Dropsites outside of the borders

[wraitii]

Let's keep keeping on bringing back proposals for things.

0 A.D. has one issue with territories: you can't make dropsites outside of your borders. This isn't a problem on some maps, but it is on others where resources are just not good enough inside your starting area. It also makes metal-poor maps sort of really force you to place CCs near resources, and it kind of plays in into why our metal mines are generally so large.

There's a few solutions, which you can vote on on the poll above and discuss below (I'll apply my "keep it on topic" policy, so may hide posts that go OT):

1. Keep as is right now, I don't think this is a real problem
2. Make dropsites buildable in neutral territory but not enemy territory
3. Add a new "storehouse" building for resources (all of them?) where you can't research techs, and has limited HO and cost, but allows you to gather outside your frontiers. You'll still need dropsites for techs, possibly dropsites could be given a gather aura?

I'm also accepting other proposals.

[wraitii]

My personal preference would be for a new storehouse building, that you could build somewhat quickly and cheaply, and would allow collecting any of the 4 resources, perhaps with a special new component that would give you only 75% of resources you deposit in it or something (without tech?). I think it'd open new gameplay avenues and mitigate the issues with our current system.

 

An alternative I would consider quite viable would be a technology, unlockable in perhaps town phase, that allows dropsites to be built in neutral territory.

[niektb]

Are farmsteads also affected by your proposal? (Hunting or gathering bushes outside your territory)

[wraitii]

Hm, I would say yes. For storehouses, I think we should consider it, but I'm honestly not sure how it would play out.

[niektb]

Or while we're at it, maybe we should discuss countryside implementations as a whole? I don't think you can disconnect just the storehouses from it.

Take for example Sibyllae Vox: in that mod storehouses (and farmsteads) cast a small territory which allows the player to build simple fortifications (like wooden towers and pallisades, stone defences are required to be built nearby a CC).

Also disallowing farming nearby a CC has a huge impact on how the countryside implementation would take shape

[wraitii]

Hm, tbh I'd like to keep the scope of those threads somewhat limited to mostly SVN stuff so that the changes are easy to implement

[Imarok]

One of the main reasons for expansion(building a new CC) is to be able to gather new resources. So why should a player build a new CC when he could build storehouses in neutral territory? (Sure its easier to defend, when you can build towers etc. But the need to build a new CC is far less imminent then...)

BTW: why should it be a problem when a player cannot reach resources in neutral territory without building a CC?

(Furthermore it would drastically reduce the usefulness of the mauryan worker elephant)

[niektb]

@Imarok: it makes the early stages of the game more interesting and less about creating champions asap. Combined with the reduced amount of gatherers per resource entity it highly encourages the players to expand early. This in turn encourages scouting, raiding, positioning your defensive armies (since with the reduced LOS and speed your army requires some time to move around) and whatnot...

@wraitii: yes, but as said I think you can't limit your scope on this particular topic. It requires an agreement on the bigger countryside concept first before you can step into implementation details

[Imarok]

Isn't that the case too, when you need to build a CC first?

[niektb]

@Imarok: no, because you need to be in Phase III before you can build a second one (and it's expensive too)

[DarcReaver]

3 minutes ago, Imarok said:

Isn't that the case too, when you need to build a CC first?

 

6 minutes ago, niektb said:

@Imarok: it makes the early stages of the game more interesting and less about creating champions asap. Combined with the reduced amount of gatherers per resource entity it highly encourages the players to expand early. This in turn encourages scouting, raiding, positioning your defensive armies (since with the reduced LOS and speed your army requires some time to move around) and whatnot...

@wraitii: yes, but as said I think you can't limit your scope on this particular topic. It requires an agreement on the bigger countryside concept first before you can step into implementation details

 

1 minute ago, niektb said:

@Imarok: no, because you need to be in Phase III before you can build a second one (and it's expensive too)

Actually, instead of using storehouses - I'd really suggest to give players an option for Civic Centers in phase I.

Reduce hitpoints, capture rate/points, number of units garrisoned, make them cheaper and allow them in phase I and reduce their influence radius by 40%.

[niektb]

Also read the first post in this topic to read more info on the why:

 

[Imarok]

4 minutes ago, niektb said:

@Imarok: no, because you need to be in Phase III before you can build a second one (and it's expensive too)

I think you need Phase 2 and not Phase 3

[niektb]

Oh, has been a while since I found the motivation to play it 

[wraitii]

Correct, CCs are available in phase 2.

29 minutes ago, Imarok said:

One of the main reasons for expansion(building a new CC) is to be able to gather new resources. So why should a player build a new CC when he could build storehouses in neutral territory? (Sure its easier to defend, when you can build towers etc. But the need to build a new CC is far less imminent then...)

BTW: why should it be a problem when a player cannot reach resources in neutral territory without building a CC?

(Furthermore it would drastically reduce the usefulness of the mauryan worker elephant)

You'd build a CC to deny resources to your opponent and to build buildings. I think it's not too much of a nerf.

It's a problem on RMs because some are just terribly balanced, so you end up without metal or stuff. It also sometimes forces you to place your CCs in a braindead way, not as strategical way.

Ok on the worker elephant I guess, it might need a buff.

[DarcReaver]

1 hour ago, wraitii said:

Correct, CCs are available in phase 2.

You'd build a CC to deny resources to your opponent and to build buildings. I think it's not too much of a nerf.

It's a problem on RMs because some are just terribly balanced, so you end up without metal or stuff. It also sometimes forces you to place your CCs in a braindead way, not as strategical way.

Ok on the worker elephant I guess, it might need a buff.

Actually main reason is to build Civic Centers is train additional workers. But since the training times are so short in 0AD and you can gather with hundred villagers/soldiers in your base area there is little need for another economic center somewhere else.

In AoE II it's usually 30 pop villagers when you enter Castle age to start booming after like 15-20 mins. In 0 Ad you have like 100 women/soldiers within the first 15 mins of the game. Which is a problem in itself but a different topic.

 

I'd go that route: multiple early Civic Centers which are actually captureable with small armies early on, less gathering spots (lower worker hardcap on resources in general. 2-6 gatherers instead of 8,10,12 or 24 ) and delay "real" military in phase II.

Edit: also who is voting "keep as it is"?... wtf srsly..

Edited March 23, 2017 by DarcReaver

[Lion.Kanzen]

In Delenda Est, is a good point,  you can go for resources that are far, but if the enemy starting to fight with you for them, you can create a CC to have full access and exclusivity to drain that resource and secure the zone.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

If we look at poll, look like the status quo is only at 36%, while change is at 64%.

[sphyrth]

My vote is inherently tied to the current state of the game: Keep as is.

Once a Resource Type has been added, then I will opt for a change... don't care what that is.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, sphyrth said:

My vote is inherently tied to the current state of the game: Keep as is.

 

The current state of the game is dire. This is about changing it.

[elexis]

Just putting it out there: 4. Make it a gamesetup option to allow dropsites in neutral territory that is disabled by default.