guotan' by the Celts who strongly influenced the Germanic tribes. Far from being a warrior chieftain, the Eddas, Volsung Saga, Niebelungenleid, Beowulf, and others always describe Wotan as a magician, not a fighter. The Vainamoinen of the Kalevala shows similarities and possibly a template for later versions of 'magician' priests such as Wotan and even Merlin.

It seems that Germanic and Norse magical tradition could originate with the Finns/Kvens because it shows the characteristics of the shamanism of Uralic and Altaic speakers and related groups across northern Eurasia. An absolute characteristic of the Eurasian shamanic cosmogony is the higher/middle/lower worlds division, quite evident in the nine worlds of Norse myth if you have magical knowledge and know the subject properly. The Germanic peoples, who originated as a recognisable group in southern Scandinavia, show evidence of strong contact and influence from Celts and Finns/Kvens. Of their deities, there seems to be only one direct descendant from Indo-European tradition, that of Tyr or Tiu (who is cognate with 'deus' or 'dyus'). The others appear to be either invented (Heimdall means 'home valley'), or borrowed (Thor was the Taranus of the Celts), or they are deified humans such as Wotan (the Woden of the Angles).

Spoiler

c.750 - 500 BC

While the Celts are beginning to expand from their traditional territory in southern Germany, the Germanic peoples still seem to be occupying a possible original homeland in southern Sweden and the Jutland peninsula (as suggested by Edward Dawson), where they would be surrounded on three sides by Kvens and Sámi. They appear to go through a period in which they are conquered by the Gauls and remain subject to them (especially in Jutland). This leads to a good deal of cultural cross-contamination, with Germans exhibiting Celtic influences (in the form of words and names), and Celts exhibiting similar Germanic influences. This cross-cultural exchange is especially noticeable in many Belgic tribes of the first century BC, raising the possibility that they are the ones dominating the Germans at this time, not the Gauls (effectively Eastern Celts as opposed to the Western Celts of Gaul). Subsequent to this (and probably triggered by this period of Gallic control), the Germans begin expanding south-westwards along the North Sea coast and eastwards along the shores of the Baltic. At this stage the Germanic peoples appear to be at least ninety per cent Swedish in origin, with only the Vandali and Teutonespossibly of a Jutland peninsula origin (although other tribes such as the Sicambri also have a claim). Both these latter tribes have Gallic names, supporting the theory that the Jutland peninsula is conquered by Gauls (or Belgics), and southern Sweden is probably made a satellite subject region. The indicators for this are the very evident influence on the Germanics by Gauls in borrowed words, borrowed names, borrowed gods and shared customs. To the south-east, the Scythians acquire much of the Caucasian and Cimmerian cultural legacy and mix them with their own Ponto-Caucasian cultural elements. These oriental influences appreciably change the material culture of central Europe. TheBaltic and Germanic cultures in northern Europe remain untouched by the Scythian incursions, but the new cultural elements reached them through continuous commercial relations with central Europe, notably via the Lusatian culture.

Spoiler

Germanic settlements have spread only a little further south-westwards along the North Sea coastline, and eastwards into the heart of modern Poland (seemingly the driving force behind the Przeworsk culture) and northern Germany. One exception to this is the tribe of the Bastarnae (whose ethnic background is highly uncertain), who have already reached the Balkans by this time. Between this point and the beginning of the first century AD, expansion and migration continue this slow progression, extending into modern Belarus, Russia and Ukraine, and southwards towards modern Switzerland, central Germany, andCzechia, Slovakia and Hungary. Some Celtic groups are pushed into migrating away from the expansion, while others such as the Marsigni may take refuge in forests and on mountains to be assimilated by Germans in time. The later Anglo-Saxon advance through Britain can be used as a basic model for what happens when aggressive Germans encounter Celts, as they do from this point onwards. The Celts are conquered, adopt the new language, retain their cultural habits and legends (the Saxon Herne the Hunter, for example, is the Celtic god Cernunnos) and continue as 'fake' Germans, eventually to become indistinguishable from them. Germanic warrior elite takeovers of Gaulish tribes is covered in detail in the introduction for the Angrivarii tribe. It also seems possible that a series of Germanic tribes with a variant of the 'wiros' suffix in their names gain it from Gaulish: the Ampsivarii, Chasuarii, Chattuarii, Hetwara (a later name for the Chattuarii), and theWarini may simply mean 'the men'. Other tribes exhibit cross-cultural influences in their names (at least), including the Seduniand Sedusii.
c.230 - 220 BC	The Bastarnae may be a mixture of various Germanic tribes, or they may be entirely Celtic. In 220 BC they take part in the siege of Olbia (in modern southern Ukraine) on the Black Sea coast. If they do indeed contain Germanic elements then these have moved far in advance of their fellow Germanics in Northern Europe. In 231 BC another potential (if extremely unlikely) Germanic group appears in northern Italy. These are the Gaesatae, Celtic mercenaries who carry a name that may be interpreted in Germanic terms (although a purely Celtic explanation is much more likely).
113 - 102 BC	A large-scale incursion of the sea into Jutland around the period between 120-114 BC is known as the Cimbrian Flood. It permanently alters the shape of the coastline and drastically affects the way people live in the region. It is probably this event which affects the Teutones (Teutons) and Cimbri. These two peoples migrate en mass from their homeland, heading southwards towards Italy. Along the way they pick up the Celto-Germanic Helvetii peoples (in territory that later becomesFranconia), and possibly spark a secondary migration of Belgic peoples from the Netherlands and northern Gaul into south-eastern Britain. Along their way they also drop off fragments such as the Atuatuci, and their passage sparks a partial tribal movement by elements of the Boii who invade the Norican region south of the Danube, and it is either the Cimbri or the Boii who attack theScordisci Celts in the Balkans.

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c.60 - 58 BC

Ariovistus is a leader of the Suevi and other allied Germanic peoples in the second quarter of the first century BC, and at least up to 58 BC. He and his followers take part in a war in Gaul, assisting the Gallic Arverni and Sequani to defeat their rivals the Aeduii. He subsequently settles with large numbers of his followers in conquered Gallic territory in the Alsace region, but is defeated at the Battle of Vosges and driven back over the Rhine in 58 BC by Julius Caesar's Roman legions.

55 BC

As recorded by Julius Caesar in his work, Commentarii de Bello Gallico, the Tencteri and Usipetes tribes are driven out of their tribal lands in Germania by the militarily dominant Suevi. This probably places them on the middle Rhine. Throughout the winter they attempt to resettle, but fail to find any land. Their wanderings bring them to the mouth of the Rhine, in the territory of the Belgic Menapii, who are located on both sides of the river. The Germans attack them, forcing them to withdraw to the western side of the Rhine, where the Menapii are able to defend the river line for some time. They also attack the Condrusiand Eburones tribes. Feigning a withdrawal to lure out the Menapii, the Tencteri and Usipetes defeat them, capture their ships and occupy many of their villages for the winter. Caesar, alarmed at this threat to the north of territory in Gaul that he has already conquered, takes a force into the region. After much diplomatic effort and some delays, he attacks the Germanic tribes and drives them back into Germania with heavy losses. Both tribes follow the east bank of the Rhine upstream and find refuge with the Sicambri. They remain settled in these lands for much of the remainder of their existence. Caesar crosses the Rhine to follow them and to show the Germans that Romans are not afraid to stage a counter-invasion. Another reason is that a portion of the cavalry of the Usipetes and Tencteri had not been present at the recent battle. Instead they had proceeded to the territories of the Sicambri to join this tribe, remaining defiant, while uniquely amongst the peoples across the Rhine, the Ubii petition Caesar for help against the oppressive Suevi who until recently have been ruled by the powerful Ariovistus.

now with Marcomanni.

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. The Marcomanni were one such Germanic tribe, and by the first century BC they were located in central western Germany, between the massive homeland of the Boii to the east and the Rhine to the west. They were neighboured by theHermunduri, Quadi, and Tulingi. The Marcomanni name (using its Roman spelling), or Markmen in modern English, was formed from the word for 'borderers'. This was a name that is very similar is that of the Belgic Ambiani tribe. The word was formed from the proto-Celtic *ambi-, which is a preposition for 'around'. In Latin this is 'ambitus', meaning border, edge, extent or going around, circuit. So the Ambiani would probably be the 'people of the border'. Marcomanni meant much the same thing - the 'bordermen'. They were probably a group that had only recently been formed, perhaps from the division of a larger body of Germanic people. The Marcomanni are best known for their destruction of the Boiohæmum, the land of the Celtic Boii. However, it seems very likely that this was instead a Marcomanni takeover, one realised by a Germanic military elite moving in to become the new nobility, and ruling over an unchanged population. The same thing seems to have happened when the Slavic Czechs migrated into the region several centuries later. There exist Czechs today who have an appearance that is not typically Slavic and not particularly Nordic (Germanic), which is what would be expected if the population was entirely Slavic or Germanic respectively. The most important pointer for this supposition is that the Marcomanni leader, Maroboduus or Marbod, has a Gaulish name. There were several instances of Celtic tribes being led by Germanic rulers, or vice versa, and in this case it would seem that a powerful fighting force of Germans calling themselves the 'Bordermen' ('Marcomen'), led by a Gaul, took over the Boii. The 'Borderman' name itself is a potential give-away, as it was probably the Boii border to which they were referring. Following their successful takeover, the Boii simply changed their name and language under the new administration. Controversy exists as to whether particular tribes were German or Gaulish (Celtic), and the Marcomanni are one of those tribes which may straddle both definitions. The subject is discussed in greater detail in the accompanying feature (see link, right). Overall, the Suevi group to which the Marcomanni were ascribed were a confederation of Germanic peoples which included the tribes of the Alemanni, Hermunduri, Langobards, Quadi, Semnones, and the Warini, along with the Suebi themselves. Some elements of the Marcomanni formed part of the Bavarii confederation at the start of the sixth century. The term 'Suevi' seems to have been used almost casually to describe a wide range of German peoples. The Heruli may also have been involved and the Angles in the Cimbric Peninsula certainly were. (Information by Peter Kessler, with additional information by Edward Dawson, from Power and Status in the Roman Empire, AD 193-284, Inge Mennen, from Germania, Tacitus, from Agricola, from The Harleian Miscellany: A Collection of Scarce, Curious and Entertaining Tracts Volume 4, William Oldys & Thomas Park, from First Book of the Annals, Cornelius Tacitus, and from External Link: The Works of Julius Caesar: Gallic Wars.)

feature link.

https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesEurope/BarbarianTribes01.htm

now Both Suebii and Borderman are linked.

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60? BC

Ariovistus is a leader of the Suevi and other allied Germanic peoples in the second quarter of the first century BC, and at least up to 58 BC. Displaying the interconnected nature of Germanics and Celts at this time, he is a fluent speaker of Gaulish, and one of his two wives is the daughter of Vocion of the Norican kingdom. The Marcomanni also appear to exhibit cross-cultural links of this nature, albeit half a century later, although the events of 58 BC show that they already exist as a separate entity. This can probably be taken as confirmation that they already border the Boii in central western Germany. The Aeduii appeal to Rome for relief from Ariovistus' alleged cruelty towards them. Julius Caesar, in his role first as consul and then as governor of Gaul (from 58 BC), appears to pursue a diplomatic course that will deliberately end in warfare. Caesar is also informed that a further hundred units of Suevi are about to cross the Rhine under Nasua and Cimberius. The showdown happens at the Battle of Vosges following an unsuccessful face-to-face parley between the two leaders. The Suevi host lines up in units of tribal groups starting with the Harudes, Marcomanni, Triboci, Vangiones, Nemetes,Sedusii and the core of the Suebi themselves. Superior Roman tactics breaks that line and the Suevi host makes a run for the Rhine. Ariovistus makes it across, but many of his allies now turn on him and the Suebi. It is Caesar who records the existence of the Suevi, differentiating them from the tribe of the Cherusci, but now they avoid the Rhine for generations, concentrating on building a fresh confederation in central Germania.

these were my early point. Roman superior tactic make germans improved to face them.

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Nero Claudius Drusus Germanicus, stepson of Emperor Augustus, is appointed governor of the Rhine region of Gaul. He launches the first major Roman campaigns across the Rhine and begins the conquest of Germania. He starts with a successful campaign that subjugates the Sicambri. Later in the same year he leads a naval expedition along the North Sea coast, conquering the Batavi and the Frisii, and defeating the Chauci near the mouth of the Weser. In 11 BC, he conquers the Bructeri, Usipetes and Marsi, extending Roman control into the Upper Weser. In 10 BC, he launches a campaign against the Chatti and the resurgent Sicambri, subjugating both. The following year he conquers the Mattiaci, while also defeating the Marcomanni and Cherusci, the latter being taken care of near the Elbe.

Drusus is killed in a fall from his horse during his fourth campaign, and his death deprives Rome of one its best generals. However, it also ends the campaign against the Germanic tribes, and may even be responsible for creating the circumstances in which one Maroboduus becomes king of the Marcomanni.

Romans are focus in certain locations. they aren't much worried about Marcomanni.

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Perhaps forced to move by the Roman campaigns of 12-9 BC, migrations of Marcomanni and Quadi from the region of northern Bavaria and the River Main lead them eastwards into the homeland of the Boii (in later Bohemia), where that Celtic tribe is subjugated by the newcomers. Marbod forms a confederation of tribes which includes Langobards, Lugii, Marcomanni, Quadi, and Semnones. Possibly this incorporates remnants of the alliances of Ariovistus of the Suevi in 58 BC. Following their successful takeover by the Marcomanni, the Boii simply change their name and language under the new administration.

AD 5 - 6

Roman Emperor Tiberius undertakes campaigns against various Germanic tribes in an effort to extend the frontiers of the empire from the Rhine to the Elbe. The Langobards take part in attacks led by the Marcomanni but their power is broken by the legions of Tiberius. For the Marcomanni, the outcome is slightly different. The expedition of Tiberius is the high-water mark of Roman invasion onto Teutonic soil. When a Roman fleet that is sailing up the Elbe establishes communications with a Roman army upon the river's bank, it might well be thought that the designs of Augustus are about to be accomplished, and that the boundary of the empire is to be traced by connecting the Danube to the Elbe. The Marcomanni have to be attacked because they lay across this would-be link. However, an insurrection breaks out in Illyricum and the presence of the Roman army is required. A hasty peace is concluded with Maroboduus, leaving him in firm possession once again of the Boiohæmum.

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War breaks out between Arminius of the Cherusci and Maroboduus. The cause is Maroboduus' decision not to join the Cherusci-Roman war of AD 9 in common cause with his fellow Germans, although the two are clearly also rivals for superiority amongst the tribes. Now the Cherusci join with some of Maroboduus' own Suevi subjects, the Langobards and the Semnones, to stage a revolt against his power. Following an indecisive battle, Maroboduus withdraws by AD 18 into the territory that later forms the core of Bohemia. In the following year, a nobleman named Catualda, who had been exiled by Maroboduus (with help from Vibil of theHermunduri), now returns (it has been suggested that this could be a Roman plot to sow discord). Maroboduus is defeated by him and is deposed. Forced to flee, he travels to Italy and is imprisoned by Tiberius in Ravenna for eighteen years before his death in AD 37. Catualda gains the leadership of the Quadi, and while it is not known who commands the Marcomanni now, this may also be Catualda.
19 - c.25	Catualda?		Former Marcomanni exile. Also ruled the Quadi.
19	Catualda of the Marcomanni bears a Gaulish name, with the first part, 'katu' or 'catu' meaning 'battle', and the second part being rather obscure, but possibly being a mangled-by-Romans 'wallo' plus something with a 'd' in it (-ualda, the terminal 'u' and initial 'w' would have merged), making it most likely (by Occam's Razor) that it is an equivalent to the seventh century AD British name of Cadwallader (in Welsh, Cadwaladr).
50	Vannius of the Quadi shows an inclination to rebuild the Marcomanni confederation, so Rome instigates an insurrection to solve what it sees as a problem on its borders. The regnum Vannianum of the Quadi breaks up following the insurrection which is led by the nephews of Vannius, Wangio and Sido, supported by the Hermunduri. Vannius is deposed and later dies in unknown circumstances. Wangio gains the leadership of the Quadi while Sido gains that of the Hermunduri. Who now rules the Marcomanni is entirely unknown.
98	Towards the end of the century, Rome establishes two provinces on the border territory between Gaul and Germania, calling them Germania Superior and Germania Inferior. Cities such as Aachen, Cologne, Mainz, Speyer, Trier, and Worms are all founded within these provinces by Rome and all of them become important medieval cities. Writing around this time, Tacitus mentions the Suevi, listing their constituent tribes which cover the larger part of Germania. Clearly in the century and-a-half since they were led by Ariovistus they have expanded considerably. Noted for their custom of twisting their hair and binding it up in a knot, the Marcomanni are still counted as part of the Suebic confederation.

Things started becomes Dangerous here.

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160s - 170s	Ballomar		King during the Marcomannic Wars.
c.160	According to Cassius Dio, just before the Marcomannic Wars that begin in AD 166, a host of 6,000 Langobards and Ubiicross the Danube and invade Pannonia. The two tribes are defeated by Rome and halt their attacks. They send Ballomar as their ambassador to Aelius Bassus, the governor of Pannonia. The two agree peace terms and the Langobards and Ubii are allowed to cross back over the Danube. The Langobards return to their territory on the lower Elbe. Perhaps it is this wandering that finishes off the minor Calucones tribe in that region, with them either being absorbed by the Langobards or perhaps the Marcomanni.
166 - 169	A new Marcomanni confederation is formed which also includes elements from many other tribes including the Buri, Iazyges, Quadi, Sarmatians, and Suebi. Under the leadership of Ballomar, they cross the Danube and invade Dacia. They penetrate as far as Italy, forcing the Roman emperor, Marcus Aurelius, to spend the rest of his life campaigning in the Danube region to contain the problem, which he does (to an extent) with a further defeat of them in 180.

we are focus only Marcomanni.

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177 - 179	At the end of a renewed campaign by Marcus Aurelius against the Marcomanni, the emperor has 40,000 Romans posted on Marcomannic and Quadian territory in various garrisons and has the Cotini and Osi resettled from Slovakia to southern Pannonia. The newly freed territories are mainly settled by the Quadi, although this expansion often brings them into conflict with Rome in the third century, and the assassination of their ruler in 215 is ordered by Rome.
180	Marcus Aurelius dies while conducting what would have been a final Roman campaign against the most dangerous barbarian Germanic tribes across the Danube. It is formed of an alliance which is under Marcomanni leadership and includes Dacians, Peucini, and Sarmatians. As it is, the problem is never fully resolved.
c.181 - 182	Following the death of Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius and further Germanic unrest, the Buri petition Emperor Commodus for peace. At this point they are destitute, having spent their resources on war. Fortunately, they now meet the empire's qualifications for financial aid, in that they are destitute and potentially dangerous, so they receive the help they need. The Marcomanni are enjoined from seeking retaliation. As they are also now destitute and seeking terms, they comply.
254	By this time, the Suevi have formed a wide-ranging confederation of tribes that are all known individually but which are counted as being Suevi. The vast number of tribes included in the confederation include the Aestii, Angles, Aviones, Buri,Cotini, Eudoses, Gutones, Hermunduri (who have virtually ceased to exist as a recognisable independent people),Langobards, Lugii (a name applied to several tribes: the Harii, Helisii, Helveconae, Manimi, and Naharvali), Marcomanni, Marsigni, Naristi, Nuitones, Osi, Quadi, Reudigni, Semnones, Sitones, Suardones, Suiones (Swedes), and the Warini.
fl 250s	Attalus		King of the Marcomanni.
254 - 258	In 254, the Marcomanni, presumably with various allies, invade Pannonia. By 258, Roman Emperor Gallienus concludes an alliance with the Marcomanni king, Attalus (mentioned by the fourth century historian, Sextus Aurelius Victor). This is probably part of a process to outsource the defence of the empire's northern borders to foreign agents, but it also allows Marcomanni settlement in Pannonia, probably also as border guards.
374 - 375	The Romans assassinate the ruler of the Quadi, which angers not only the Quadi themselves, but also the Marcomanni and Sarmatians. They invade Pannonia, albeit briefly (with the Marcomanni presumably helping the others across the border that they are supposed to be defending). The following year, Emperor Valentinian I punishes the Quadi by staging a retaliatory invasion of their territory. The brief war ends with peace terms being agreed, and the event marks the last time the Romans enter Slovakia.
375 - 400	The Suevi confederation is disrupted by the Hunnic invasions. The same invasion forces many Germanic tribes to move or submit to the powerful newcomers, but the Marcomanni effectively vanish in the sudden shifting of populations that takes place. Survivors may find refuge amongst the Alemanni, Rugii, Suebi, and Vandali. However, they may retain a separate identity, perhaps as a sub-tribe. There is a mention of a 'Queen Fritigil of the Marcomanni around this time.
c.396	?		Unnamed king of the Marcomanni.
c.396		Fritigil	Wife and queen.
c.396	It is around this time that a 'Queen Fritigil' is mentioned (by Paulinus) in connection with the Marcomanni, suggesting that they have retained their identity despite apparent destruction during the Hunnic invasions. Queen Fritigil accepts conversion to Christianity from St Ambrose, bishop of Milan, who also corresponded with her on church matters. Following her conversion, her husband and his subjects follow. The wording suggests that the queen is not the ruler of the Marcomanni - instead that duty falls to her unnamed husband.

 

https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianGermanics.htm

https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianMarcomanni.htm

there are more but the topic is to talk certain factions like Suebi or Marcomanni.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen

[Genava55]

11 hours ago, av93 said:

bows (more used than celts)

Is there any evidence for this? I don't think Tacitus said anything about bows and I know only one find in Vaedebro. It is a common thing in videogames but I don't know from where it comes. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

13 hours ago, Genava55 said:

@av93 Ok I have consider a bit about it and maybe we can call them "Early Germans" (Proto-Germans is a bit ugly) and we can use my idea about the Marcomanni as a confederation and alliance of different tribes. This factions should represents the "Germans" from the Pre-Roman Era and the beginning of the Roman Era, up to the Marcomannic wars.

However, what this faction will bring as new mechanics ? Maybe I have an idea. What about a customizable roster for the player through tribes choices in his confederation/alliance?

For example each tribe could brings three units and the player can choose three tribes from a list. Each tribe having some generic units in common and some unique units. For example the Cherusci have cheap pikemen (yes, there are sources about it), the Cimbri have a chainmail swordsman champion, the Tencteri have a champion cavalry unit, the Lugii have a Celtic like unit, the Suebi have a spearman and strong javelinists etc. etc.

I like the idea of customizable roster, it reminds me of AoM. This only an idea I throw here. What do you think about it?

Proto Germans...(huh).

Quote

from c.2000 BC

Following their gradual arrival over the previous few centuries, the chariot-driving Late Neolithic Celto-Ligurian tribes are in control of large areas of central and western Europe. Represented by Bell Beaker culture, and with some knowledge of copper-working, they begin moving into the British Isles. Other Indo-Europeans arrive in territory between the Balkans and Persia, where the Thracians and Iranians form two large groups. The Balts occupy most of what is now northern Poland and large areas of western Russia. Illyrian tribes occupy an area of southern Europe between the Italian peninsula and modern Greece. Indo-Europeans have already moved from the Danube region into the Italian peninsula, and warlike Greek tribes (the early Mycenaeans) into the Mediterranean area

The Yamnaya Horizon theory saw many semi-nomadic pastoral tribes migrate huge distances over many generations, helped by their use of four-wheeled wagons and chariots, and the petroglyphs shown here (from northern Mesopotamia) form one of history's earliest recordings of these chariots

The proto-Teutons enter and dominate most of the Scandinavian peninsula, where a racially distinct Germanic Nordic develops from a mixture of invading Indo-European Nordics and Old Stone Age survivors. Once there they develop their traditional pantheon of deities to include more earthly battles and expand the number of gods (see feature link). Indo-European tribes soon possess most of Europe at the expense of the earlier stock who are now either pushed into the more inaccessible parts of the Continent (such as the Aquitani around the Pyrenees), or become the lower strata of society, the untouchables of Europe.
c.2000 - 1000 BC	During the last few centuries prior to the Yamnaya horizon (which saw the proto-Indo-European ancestors of the now proto-Germanics begin their migrations), cannabis may have been travelling from the Pontic-Caspian steppes to Mesopotamia and the early city states of Sumer. Greek kdnnabis and proto-Germanic *baniptx seem to be related to the Sumerian kuriibu. Sumerian dies out as a widely spoken language after around 2000 BC, so the connection must be a very ancient one. The international trade of the Late Uruk period (circa 3300-3100 BC) provides a suitable context for this trade. The link between the early, proto-Indo-European form of the word cannabis (and therefore its probable Sumerian origin of kuriibu) to the proto-Germanic form requires a few steps. In the late Bronze Age, proto-Germanic groups are pretty isolated in southern Scandinavia and along the southern shore of the Baltic Sea, but are theorised to be in contact with the proto-Celts (and possibly even dominated by them). In support of this is the realisation that 'cannabis' would need to pass through Celticto reach its Germanic form: the initial 'k' would be a 'kw' in Q-Celtic (of the First Wave), transformed to a 'p' in P-Celtic (of theSecond Wave), and then transformed into a 'b' in Belgic (northern Celtic), and finally adopted into Germanic. This appears to fit in with the idea that Belgic Celts dominate northern Europe prior to the rise of the Germanic tribes around the fifth century BC. By 1600 BC, the people of the central European Unetice culture have established commercial relations with the Mycenaeans. A transcontinental amber trade has already begun at about the same time as the Baltic Bronze Age, and amber has already been in some demand by the Uneticians themselves. Now, though, the amber trade reaches an amazing volume. The Uneticians import their amber from the Balts and from the Germanic peoples in Jutland, and it is estimated that at least eighty per cent of the graves of classical Unetice contain amber beads.
1000s BC?	Norse legend mentions gods who are described as members of two groups: the Aesir and the Vanir. This latter is very suggestive of early contact between Germanics in Scandinavia and the seagoing Veneti living along the Gulf of Gdansk and the Vistula. However, the exact origins of the Vanir and the war between them and the Aesir are open to intense speculation. There is strong evidence among the various peoples of the Indo-European diaspora that two distinct groups of deities are honoured. This appears to be best preserved among the Hindus, who talk about them as Devas (suras) and Asuras (not-suras). Some cultures later preserve worship of both; others choose one or the other and indicate some sort of conflict between them. The Aesir appear to be Asuras. Two Hindu Asuras, known as Thor and Ermin among Germanics, appear in the Norse pantheon. One thing that can be said with some certainly is that the Vanir do not seem to be Suras/Devas. That leaves the possibility that the Aesir/Vanir war is a legendary account of a human war, but whether between Germanics against Celts, or against theKvens whom they are steadily displacing or absorbing in southern Scandinavia is unclear, A war involving Germanics is a certainty; in fact, two wars. It is already known that the Indo-European tribes who have evolved into Germanics have entered Scandinavia and have displaced someone, almost certainly Finno-Ugric speakers or even older populations. There's also evidence that Celts enter Jutland. So which of these interactions with the Germans is the cause of war? That's a very good question. Both have names that could evolve over time into 'Vanir'. Veneti could lose its 't' due to softening, while the 'k' of Kven would easily soften to 'ch', leaving 'ven'. So who are the wanes/vanir? Anything further would be speculation.
c.1000 BC	Latins and other Indo-European Italic tribes continue to migrate into Italy. West Italics first, and East Italics later, the latter largely displacing the first group. Celtic tribes arrive in Iberia, probably in two waves, the first traditionally placed around 900 BC. More recently, however, there has been a tendency to identify the early arrivals as Indo-European or proto-Celtic tribes and argue for a process of infiltration over an extended period, from around 1000 to 300 BC, rather than invasions. The first arrivals appear to establish themselves in Catalonia, having probably entered via the eastern passages of the Pyrenees. Later groups (more identifiably Celtic) venture west through the Pyrenees to occupy the northern coast of the peninsula, and south beyond the Ebro and Duero basins as far as the Tagus valley. It could be the strong Iberian presence that prevents the Celts from continuing down the Mediterranean coast.

Proto Germans are mostly for another timeframe. at last with that name.

https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianGermanics.htm

[Genava55]

1 minute ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Proto Germans

Proto-Germans designate the linguistic group of the Proto-Germanic languages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_parent_language

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic_language

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

Is there any evidence for this? I don't think Tacitus said anything about bows and I know only one find in Vaedebro. It is a common thing in videogames but I don't know from where it comes. 

Quote

It depends on how far you want to go back and what period you refer to as Proto-Germanic. Germanic tribes went through what they called the Volkerwanderung, or, Migration Period and this came in successive waves over hundreds of years. Germanic people are, of course, Indo-European people and there are many theories about where they came from. Many say off the steppes of Eurasia as originally a nomadic, pastoral people. Many Proto-Indo-European words back that up. Hence, the horse and the chariot. If that is the case, their original bows were probably composite bows of steppe nomadic peoples. Over time, as the chariot was abandoned for all but ceremonial use, they would have gone to longbows as they were foot-fighters after settling. At that time, they tended to adopt shield-wall, spear, and sword tactics. However, bows were used often as well. Just my opinion, but the bows were probably of a flatbow design, though perhaps a D type longbow could have been used.

One can look towards the Scandinavian God Ullr and the Goddess Skadi and see that both of these deities were related to archery with Ullr specifically a God of archery and bowmen and Skadi a Goddess of bowmen and hunters. Lore related to Them may reveal some valuable clues. 

  The Elder Futhark Rune Eihwaz means "yew" but also specifically a bow made from yew. This gives us a valuable clue as to what wood was preferred for bowmaking. You can look up various translations of the Rune Poems and see references made to yew bows in talking about Eihwaz. So, again, there we have the critical clue that tells us what the preferred wood was for making the bows of the period. Some also say the Rune Elhaz (or Algiz as some know it) relates to yew as well and also to yew bows. These Runes predate the development of the English longbow for quite some time.

  In addition, there is the Anglo-Frisian Rune Yr which is specifically "yew bow". So, again, yew is still the preferred wood for bows when the Anglo Saxons went over to England. Again, this Rune predates the development of the English longbow for quite some time.

   Also mentioned as bowmaking wood of the period is elm. This would have been their secondary wood. It is interesting to note that the Cosmic World Tree in Germanic myth is Yggdrasil which, while it is debated, is thought to be a Yew by many scholars. Also, in Germanic myth, First Man is made from an Ash Tree while First Woman is made from an Elm. Ash is what was used for spearshafts, Elm was used for some bowmaking, while Yew made the best bows. Whenever trees and wood is mentioned in any ancient myth, that's where you'll find the crucial clues as to what was used for weapons, both for hunting and for war. One's life depended on the weapons, thus, the wood had to have had some Divine origin or link. 

from random forum following adequate words. key words can be useful.

http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=48015.0

not too much random... primitive archery.

[av93]

6 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Is there any evidence for this? I don't think Tacitus said anything about bows and I know only one find in Vaedebro. It is a common thing in videogames but I don't know from where it comes. 

Yeah, I was talking abou what I seen in videogames, except the pikemen, that I think that I saw it in a historical video

[Lion.Kanzen]

On 4/22/2019 at 12:27 PM, av93 said:

 

The real plan for the main distribution, is to not add more civilizations. what would be the specials features of a Germanic civ? (Marcomanni confederation, if you want to be more specific?)

 

is not planned to be in 0 A.D vanilla. mostly of my plans are related to Terra Magna or DE.

[av93]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

is not planned to be in 0 A.D vanilla. mostly of my plans are related to Terra Magna or DE.

Yeah, of course! But I was answering to Genava55.

[Stan`]

2 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

is not planned to be in 0 A.D vanilla. mostly of my plans are related to Terra Magna or DE.

Actually 0 - 500 is part II. If the assets are done we'll reuse them  

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, Stan` said:

Actually 0 - 500 is part II. If the assets are done we'll reuse them  

Spoiler

 

these invasions of the Cimbrii were before the 2nd century B.C. I know perfectly well that we are almost leaving factions aside, like the Parthians or the Armenians or some Germanic tribes that attacked the Roman Empire before the first century A.D. (on that is based the second part besides the western Roman Empire).

I mentioned it to Nescio, although I'm sure he knows it. I know this project since 2004. and since 2011 I approached, I learned about the other factions, which I also have reserved in my mind.

I must clarify those factions I seen the leaks of which are, are beyond what I imagined, but by commitment you do not show them (the team), I know that Wow ... knows them, was a member of that team.

 

 

just to make everything clear.

 

with the second part of your sentence, also for that reason I focus more on the mods, the Wowget... caught my attention by satisfying my desire for new material

My efforts this year are there. This year at least.  (MODS) .

I know they're going to put more content, that's a drug for me. the project doesn't get boring, you said it in another post. 

[Sundiata]

Random German Art Refs, units and buildings

Spoiler

 

"Lanstrop is an Iron Age settlement in Dortmund (North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany)"

 

"Graphical reconstruction of a farm from Germanic Iron Age with fences, gates and outbuilding outside fence, excavated at Lithauens Alle Øst in Høje Tåstrup near København. From Danmarks Oldtid by Jørgen Jensen - Gyldendal"

 

The Iron Age village of Hodde in Denmark during the 1st Century BCE 

 

"Reconstructed Iron Age house from Hjemsted Oldtidspark between Ribe and Tønder"

 

"Denmark reconstructed Iron Age house"

 

 

"Teutons on the hike"

 

 

Teutoburg Forest