Balancing civs and units

[DoO_Wolf_NL]

I played a game as carthaginians vs a friend who played celts (and romans in the second game) and both games i made 20 hannibal barca's (within 15-20 minutes or so) and the score was:

7 units lost and 300 units killed.

This should'nt be the case, especially because he made only anti-elephant units like skirmishers. The skirmishers do 25 damage vs the hannibal unit, but the skirm is killed in 2 attacks from the hannibal unit. Because the hannibal unit is faster + the skirmischer has a huge minimumrange, it is quite impossible to use any kind of micro against more then 1 hannibal unit.

1.My suggestion is: let players have only 1 hannibal at a time, or maybe even only 1 hannibal during the entire game.

2. If this is not supported, another idea might be: give the hannibal unit 15 population instead of 3 and give the unit a training time of 5 minutes or something like that. That way, the units can still be massed, but you will never have more then 5-10 at the same time in the game (unless your opponent sleeps).

Also dump your suggestions about other units in the game! Let the balancing begin.

[leper]

It is planned that only one (maybe of a type) hero unit can be built at a time.

[Afronaut]

I played a game as carthaginians vs a friend who played celts (and romans in the second game) and both games i made 20 hannibal barca's (within 15-20 minutes or so) and the score was:

7 units lost and 300 units killed.

This should'nt be the case, especially because he made only anti-elephant units like skirmishers. The skirmishers do 25 damage vs the hannibal unit, but the skirm is killed in 2 attacks from the hannibal unit. Because the hannibal unit is faster + the skirmischer has a huge minimumrange, it is quite impossible to use any kind of micro against more then 1 hannibal unit.

1.My suggestion is: let players have only 1 hannibal at a time, or maybe even only 1 hannibal during the entire game.

2. If this is not supported, another idea might be: give the hannibal unit 15 population instead of 3 and give the unit a training time of 5 minutes or something like that. That way, the units can still be massed, but you will never have more then 5-10 at the same time in the game (unless your opponent sleeps).

Also dump your suggestions about other units in the game! Let the balancing begin.

The Barcas are famous Carthaginian leaders(Hannibal Barca is the most famous)

I'm sure they already planned for them to be limited to 1

So you pretty much screwed your friend by playing unfairly spamming hero units haha

Edited March 25, 2012 by Afronaut

[Mythos_Ruler]

Yeah, until we get unit training limits put into place, it would be good to adhere to a set of "house rules" which includes training only 1 of each hero.

[hhyloc]

lol, if we had that many Hannibal in real life, the Romans would have been screwed.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Not if they had a ton of Scipios

[Mythos_Ruler]

iirc, Hannibal only had 1 elephant (Sara or Sura) after he crossed the Alps. The others died of exposure.

Though, Carthage used elephants somewhat effectively in Spain, and then disastrously at Zama.

[oshron]

iirc, Hannibal only had 1 elephant (Sara or Sura) after he crossed the Alps. The others died of exposure.

Though, Carthage used elephants somewhat effectively in Spain, and then disastrously at Zama.

yeah, only hannibal's own elephant survived the crossing of the alps

[iap]

I'm actually more fund of making them more expensive, not only by resources but by pop and build time idea, instead of artificially capping them.

[Mythos_Ruler]

I'm actually more fund of making them more expensive, not only by resources but by pop and build time idea, instead of artificially capping them.

I don't see it as an "artificial" cap. They represent specific people in history, so it doesn't make sense that you could train more than one of each. A standard hoplite doesn't represent a specific person, so you can train as many of them as you want to.

[iap]

Oh, I understand. So maybe they will be more like in Warcraft 3: bigger, stronger, has an aura and specials? Oh, and has a story and a special building just for them?

[bioinfornatics]

Me i do not see how celts civ could win on island map !

yes their boat can load many people, it is very efficient against infantry and cavalry. But against other boat it is unless then on a water map celt could not cross a sea

[bioinfornatics]

10 celts boat for load it it is 400 units and max it is 300

for vuild 400 celts unit and 10 celts boat u need a good economic. Since you have not these 10 full boat you can't go to water then you can't take fish -> bad economic , fail

Edited March 28, 2012 by bioinfornatics

[FeXoR]

 You don't need the ships fully manned. The firepower doesn't depend on men in it (yet?) as far as I know. That means they only take 10 population. 

Edited March 28, 2012 by FeXoR

[Pureon]

 You don't need the ships fully manned. The firepower doesn't depend on men in it (yet?) as far as I know. That means they only take 10 population. 

Ships work just like defensive buildings - the more units garrisoned inside the greater the firepower.

[feneur]

Also, remember that the game isn't balanced yet, so the exact stats etc may of course change Generally speaking though, the Celtic boats are intended to be among the strongest of all, so while they might not be as offensive on the seas as other civs it will take a lot for an enemy who wants to defeat the Celts at sea.

[forCarthage]

iirc, Hannibal only had 1 elephant (Sara or Sura) after he crossed the Alps. The others died of exposure.

Though, Carthage used elephants somewhat effectively in Spain, and then disastrously at Zama.

If I may intergect...

At the Battle of the Trebia Hannibal had 37 Elephants present (this was obviously after his crossing of the alps). This comes from Polybius' "The Histories" Book Three. Basically all of his elephants made it over the alps. I know its just a nitpick, no disrespect meant.

Also happy 1st post to me!

[Mythos_Ruler]

If I may intergect...

At the Battle of the Trebia Hannibal had 37 Elephants present (this was obviously after his crossing of the alps). This comes from Polybius' "The Histories" Book Three. Basically all of his elephants made it over the alps. I know its just a nitpick, no disrespect meant.

Also happy 1st post to me!

You're right. The elephants took part in the Battle of Trebia but most died soon thereafter due to exposure.

[Sighvatr]

I played a 2 versus 2 game tonight. Apparently outnumbering the opponent with ranged units is the way to go. Archers, Slingers, Javelineers, and especially horse skirmishers is very easy to constantly produce and attack the enemy. If you build enough barracks, you can literally fodder out the suckers- along with coordination -until your opponent can not afford the resources to 'counter' you.

In the game, I made the mistake of not recognizing my opponents strategy into producing ranged cannon fodder, so I lost half of the map to my opponents. My unit pumping opponent was Iberian, and his newb teammate whom didnt participate in most of the battles was Persian. My friend and I decided to start the game with Athenian Slingers to counter the evil army of evil javelineer fodder, but we ended up not having enough stone to keep up our slingers that could risk not producing anything else vital and important. So I thought we should produce professional troops such as the City Guards and Scythian Archers to counter.

I've managed to produce 10 Siege Catapults, 100 Athenian City Guards, and 90 Scythian Archers (along with my ally and his number of slingers and Scythian Archers) to fight and push back the hordes and hopefully regain middle ground. After intense lag and killing 3 armies of the suckers, a fourth and fifth army came to finish me off. Then pushed us back to our last defense and kept up a Siege that lasted for 2 hours. (Thank you developers for only giving Persians and Iberians those Battering Rams)

Will post pictures in a moment.

Our supposed Invasion Force sets out and clashes the enemy head on!

Our adversary defeats us and pushes us back to defend green town from those slobbering Iberians.

The second wave arrives fresh with troops straight out of the barracks a minute after the first wave.

The fifth wave. Green town is hopeless from those limitless barabarians and citizens flee! Athens is about to fall!

Edited June 1, 2012 by Sighvatr

[FeXoR]

lol, if we had that many Hannibal in real life, the Romans would have been screwed.

I don't think so. He was a great leader but leaders tend to fight each other

[Alpha of the Eagles]

Sighvatr: I would have used Ekdromoi or melee cavalry to chase his archers around. Micromanage-intensitive, but usually efficient. Also, bring healers. Lots of lots of healers.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

I still would agree that ranged units are in general to powerful with their attacks. They should have more range, but should be far more ineffective in combat than they presently are with the amount of damage they give. (Especially to infantry) Melee soldiers should be the decisive factor in any engagement.

[Sighvatr]

Priests cost about 100-200 Metal I think? Priests are great, but my opponent likes to use coordination with his troops so he can kill the right people with the right troops. It would be a drain on my resources to keep up priests if that is the case. There were times I produced a lot of cavalry, but they get slaugthered after one or two waves. There was no water so I couldn't make Marines. Marines probably would've been the troop to really take out my opponent. But he does bring out Lancers too sometimes.

My suggestion is that when melee troops manage to reach ranged troops in combat, ranged troops should fall back to a melee alternative. Therefore eliminating the annoying process of watching my troops travel across the entire map chasing one javelineer.

[FeXoR]

My suggestion is that when melee troops manage to reach ranged troops in combat, ranged troops should fall back to a melee alternative. Therefore eliminating the annoying process of watching my troops travel across the entire map chasing one javelineer.

Thats a problem caused by 2 decisions IMO:

- Ranged units are faster than melee units (when both unmounted)

- Units stick to a target until it's dead (or another target is given manually ofc.)

IMO attacking units (especially melee units) should check for a better (closer/attacking/healing) target whenever their current target moves (ATM melee units can't deal damage to a moving target anyways even if they are faster since they can't attack while moving and when the target is reached and they stop to attack attack the damage would be dealt somewhere in the process but at this point the target is out of range again).

I know that balancing comes in beta but I'm not quite sure how to balance ranged mounted units if they are fastest (even if as fast as melee mounted). They can't be hit but by other ranged units if the unit AI avoids enemy melee units well and if facing a ranged food army (which might be more cost efficient) just run somewhere else to attack. In case of Iberians they can even destroy buildings and siege engines well.

Melee units should run faster than ranged units (when running/charging is implemented) which would make some sense because they may be stronger and so might charge faster even with the heavier equipment while still walking slower than ranged units. That would make stamina a real issue for melee units. Still ranged mounted units would be a problem...

Edited June 8, 2012 by FeXoR

[Sighvatr]

In a game very similar to 0 A.D., Age of Empires 3's Ranged Units all have a melee alternative. This way the fight stays in one location. It is also a little too broad to exclaim that melee troops are more stronger than ranged, because it does take years of training and strength to pull a big bow and shoot accurately. Bows also aren't particularly something you can pick up and expect to hit a bulls-eye. Not to mention the fact that archers tend to be dressed differently for different armies and different purposes.