0 A.D. Is Wasting Its Potential !

[Thalatta]

4 hours ago, guerringuerrin said:

I can't understand how you can say that SC2 is slower. I doubt you even play it.

I can't understand how you can't just check them and see the speeds I mentioned are indeed those? What are you even talking about? And we have gone over this already once over 6 months ago, for which I have to say I must be a very bad lurker if I couldn't find more opportunities to cherry-pick instances to debate this issue, if that's what I actually want to do, according to you.

 

4 hours ago, guerringuerrin said:

I’m not even sure you know who you’re pointing fingers at.

The game is community driven, and I think it deviates from what the foundational documents describe. I don't know who is responsible in particular, and I don't care, since that's not even the point, no matter how much you want to hurl strawman accusations. I'm interested in the game the foundational documents describe, and if that has to be scratched out, fine, I would still think that it proposed a better game, and that there were well thought reasons for it. If all of that is so confronting to you, I'm really sorry, but that's what I think, and you just have to get over it, instead of reacting with highly inappropriate and nonsensical remarks demeaning the time I've invested, unless your intention is for people to leave to wherever their work is actually appreciated.

 

4 hours ago, guerringuerrin said:

to you, this is an example of why people leave this game

It is, quite literally, an example of someone leaving for a reason similar to what others have stated. I'm not claiming it's the main and only reason why people do so, that's yet another strawman. In any case, I think this is way more abstract than the speeds I've mentioned before, so I don't even see it as a big problem (while I understand his view), and in fact I did state in that thread that stuff like that "would be interesting to have as Achievements" (but that's it, a challenge, a curiosity, not something that could end up having so much weight in the outcome), but sure, let's just ignore most of what I actually write for the sake of your indignation.

 

1 hour ago, Grautvornix said:

let's stop argueing and make the game a bit better every day (in differnt ways, software, maps, historical accuracy, voices, music, artwork, mods, whatever).

Well, you know, it's actually quite hard to do so when being told that it's worth "so little" at the end. I'd like to see someone reading Morrison's book first, and then considering dozens on top of that, to have a grasp of how much "nerve" and "confidence" it would take to label summarising all that information as "so little", or if that wouldn't actually be a better descriptor of how much clue and shame one has to have to say such absurdity.

 

31 minutes ago, Perzival12 said:

Yeah, you have to be here at least a year to start assigning criticism /j

Wasn't the rule "less than me, more than you"?

[Grautvornix]

15 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

Well, you know, it's actually quite hard to do so when being told that it's worth "so little" at the end. I'd like to see someone reading Morrison's book first, and then considering dozens on top of that, to have a grasp of how much "nerve" and "confidence" it would take to label summarising all that information as "so little", or if that wouldn't actually be a better descriptor of how much clue and shame one has to have to say such absurdity.

Exactly that's what I meant when writing that we all try contributing different things - expertise, historical accuracy, programming, art, music, voices, reviews, whatever. Please don't get discouraged. Your contributions are valued!

And BTW this is true for everyones contributions.

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

Things don't change overnight; you need patience and to make "things work".

 

[guerringuerrin]

3 hours ago, Thalatta said:

I can't understand how you can't just check them and see the speeds I mentioned are indeed those? What are you even talking about?

I know the timings. Do you really think it all comes down to that? Have you ever watched a good, average-level SC2 or AoE II player and then watched one of the very best 0 A.D. players? The difference in APM is OVERWHELMING. And the game is moving even further in that direction with patches like Box Targeting.

 

 

3 hours ago, Thalatta said:

I'm really sorry, but that's what I think, and you just have to get over it, instead of reacting with highly inappropriate and nonsensical remarks demeaning the time I've invested, unless your intention is for people to leave to wherever their work is actually appreciated.

You can keep telling everyone how things should be done, you can keep spamming every post that comes along with your detailed observations. but if you attack people you don't even know, you'll have to deal with the backlash.
So I will quote your own words again, which were utterly offensive and showed absolutely no consideration for a whole bunch of people you don't even know. 

On 21/10/2026 at 9:40 AM, Thalatta said:

it's painful to see that all the amazing work the devs have done (and I emphasise that before what's coming) is being used to cater an unrepresentative, yet habitué, group that wants a rushed game that's 3 times faster than the already competitive StarCraft II (production and research times as reference), and even use mods to remove all the nice graphics to have an advantage at it. How can those who appreciate history, graphics and good design in general not find that just ridiculous and sad? Last week in the challenge thread I read yet another example, where someone posted they don't play anymore because of the 100 pop in 7 mins, which is completely understandable (no matter those who react with a little confused face) since the game has been described here as "the Fastest Click Wins", and, again, a crushing majority of those who play have absolute zero interest in any of this stuff 

 

[ThePoshBarbarian]

[Thalatta]

On 23/10/2026 at 3:14 AM, guerringuerrin said:

I know the timings. Do you really think it all comes down to that? Have you ever watched a good, average-level SC2 or AoE II player and then watched one of the very best 0 A.D. players? The difference in APM is OVERWHELMING. And the game is moving even further in that direction with patches like Box Targeting.

I'm only talking about timings, what someone is first confronted with, the rest is a different matter.

 

On 23/10/2026 at 3:14 AM, guerringuerrin said:

So I will quote your own words again, which were utterly offensive and showed absolutely no consideration for a whole bunch of people you don't even know.

Really? Is that what you are going to quote as "utterly offensive"? People wanting timings 3x faster than SC2 and someone's experience? And I would have thought the mild trolling (not gigantic, though) is what bothered you. Disappointed.

 

On 23/10/2026 at 3:14 AM, guerringuerrin said:

You can keep telling everyone how things should be done, you can keep spamming every post that comes along with your detailed observations.

You can keep being dismissive of the reasons people give for leaving, threads here, opinions outside, foundational documents, variables from other games, statistics regarding their players (labelling all that "telling everyone how things should be done", no, I agree with that, you don't, just get over it), if I play the game at all (no, I got what I tell newbies from reading the non-existent manual), non-gameplay detailed posts (labelling them as "spam"), and those that apparently have "demonstrated so little" no matter how much time they actually invest (because, have you already gotten any sensible grasp of the time needed to summarise the information I have, or are you going to keep coming with laughable criteria like sign-up date?) in trying to make content more palatable for the astounding majority who doesn't give a single d*mn about competitive play. Nice mentality.

Edited Saturday at 02:20 by Thalatta

[guerringuerrin]

@Thalatta, your original message that I replied to is pretty clear. I'll quote it again: "it's painful to see that all the amazing work the devs have done is being used to cater an unrepresentative, yet habitué, group that wants a rushed game that's 3 times faster than the already competitive StarCraft II"

As if the devs had nothing to do with timings and other gameplay decisions. Or perhaps those aren't "the devs" or maybe not all, or they're just "contributors". Better yet, to adapt it to your terminology, which is extremely precise: "an unrepresentative group". Yes, of course it bothers me. You have absolutely no idea who these people are. You have no idea what they discuss. And you're in no position to dictate what kind of gameplay experience the majority prefers. 

As for dismissing the opinions of people who leave the game, you couldn't be more wrong. But I don't think pacing (which isn't just about training times) is the decisive factor. If anything, it's player onboarding: the lack of campaigns, improvements to tutorials, improvements to the Petra Bot, friendly GUI. But basically, the single-player experience.

 

18 hours ago, Thalatta said:

You can keep being dismissive of the reasons people give for leaving, threads here, opinions outside, foundational documents, variables from other games, statistics regarding their players (labelling all that "telling everyone how things should be done", no, I agree with that, you don't, just get over it), 

No, I'm telling to you this. You barely arrived before you started pointing fingers.

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

Most of us are volunteers, and the truth is, there's very little gameplay discussion in recent years, no real direction. What I'm seeing is a division among those who love competitive online gaming and a historically more conservative and slower game.

That it be more strategic and in decision-making.

[Thalatta]

19 hours ago, guerringuerrin said:

"it's painful to see that all the amazing work the devs have done is being used to cater an unrepresentative, yet habitué, group that wants a rushed game that's 3 times faster than the already competitive StarCraft II"

It's very nice of me to have included the underlined part, because the rest, and more, you can find in the first page of:

What strikes me is your pretension that I can't possibly understand what's written there, or that I haven't seen similar things in other threads, or felt it in the game itself (that must explain your comical denial that I even play it!). When you posted there, why didn't you state how utterly offensive finger pointing is, or disrespectfully denigrate other's general contributions? What I said was not directed at anyone in particular, but refers to the issue in particular, while you jumped to belittle someone in particular, with ad hominems unrelated to the issue in particular. I was going to say it's utterly irrelevant if I know or not who they truly are, but it's actually in my favour since, again, my criticism is not directed at specifically anyone, but known philosophies (as in that thread), and you ought to learn all these differences already.

 

19 hours ago, guerringuerrin said:

But I don't think pacing (which isn't just about training times) is the decisive factor.

Fine, I just give pacing issues more weight than you, and while it's not just about training times, they are one of the first things one explicitly encounters. Batch training gets around pacing issues (lowering APM), but it's not optimal to ask all newbies to handle that from the start instead of queuing units one by one (more intuitive for many, for some time at least). And I think the different difficulty levels should behave along those lines also. All "basically, the single-player experience". Regarding competitiveness, I wouldn't even care if batching was faster than it is now for large batches to keep things almost unchanged for average batches, of course, all balance-pending, but you can't just insult, dismiss and deny the possible existence of an issue for which there are even threads already. And think way more carefully about your replies, because I'm going to answer next with a very telling paragraph made of quotes from that thread.

 

19 hours ago, guerringuerrin said:

If anything, it's player onboarding: the lack of campaigns, improvements to tutorials, improvements to the Petra Bot, friendly GUI. But basically, the single-player experience.

Everyone agrees with that, too bad you qualify the help (most through MP) @lilypoppy gets for his campaign, among other things you still lack any sensible grasp on, as demonstrating "so little". If anything, it's him who's in a position to evaluate that, not you, by any means. That's just how you get whoever is actually trying to collaborate on factors you mention are lacking to lose any interest in the project and leave.

 

8 hours ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

a division among those who love competitive online gaming and a historically more conservative and slower game.

I think sometimes the problem is the denial of how each aspect is seen by each group. That's why we all agree in improving the SP experience, but don't seem to agree on what that exactly means. I think the thread mentioned makes it clear how each side sees "training times" for example (as if that were not expected already, or a "data analysis study" was needed and not just a shut down attempt), and why I consider it another factor in the SP experience (which is extremely important because it relates to the vast majority of players, who play offline). Still, I've stated now and in the past that I don't support the removal of the competitive aspect by any means, even proposing a Normal and Competitive Presets (for parameters that cannot be harmonised), and Achievements to motivate players to gradually switch from one to the other to basically get more offline players and hoping to slowly convert some into online ones.

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

39 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

I've stated now and in the past that I don't support the removal of the competitive aspect by any means, even proposing a Normal and Competitive Presets (for parameters that cannot be harmonised), and Achievements to motivate players to gradually switch from one to the other to basically get more offline players and hoping to slowly convert some into online ones.

The competitive scene has held this game back in terms of gameplay. It's been like this for years. Almost a decade.

[guerringuerrin]

@Thalatta, the only thing I'm questioning is that you single out a group of players as a minority that has co-opted the gameplay side of things and refuses to open up to "improvements". You don't name anyone in particular, but it's obvious which side you're pointing the finger at. And you started doing that very early on, right from the beginning of your time on the forum. We've discussed this several times already. You're not in a position to decide who represents the best vision for the game. As for my criticism of your contributions, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings so much that you'd feel the need to start listing them and even tagging people. It was a more general remark, evidently poorly worded, intended to question your lack of humility. I'm sorry. 

But it's clear you're not the only one who thinks it's appropriate to single out particular groups of players as holding back the game's progress. Perhaps I'm the one who's wrong. Time will tell.

[Thalatta]

@guerringuerrin of course it's hurtful to have the (many times unnecessarily extensively researched) whole body of one's input completely denigrated just for saying what many others have already said (and with a couple to "Like" such attack). But what is even more hurtful is when that comes from someone that seemed amongst the most reasonable people in the forum. My tag was just a reference to the campaign author, I could have omitted the @.

What seems to me like a lack of humility is the apparent blindness towards non-competitive players, it's unfortunate that you put that on me when I'm only reacting with annoyance to the attitude "shorten timings and git gud", one doesn't even need any time in a forum, but with RTS, to find that mentality alarming (as happened in that thread). And there is a spectrum of it, many think the game is already leaning towards that extreme, and that a more centred presentation would benefit the growth of the game, and the less it affects the lobby players the better, but if some get jumpy even with techs that are there just for SP (as I think I mentioned in the only discussion I remember we had), then it's hard to say they even care about their experience (same with a couple of nice but held back recent proposals, not made by me). I don't even blame the whole lobby, or would go as far as to say people are pointing fingers, because you would leave no room to even address the issue.

[lilypoppy]

I never wanted to create any conflict. I want collaboration: I want the gameplay people to help me, and I want the experts to help me too. But I can't handle the conflict. 

I don't have the energy for it. 

I want this game to be the AAA of open source. But I want us to do it together. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, lilypoppy said:

I never wanted to create any conflict. I want collaboration: I want the gameplay people to help me, and I want the experts to help me too. But I can't handle the conflict. 

I don't have the energy for it. 

I want this game to be the AAA of open source. But I want us to do it together. 

It's no big deal, honestly. I wouldn't take it too much to heart. I was once very passionate about making 0 A.D. into XYZ, but over the years realized no one shares my vision. lol Now, I only develop 0 A.D. out of spite. j/k. But anyway, the engine itself is slowly evolving to allow for more and more interesting things, even if the base game doesn't showcase them. Mods can and will take up the mantle as long as the capability is there. 

[Nicolaus_von_Kues]

25 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

It's no big deal, honestly. I wouldn't take it too much to heart. I was once very passionate about making 0 A.D. into XYZ, but over the years realized no one shares my vision. lol Now, I only develop 0 A.D. out of spite. j/k. But anyway, the engine itself is slowly evolving to allow for more and more interesting things, even if the base game doesn't showcase them. Mods can and will take up the mantle as long as the capability is there. 

Your concepts are better and riskier than the base game. By riskier, I mean bolder.

[Bravado2020]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

It's no big deal, honestly. I wouldn't take it too much to heart. I was once very passionate about making 0 A.D. into XYZ, but over the years realized no one shares my vision. lol Now, I only develop 0 A.D. out of spite. j/k. But anyway, the engine itself is slowly evolving to allow for more and more interesting things, even if the base game doesn't showcase them. Mods can and will take up the mantle as long as the capability is there. 

I feel that deeply, I've also had passions wither and die because the enthusiasm for them just wasn't being realised or cared for and in the end i was just doing it for myself, It's a tough one but never give up! even if it is on a small scale there are still people who appreciate what you do.

[Bravado2020]

59 minutes ago, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

Your concepts are better and riskier than the base game. By riskier, I mean bolder.

"Fortune favours the Bold"

[guerringuerrin]

12 hours ago, lilypoppy said:

I never wanted to create any conflict. I want collaboration: I want the gameplay people to help me, and I want the experts to help me too. But I can't handle the conflict. 

I don't have the energy for it. 

I want this game to be the AAA of open source. But I want us to do it together. 

You didn't do anything wrong. Everyone shares your wishes, and your proposals are welcome. Just to be clear, nothing I said was directed at you.

Sorry for bringing conflict into your thread. I get annoyed by the attitude of certain people who point fingers and look for someone to blame. That attitude contributes absolutely nothing. But I should have kept quiet.

[Atrik]

3 minutes ago, guerringuerrin said:

But I should have kept quiet.

I bet the regret is mostly that you realized you cannot make the last point, and probably never will on any subjects, even something you know better about. 

[Thalatta]

On 25/10/2026 at 4:07 PM, Nicolaus_von_Kues said:

The competitive scene has held this game back in terms of gameplay. It's been like this for years. Almost a decade.

Maybe it should be referred to as "the issue that cannot be named", exemplified in the first page of that thread by others who didn't get insulted, luckily read by guerringuerrin, but apparently not concise enough for others

 

14 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

over the years realized no one shares my vision

I think something resembling your vision has to be shared by many, because I've read reviews of DE, comparing it to vanilla. I almost mention one of them but I didn't want to keep being insulted

[real_tabasco_sauce]

On 21/10/2026 at 6:40 AM, Thalatta said:

"Fastest click wins". I'm really sorry, but your guard has been downed, breached and obliterated long ago then.

I think people tend to overinterpret stuff like this. Of course one's APM is and should be an advantage, its just that it shouldn't be the only thing that matters (which isn't even the case right now). IMO the idea is just to ensure that the strategic elements are developed enough so that APM isn't the sole decider.

I've been trying to help with the strategic elements, but I've been very short on time recently.

As for SP development, it's really a monumental task, and certainly there can be SP-only units, technologies, and heroes.

[lilypoppy]

Il y a 14 heures, wowgetoffyourcellphone a dit :

Franchement, c'est pas la fin du monde. Ne t'en fais pas trop. J'étais à fond pour transformer 0 AD en XYZ, mais avec le temps, j'ai compris que personne ne partageait ma vision. Haha ! Maintenant, je développe 0 AD juste par dépit. Je plaisante. Bref, le moteur évolue petit à petit et permet des choses de plus en plus intéressantes, même si le jeu de base ne les met pas en avant. Les mods peuvent et vont prendre le relais tant que c'est possible. 

 I’m experimenting with all sorts of things; for instance,

I tested using straws to create sounds, and it works quite well. I also put together a “Petra-bot” template so others can improve upon it

I’ve been thinking about organizing some kind of competition between Petra-bots, which would let me sit back with my coffee while the testing happens.

 

I absolutely love *Post-Atlas* and *Mercator*, and HC is beautful

 

[guerringuerrin]

33 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

Maybe it should be referred to as "the issue that cannot be named", exemplified in the first page of that thread by others who didn't get insulted, luckily read by guerringuerrin, but apparently not concise enough for others

 

I think something resembling your vision has to be shared by many, because I've read reviews of DE, comparing it to vanilla. I almost mention one of them but I didn't want to keep being insulted

Anyone can have an opinion about what would be better for the game or what it’s lacking, and they won’t be insulted by me for it.

The only person I’ve "insulted" is you, @Thalatta (and I didn’t even insult you). Because you give yourself the liberty of directly singling out a group of people (that you don’t even know) and holding them responsible for certain limitations of the game. At least have the courage not to play the victim and twist my words.

On 21/10/2026 at 9:40 AM, Thalatta said:

it's painful to see that all the amazing work the devs have done used to cater an unrepresentative, yet habitué, group that wants a rushed game that's 3 times faster than the already competitive StarCraft II (production and research times as reference), 

 

[Thalatta]

8 minutes ago, guerringuerrin said:

The only person I’ve "insulted" is you, @Thalatta (and I didn’t even insult you). Because you give yourself the liberty of directly singling out a group of people

Gosh, seriously? Have you read or not the first page of that thread? I don't want to make a whole paragraph with quotes from that thread, so don't make me do it! I'm not even referring to the "lobby", or to the "competitive community" (as referred there), but those who want "a rushed game that's 3 times faster than the already competitive StarCraft II (production and research times as reference)". I'm quite clear on the actual issue, and not singling out a group of people that might not have all that same idea. And even if I were doing that (which I'm not), why do you treat me as if that's not happening in that thread? And if I did it by "poor wording" at any other possible time (which I don't remember right now, but just in case), it's beyond clear what I am referring to. So, how can you possibly still think any of that?? Why don't you just read way more carefully?