Mauryan siege engine

[fatherbushido]

It was mainly thought around 2012-05-16 that Mauryans wouldn't get siege engine (in fact, elephants would be their siege engines).

It seems that it can be reconsidered now.

3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Mauryans were acquainted with siege technology at the time. There's no reason to not give them a catapult.

Do we think of that kind of things?

https://hi.wikipedia.org/wiki/अजातशत्रु_(मगध_का_राजा)

(hindi version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajatashatru)

That person cite also (without refs) many such weapons:

https://www.quora.com/What-were-the-siege-weapons-used-by-ancient-Indians

I will try to find refs in my ancient warfare books.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Eyecandy?

[LordGood]

A traction trebuchet would be a real pain, and rams would be redundant with elephants 

[fatherbushido]

In "With Arrow, Sword, And Spear - A History of Warfare in the Ancient World" of Bradford:

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Elephant was used against elephant, but in the melee an elephant would trample and crush anything that got in its way.

Nothing else really relevant in the Mauryans section.

[fatherbushido]

Arthaśāstra writen under Chanakya is an interesting reading

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Arthashastra

Book II
 

Quote

 

CHAPTER XVIII. THE SUPERINTENDENT OF THE ARMOURY.

THE Superintendent of the Armoury shall employ experienced workmen of tried ability to manufacture in a given time and for fixed wages wheels, weapons, mail armour, and other accessory instruments for use in battles, in the construction or defence of forts, or in destroying the cities or strongholds of enemies.

All these weapons and instruments shall be kept in places suitably prepared for them. They shall not only be frequently dusted and transferred from one place to another, but also be exposed to the sun. Such weapons as are likely to be affected by heat and vapour (úshmopasneha) and to be eaten by worms shall be kept in safe localities. They shall also be examined now and then with reference to the class to which they belong, their forms, their characteristics, their size, their source, their value, and their total quantity.

Sarvatobhadra, jamadagnya, bahumukha, visvásagháti, samgháti, yánaka, parjanyaka, ardhabáhu, and úrdhvabáhu are immoveable machines (sthirayantrám).

Pánchálika, devadanda, súkarika, musala, yashti, hastiváraka, tálavrinta, mudgara, gada, spriktala, kuddála, ásphátima, audhghátima, sataghni, trisúla, and chakra are moveable machines.

 

 

 

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Of the first floor, five parts (are to be taken) for the formation of a hall (sálá), a well, and a boundary-house; two-tenths of it for the formation of two platforms opposite to each other (pratimanchau); an upper storey twice as high as its width; carvings of images; an upper-most storey, half or three-fourths as broad as the first floor; side walls built of bricks; on the left side, a staircase circumambulating from left to right; on the right, a secret staircase hidden in the wall; a top-support of ornamental arches (toranasirah) projecting as far as two hastas; two door-panels, (each) occupying three-fourths of the space; two and two cross-bars (parigha, to fasten the door); an iron-bolt (indrakila) as long as an aratni (24 angulas); a boundary gate (ánidváram) five hastas in width; four beams to shut the door against elephants; and turrets (hastinakha) (outside the rampart) raised up to the height of the face of a man, removable or irremovable, or made of earth in places devoid of water.

 

[Nescio]

Although I do know next to nothing about India, I am aware that the Mauryan empire emerged as an indirect result of Alexander's Indian campaigns, during and after which many Greeks settled in and around the Indus Valley. Those Greek city states in India survived for centuries, conducting trade and diplomacy with their non-Greek neighbours, and supplying them with Greek culture, products, and mercenaries; undoubtedly siege weapons were available as well (the Macedonians had skilled engineers, and most types of siege weapons are well attested as being used by Alexander's army).

Other interesting Greek influences are coinage and sculpture (the mouth and ears typical of Classical Greek sculpture were assimilated into Buddhist sculpture, which later spread from India to Tibet, China, India, and Japan), as well as legend (Alexander was incorporated in mythologies throughout Southern Asia, from Persia/Iran to Java/Indonesia).

Anyway, although other siege weapons would certainly be nice, at the very least I'd like to see an Indian battering ram (in my 0abc mod I'm currently using the Celtic visual actor for the Mauryans as well, which is far from perfect).

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

10 hours ago, fatherbushido said:

https://www.quora.com/What-were-the-siege-weapons-used-by-ancient-Indians

According to that guy they had torsion catapults. I have seen other references to the Indians having catapults. Not sure where.

[LordGood]

Torsion only describes whats powering the thing. Torsion engines include ballistae and scorpions, later mangonels and onagers. Its not a real good description of a thing, like saying my car runs on gas, you know the kind

[fatherbushido]

We can perhaps find some info in Indika, Megasthenes fragments (really interesting by itself)

 

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This also consists of six divisions, with five members to each. One division is appointed to cooperate with the admiral of the fleet, another with the superintendent of the bullock-trains which are used for transporting engines of war, food for the soldiers, provender for the cattle, and other military requisites.

 

[fatherbushido]

In https://www.ancient.eu/Magadha_Kingdom/

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The battle with the Lichchhavi republic was a long-drawn out affair, and we have descriptions of some of the military innovations that Ajatashatru implemented: one was a catapult that could throw heavy stones a great distance (mahashilakantaka),

Though I have no clue (I didn't read the page) if we are in pure history or in myst and litteracy (I found some stuff about lightning bolts weapons :p)

 There is a player called hunt from India in the lobby, perhaps can we ask more about: mahashilakantaka

[fatherbushido]

I just saw that a 'retired' artist is from India, perhaps have he some infos. In case, I ping him

@Shield Bearer

[fatherbushido]

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In the final battle outside the Lichchavi capital of Vaisali, Ajatshatru is said to have deployed catapults called Maha-sila-kantak (great stone thrower). The Jain texts also describe an interesting war-machine called Rath-musala, a horse-less chariot with attached rods that had a self-propelling mechanism, which enabled it to carry havoc deep into the enemy ranks.

https://sites.google.com/site/airavat/kingdomofmagadha

(not checked source)

[fatherbushido]

http://www.tara.tcd.ie/bitstream/handle/2262/39196/Chapter12.pdf?sequence=1

P147

[fatherbushido]

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“mahashilakantaka, a large sized catapult used for hurling rocks

http://repository.kln.ac.lk/bitstream/handle/123456789/11473/4-12.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

[fatherbushido]

But all that is in the Pre Mauryan era

[LordGood]

Pre-Mauryan could carry over, the Assyrian towered ram was phased out before the Assyrians lol. I think they were using smaller, more mobile rams as their siege weaponry evolved.

_{Don't quote me on that though, unless you want to}

[sphyrth]

Okay, so this is where that discussion of the Mauryan Siege Rams came from.

Well, I guess I can understand the Rams being more mobile than heavy. It IS an Elephant Civ after all.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

5 hours ago, sphyrth said:

Okay, so this is where that discussion of the Mauryan Siege Rams came from.

Well, I guess I can understand the Rams being more mobile than heavy. It IS an Elephant Civ after all.

IMHO, elephants shouldn't be siege weapons, especially since almost every civ knows how to use a covered log to bash down a gate. Elephants were definitely used against gates [see: Pyrrhus vs. Argos] and to bash through simple barriers and perhaps through huts and whatnot. But their primary military use was on the battlefield against masses of enemy infantry and cavalry.

[sphyrth]

On 10/23/2017 at 9:22 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

IMHO, elephants shouldn't be siege weapons, especially since almost every civ knows how to use a covered log to bash down a gate. Elephants were definitely used against gates [see: Pyrrhus vs. Argos] and to bash through simple barriers and perhaps through huts and whatnot. But their primary military use was on the battlefield against masses of enemy infantry and cavalry.

No. I wasn't talking about Elephants being the main Siege Weapons.
I meant that Elephants will chase down and trample rams very easily. Hence it's logical to make Indian Rams lighter and faster. And I think this is also the main reason they were not used that much.

[tysu]

The mauryans are under-powered with the lack of siege weapons ..Instead of not giving any siege units..Inclusion of a siege tower or an arrow launching siege unit can help.

This could be the model unit.

check the link below @ 1:54

 

[tysu]

This could help in understanding it better

[Skhorn]

Are those historically accurate?

[Stan`]

Yeah they have to be accurate for them to be included.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I vaguely remember reading about an arrow machine kind of like in the video, but I am not sure who used it and what time period. I am not even sure what time period that movie is trying to depict. 

[Skhorn]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I vaguely remember reading about an arrow machine kind of like in the video, but I am not sure who used it and what time period. I am not even sure what time period that movie is trying to depict. 

Some sort of time period were catapults can thrown a bunch of dudes landing perfectly to disrupt enemy lines.