New map - Aeolian Islands

[AtlasMapper]

New ongoing work, Aeolian islands, in the north of Sicilia.

Here are 3 of these Islands, from north to south, Salina, Lipari, Vulcano.

And here is my map (ongoing work):

3D modeling is complete (will be some little adjustments), work in progress on texturing and adding entities.

Salina:

Lipari:

Vulcano:

I have some fun gameplay ideas with this map. The different islands allow to imagine nice games.

[AtlasMapper]

Texturing almost done, just need to complete Salina.
Vulcano + Lipari:

 

Spoiler

 

Teasers on Lipari:

Canneto bay + Pale Pomice

Spoiler

 

 

 

Valle Muria:
 

Spoiler

 

 

Teasers on Vulcano:

Spoiler

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

There is also a complex history on the Island, with lots of battles such as Carthaginians against Rome, and - again, like for my Crete map - battles involving Vandals. I have a question, are north factions, such as Vandals, Visigoths, or Ostrogoths, planned ? They are involved in a number of wars against factions already exisiting in 0AD, from Rome and Greeks to Gauls. I would love to have a Vandal faction to set up some scenario on my Aeolian Islands, Crete and Cyprus maps.

[niektb]

51 minutes ago, AtlasMapper said:

I have a question, are north factions, such as Vandals, Visigoths, or Ostrogoths, planned ?

No, these faction come in to play áfter 1 A.D. (where as the current game has a timeframe from 500 B.C. to 1 B.C.)

[AtlasMapper]

@niektb:Oh, I inderstand. I had a different timeframe in mind for 0AD (0 +/- 500, see 0AD homepage:

 “0 A.D.” is a time period that never actually existed: In the usual calendar, one goes from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. and skips zero. This reflects the historical fiction in the game: Who would have won if all the factions were pitted against each other when each of them was at its prime?

We intend to portray some of the major civilizations over the millennium of 500 B.C. to 500 A.D. (Hence the midpoint, zero.) That is an ambitious prospect, so in the first edition of 0 A.D. we focus on the last five centuries B.C. Perhaps in future expansion packs, more civilizations will be added, along with additional gameplay features.).

I thought development efforts would be mostly on 500BC-0. So if I read you well, 0-500 AD is actually totally skipped for now. I also saw a project about 1000AD, then there is a huge gap between both projects. I had in mind 0-500AD would have been already in development if people started working on factions after 1000AD. But it shouldn't be linked in any way with the main game development. I understand.

[niektb]

Well, the second part is reserved for sequel called 0 A.D. Empires Besieged (there isn't much documentation about that second part):

 

 

[AtlasMapper]

Yes, I see the post is 1.5 years old. Thanks anyway.

[AtlasMapper]

Returning back to the topic, the map is almost done! I am now testing it for balancing. Here are the final teasers, and some gameplay informations.

Aeolian Islands:

Spoiler

There are 3 differents islands on the map, each one showing some very different topography and resources availability.

1. Vulcano:

Spoiler

Specs: Huge amount of wood, average metal, very low stone.
The island is quite easy to manage in term of defense. There are a few docking spots, but the natural topography allow to set up some nice defenses. The resources are perfect to build wooden palisades and towers, as well as lots of low-stats units, war ships ans siege weapons.

2. Lipari:

Spoiler

Specs: Huge amount of stone, high wood, very low metal.
The island is the biggest, and as it is in the middle of the archipelago, it is the most obvious target to both others factions. Because of its topography, it is also more complex to build an effective defense. But the huge amount of stone on the island allows to build strong stone walls and towers everywhere. Because of the defect in metal, it might also be wise to focus on a high number of weak units (stage I-II), rather than fully upgraded, metal consuming units.

Salina:

Spoiler

Specs: Huge amount of metal, lots of stone, low wood.
This island is a tank. Because of natural mountains and relief, and the very few dock spots it is really easy to build an fortress on it. There is also a completely protected place to set up an emergency bunker place. The low amount of wood will limit the amount of units/ships to be created, and some wise choices should be made before creating them. But the huge amount of metal allows to upgrade to stage III and produce upgraded units with metal armors. Basically, low number of units, but with the best stats!

For any player, it should be very wise to build a market early in the gale, to try to balance and compensate the defect in particular resources.

So each island offers a very different gameplay and strategies should be adapted accordingly. Of course, it would be better played multi, especially if people build diplomatic alliances and commercial partnerships. But even played alone, the map should have a very good replayability, by switching between islands and factions on it.

I am now playing and balancing the map. I spent a lot of time to calculate the amount of resources, but I'll need lots of testing. Any comment or suggestions are welcome!

Edited March 19, 2016 by AtlasMapper

[AtlasMapper]

The map is really fun! But I'm still balancing the resources on my map. I have some questions to fix it more easily.

-Are they any formulas designed to define the "normal" and/or "minimum" amount of resources on map ? I see that in the random map scripts, resources amounts are defined, but it seems that different choices have been made depending on the script author. Is there any general purposes formulas that have been defined by developers ? It could help me to balance the map.

-About the blacksmith upgrades on extracting resources: does the upgrades improve the extraction rates only, as I think, or does they also expand the available amount on a resource site (eg. one small stone spot = 1000 S.U., if stone extraction +20% -> small stone spot = 1200 S.U. ?).

-Finally, since petra bot has a market on his territory, it should be able to convert resources as any other player (bartering ?). But can it really do it in games, or is this feature not implemented yet ? About the final game results, about resources exchanged, are they accurate, even for the bot ?

In advance, thanks for the information.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Storehouse upgrade only affect extraction rate, not total amount. The mines deplete faster with upgrades. Can't increase amount of mine have, because the mine does not belong to player, it is Gaia. Think about it this way: How would the gameplay work out if for Player 1 the mine give 5500 metal but for Player 2 the same mine give only 5000 metal? Can't have that discrepancy. I did have an idea about capturing metal mines by build a Storehouse on a "slot", kind of like Vespene Gas in Starcraft. Then the miners go into the mine shaft and extract the metal. I could imagine an enemy could destroy the Storehouse, killing your gatherers inside the mine shaft. Then the player could capture the mine by buildi their own Storehouse on the slot. But all of that is just idea for now.

AI bot can and does barter as far as I can tell.

About your real-world maps. It is important that you make sure that gameplay is not hamper by strict adherence to real-world purity. For instance, starting area need to be large and open so city can be build, etc., and have areas suitable for buildig new cities. That is, unless you want to force a certain type of cramped gameplay. This is just advice base on screenshots. I have not played the map yet!

Edited March 20, 2016 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[AtlasMapper]

3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Storehouse upgrade only affect extraction rate

I just wanted to be sure: I'm trying to balance the resources, but I always seem to underestimates the resources I add. Sometimes I even wonder where the bot takes its resources from... So I wanted to check if I was missing something. It takes a lot of time to balance/test it. But I think I am close now.

3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

It is important that you make sure that gameplay is not hamper by strict adherence to real-world purity.

I wrote my detailed gameplay comments to show how much gameplay and fun is important for me when I create maps. In this specific case, aeolian islands, the topography is also an important part of the fun. The specific resource lack in some islands is the other part. But I have always fun, balance and gameplay in mind when I create my maps. Surely, I am still learning how to build them efficiently, and I am always trying to improve them. To evaluate the playability of my maps, you can have a try playing one of the other one I created, Cyprus Island (now beta1.3). You'll see you will not be limited in the creation of buildings because any lack of room there. And I hope you also will see the strict adherence to real world can match a suitable gameplay: the funny thing is that petra bot will naturally build cities on Cyprus where they really exist in the world, because there is some room and access to resources there, and as in the real world they are nice natural spot to place buildings. That is why I draw real world map: I believe the natural topography naturally gives fun gameplay opportunities.

3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

starting area need to be large and open so city can be build, etc., and have areas suitable for buildig new cities.

Yes I understand. I assure you have lot of room to develop your cities in the aeolian islands. You can see on the Lipari screenshot for example that you have way too much room than necessary. It is a weakness actually. On Vulcano and Salina, there is enough room too, and the places are naturally protected by hills and mountains, this is actually an advantage toward Lipari.

4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

This is just advice base on screenshots.

No problem, any comment or advice is always welcome . You're invited to play on the Cyprus map. I am not really hurried to post the other maps for now, first because I am not satisfied enough on the gameplay, and secondly, because not much people seems to be interested by my maps. I mostly post my ongoing work to have a track of my work, and to help/motivate other people to create their own maps for the game. Also as I said, comments are always welcome. But I understand your doubts and comments. Don't worry, when I create a map, I want it to be fun to play, not only realistic. I find this one really fun so far!

[sanderd17]

4 hours ago, AtlasMapper said:

and secondly, because not much people seems to be interested by my maps.

I do like your maps, certainly the visuals. And I think, when they're balanced, they would be suited to be included in the main game. At least in A21, as we're already finalising A20.

But I would ask you to drop by on our IRC channel sometime. It would help discussing the map, and speed up putting the map in the main game.

[Palaxin]

AtlasMapper, your maps look great and personally I think one can never have enough real-world maps...
The thing is you can't really expect people to extensively test your maps, I also did this more or less for my mod which has the goal to replace the generic ore with iron, copper etc. (still gathering "metal", but different gathering speeds) to make resource collection more interesting. But in the end it's mainly up to you to do the testing... I see with Aeolian Islands you also try to make resources have a bigger impact on gameplay, so I appreciate this map very much

If you are still looking for a future project on real-world mapping I have two proposals (I'm not really experienced in mapping, so I'm sure these maps would look much better if made by you):

• Scenario map of the western Mediterranean: includes Iberians, Gauls, Romans and Carthaginians (probably Britons are out of range)
• Scenario map of the eastern Mediterranean: includes either Macedonians, Seleucids and Ptolemies or Athenians/Spartans and Persians (think of the Battle of Thermopylae...)

[AtlasMapper]

@sanderd17: Thanks. Well if it is really necessary, I'll try go on irc someday. You already know why I'm more on the forum, however.

@Palaxin: Thank you for your support and nice comments!

9 hours ago, Palaxin said:

in the end it's mainly up to you to do the testing..

Yes, but you know how important it is to have some other people advice with a kind of beta testing. I more or less have the same kind of playing style, so in my tests even if I try to do efforts by using creative attacks and exotic strategies, testing it all by myself is always less efficient than others advices. And apparently, you already know how frustrating it might be to upload things without much feedback . It is not a problem of popularity checking, but rather a problem of efficient improvement and validation of our hard work.

9 hours ago, Palaxin said:

you also try to make resources have a bigger impact on gameplay, so I appreciate this map very much

Haha nice, so I hope you'll give me advices on how to balance well the resources-based gameplay, I'll try to post very soon the first beta version of the Aeolian map.

9 hours ago, Palaxin said:

I have two proposals

Nice ! About your first proposal, western Mediterranean, I was thinking about creating the Balearic islands (http://osm.org/go/xRff5p--) for my next project (I love to map islands so much..). Probably Mallorca alone, because the island is quite big. It should be a nice place to setup battles between Iberians, Gauls, Romans and Carthaginians (however, I don't know if there are know historic battles between these factions, it is probably because of the location of the island). Or do you have any other specific idea of some areas where the battles could happen ? Around Spain ? There are already some map in the south of France.

About east Mediteranean, (and especially the battle of Thermopylae), there is already a nice map available in the game, the ancient Greek map. This is the right place to set up such battles I guess. So it might be a pity to redraw this map. Or maybe do you think about a "zoom" on a part of the Greece where the battle happened ? To complete my answer, I am also creating the Crete map (https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/20554-new-map-crete/), and as described, I have some scenario ideas (and even campaigns ideas) on this map. I don't know if it might fits what you have in mind ? But I am just at the beginning of the scripting stuff. I just started to script some attack on Malta Islands. It is working, but it is far from what I have in mind for a scenario. I don't know if you're already very familiar with scripting/using triggers ?

[Palaxin]

Yes, I agree with you that it is incredibly helpful to get feedback from other people. I guess many of us (including myself) simply prefer working on own ideas rather than testing for others since we are all volunteers and only have limited time available. But I can test your map when I have finished my Bachelor thesis in about two weeks

I'm afraid I can't give you the best advice regarding resource balancing, I still have to figure out similar questions for my mod. Probably the best advice can be given from experienced players (I'm not playing often), perhaps you can try to find someone in the multiplayer lobby? For technical questions IRC is the way to go, but you have to be lucky to get quick answers there.

Regarding the maps, I had something like that in mind (lol my Paint skills and geography knowledge are not that bad than I thought):

Spoiler

So the maps are not focused on some little battle area but rather include the whole settlement areas of the different civilizations. You could either let the players do what they want to rewrite "history" or use some triggers etc. to force specific actions. As far as I know triggers are not in their final stage and I haven't tried them out... If I will find time to go into mapping I probably will try to work on better random map terrain with simplex noise. I really love real-world maps but I fear I'm not patient enough to create them. But if you have more fun creating pure islands maps, do so! The map of ancient Greece is perhaps my favourite one, but I think it would still be nice to zoom out and include the Near East and the Nile delta, so Ptolemies, Seleucids and Persians can have their homes, too  

Edit: I also saw your other maps, they look all very promising! As I said time is scarce and I can't try everything...

Edited March 21, 2016 by Palaxin

[wackyserious]

This looks like a nice map to play once it is finished! I've always wanted to play in maps like this, maps with clear choke points and interesting landforms.

In the final stages of dev. you can also try to tweak the settings in the Atlas environment tab (Sun settings, terrain/object ambient color, water color, fog, etc.)

[AtlasMapper]

@Palaxin: Oh I see. Actually I had the opposite in mind, with zoomed in areas. Actually, I tend to do the opposite, for several reasons:

• When you create maps based on a huge area, there is a big scale shift between units, and battles are less realistic to me.
• Because of that scale problem, some area might look strange. Some shores are reduced to the minimum. Another point: eg. on the west map, the Corsica island would be so tiny that when texturing, you can only add beach texturing, but the area is much more complex, including mountains, etc. But almost no room for texturing on this complex island on big maps.
• The maps should also be as huge a possible to allow enough details, and very long to draw. Texturing, especially, would take me ages, because these map would include lots of different biomes. I draw Mediterranean Islands also because I am now quite familiar with this biome textures. But even with this (starting skill), it takes me lots of time to texture it. So switching between temperate, mediteranean, alpine, etc etc texures would be very long for somebody that texture like me.
• For technical reasons, it would be quite difficult for me, if even possible, to test huge maps with lots of factions. So I could create them, but couldn't really balance these maps.

But I understand why you would like to set up wars on such "total" maps. Even if it is not the kind of battles I am looking for, I understand your idea and I would like to help you. So here is my proposal: I can take in charge the 3D modeling for these maps, draw some basic texturing (then deliver the two very realistic, yet unfinished maps, it will look like the first screenshots on this post). I could also add some basic resources, to make a minimum playable map. You could then complete the maps by finishing texturing and adding resources, balancing. Then you should test the map with multiple AI. For now, I can't do that.

Just tell me if this proposal sounds ok for you, especially if you're familiar with texturing. I already have the area to draw with your images. I suppose that I should draw them in the biggest map size format available ? Or would you like a smaller map ?

Question for any moderator, how is that possible to split any conversation to another new post ? Just to keep the conversation stuck to the main topic ?

[AtlasMapper]

@wackyserious: Yes, it is exactly why I find this map fun to play It is also naval but not messy (because only 3 islands, and limited shores/docking options), very strategic because of the landform and the need of resources. You can also create several little cities on each island, then create markets and merchants traveling on your island. It is actually the first time I could make this important use of merchants, I don't really have the time or opportunity on other maps (it actually breaks the resource issue a bit too much to me, but then, targeting enemy's market and merchants is a very important strategy).

About the environment settings: thanks for this tip. I am aware of these options, and already set the water (color and waviness, notably). But about the fog, it might be beautiful, but I avoid using it: it doesn't look so good and useful on my islands, and it tends to slow the map (it is quite big). I am afraid it induces lags on other computers too. I would like playability should be a priority over the nice look of the map. But I'll follow your advice and I'll try to make it better in the end.

[feneur]

3 hours ago, AtlasMapper said:

 

Question for any moderator, how is that possible to split any conversation to another new post ? Just to keep the conversation stuck to the main topic ?

Just let us know which posts you want to have separated and we will take care of it.

[Palaxin]

I already switched to this thread... Perhaps we should have done that earlier

[AtlasMapper]

@feneur: well Palaxin already created a new topic, so I don't know if it will be easy for you to do it. Nevermind, I should have asked you before. Thanks anyway.

So returning back (again) to the topic, here are some final screenshots from battles on the map.

Spoiler

 

 

@wowgetoffyourcellphone: you'll see on these examples that you have lots of room to build big cities.

I think the map is done now, ready for a beta test with other players (if any interested). I have two more questions, however:

1. Using Atlas, I set up some custom limits in the starting resources, and max population. It is indicated on the .xml file of the map with informations such as

     "PopulationLimit": 250,
         "Resources": {
           "stone": 0
   		}

   But when I load the game, the limits are not applied. How does it works ?

2. I could post the map file now, but as Alpha20 seems to be imminent, I think it is best to test it with the A20 before. I can't see when A20 will be out, and what will be included in it. Is there any information about it ? What important changes or features could imply some maps modifications ?

Thanks.

Edited March 27, 2016 by AtlasMapper

[AtlasMapper]

Oh, and question 3: we can't change the level of water. So in order to place a lake in the top of one mountain, I had to add water textures... But I find it really horrible. Has anybody any hint or tips on how to set up nice lake or rivers on places higher than the water level ? Thanks.

And (again) question 4: I would like to resize my map. There are some unused water areas, I think I could lower potential lag issue if the map is smaller. I believed I could do so by modifying the .xml file, but I don't see any information about the size of the map. Is it possible to manually trunk or change the map size ?

Edited March 22, 2016 by AtlasMapper

[feneur]

Posts can be joined with an existing topic as well, so that is not an issue. 

You can resize the map with a tool in Atlas, if I remember correctly it only works from one of the corners though. So if you try it's probably best to make a backup copy of your map first.

[sanderd17]

1. Those settings are only useful for scenario maps (where the player can't chose the settings). They used to set the defaults for Skirmish maps, but since the game remembers its settings, that's not used anymore.
2. We're testing A20 now, so the release date depends on the issues we find. It should be a matter of days to test it, include the translations, package it and upload it.
3. There's only one real water level, if that's what you mean (so you can't make a lake that's higher than the sea). But you can change the height of that water level in the environment tab in Atlas.
4. Resizing in Atlas really messes up your map. It just clips the terrain to the smaller size, or it just extends the map with empty terrain. It should be possible to scale it with a script, though this will be a bit dangerous, as the steepness (and thus the passability) of the tiles is guaranteed to change in the process.

[AtlasMapper]

@feneur: Well it is different parts in many messages, so lots of modification, complicated for me to explain, and for little benefits. And as Palaxin already added links between both topics, it is ok.

@feneur, @sanderd17: About the map resizing, yes I know there is a tool in Atlas, but as it is said in Atlas, it is experimental.. And it resize indeed, messing everything apart. What I would like is to crop the map, just remove some tiles, ie. like a colomn of 100 tiles on a side of the whole map, without any other modification on the other tiles. So I was looking for some size informations in the .xml file, but then I suppose these informations are in the .pmp file instead ?

17 hours ago, sanderd17 said:

It should be possible to scale it with a script

Acting on the .pmp file then ? On what data/part the script would act ? Are you suggesting it would be too complicated for me, if I don't have the scripting knowledge ? Don't waste too much time explaining if the ratio benefit/complexity+dangerousness is too low. I just created a map that is too big, I want to improve its game speed for users.

17 hours ago, sanderd17 said:

There's only one real water level, if that's what you mean

Yes I know it (I couldn't do some islands if I wouldn't). My explanation was confusing. What I meant is: I want to create a lake in the top of a mountain (you can see it on the first previous screenshot), so I can't fill it with real water (water that fill the oceans in my map). So I just put some water textures to simulate a lake.. But I find it ugly. I was wondering if there are any other tricky ways to create lakes or rivers on places higher than the water level.

Thanks for the info about scenario/skirmish difference. It is clear now.

[sanderd17]

You would need to modify both: the pmp (which holds the terrain) and the xml (which holds the entity positions).

 

An example of such a script modifying a .pmp file can be found here: http://trac.wildfiregames.com/browser/ps/trunk/source/tools/mapcompatibility/a18_to_a19.py , though that one is more simple. It's used to convert from A18 compatible maps to A19 compatible ones. For that conversion, the height scale was changed (making the resolution of the height smaller, but allowing higher mountains), so I only needed to half (or double) the height.

In the comments, you can see how the pmp file is structured. Though to resize a map, you will need to alter different parts too (like the map and file size, and the texture definitions), which may or may not be trivial. Also note that a map should always be square.

Other info may be found here: http://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/PMP_File_Format Though as said, it won't be simple to achieve.