Wonders, Special Buildings, and Special Projects

[SMST]

The Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus was actually the most lavishly adorned temple of its time. Sounds pretty special to me. There really is nothing else in Republican Roman times that compares, except the aqueducts, but those would make for strange "Wonders."

And why not the Circus Maximus? It would have an unique architechtural shape and would be something specifically Roman.

symbolically, the Temple of Zeus would probably be better 1) becase Zeus was the king of the Greek gods, and 2) the Spartans, being all macho whatever, would probably identify more with male king Zeus rather than female virgin Artemis, who used a coward's ranged weapons in mythology no less. though i also agree that perhaps the Thebans should be included as a civ as well, or alternatively the Syracusans (pretty much just because the strongest suggestion i've seen for a learning campaign has been the foundation of Syracuse), though admittedly i see no problem in limiting the Hellenic civilizations to the Athenians, Spartans, and Macedonians, the most famous of them all. perhaps a hypothetical Part 3 could include the Thebans and Syracusans as amendments to the BC civs

Thebans are to be implemented, I think. There is a civ profile, civ emblem, champion units, you get the picture. Syracuse (or a collective Megale Hellas faction) would be cool. (well, why would I say that?^^)

Don't forget that Spartan women were taught to run and fight like men. If anyone wasn't "macho" in the Greek world, it were the Spartans. However, the Statue/Temple of Zeus would be more recognisable.

here's a rough, fictional example. suppose you are playing as the Spartans against the Persians. the Persians have the ready-made wonder, the Hanging Gardens, which they have right from the beginning. a chief objective of the scenario would be to capture the Hanging Gardens because of a bonus they give towards food production and costs. for the purposes of the game, this would trigger something else that just cripples the Persian economy and makes them easier to defeat from that point, but it also lets you, the player, reap the benefits of the Gardens' food bonuses. does this make sense?

Yes, talking of benefits. What would you all think should the unique properties of the Wonders be?

Here are my ideas for some of them:

Parthenon: It was a feat of great architectural and artistic technique and stands as a great example for Greek aestetics until today. If an Athenian player builds the Parthenon, all buildings have their HP increased and their construction time decreased.

Stonehenge: No one really knows its purpose, but for our timeframe, we can go with the theory that druids used it for their rituals. If a Briton player builds the Stonehenge, all Druids heal troops at an increased rate and range.

Mausoleum of Atreban: From what I've read (I don't know much about that building) it was built by foreign architects in Carthaginian employ for a Libyan prince. It was thus a remarkable multi-national effort that brought Carthage closer together with its neighboring nations. If a Carthaginian player buils the Mausoleum, all Embassies can be constructed cheaper and mercenaries can be trained faster.

Great Library: It was a center of learning and scholarship for the whole Hellenic world. If a Macedonian player builds the Great Library, all technologies are researched faster and the LOS of all buildings is increased.

Hanging Gardens: They are an amazing feat of water engineering which may have provided irrigation to the dry landscape that is Mesopotamia. If a Persian player builds the Hanging Gardens, all food costs are reduced by a certain amount and all civic centres support additional population.

Temple of Zeus: Zeus was a patron of the Greek soldiers in wartime. If the Temple/Statue of Zeus is built by a Spartan player, all subsequently trained citizen soldiers recieve additional experience upon training and all citizen soldiers gain experience faster.

Circus Maximus: The Roman sporting events pleased the masses and also famously gave individuals more power in the state as they would host games in the Circus to gain the people's favor in upcoming elections. If built by a Roman player, the Circus Maximus increases the aura of heroes and the maximal "loyalty" attribute of all buildings. (they cannot be captured that easily)

well wouldn't it honestly be better if it was an obscure wonder? there's plenty of wonders in AOK, for instance, that alot of people who played the game wouldn't recognize immediately. how many people knew about the Porcelain Tower before that game, for instance? and if its an obscure building that looks pretty unique, so much the better. i again recommend the Forum as the Republican Roman wonder because it hasnt been done before and is relatively unique, even though its not a single building. we'd basically just need to figure out what the most iconic building the Forum was and build around that (it could be a big fountain, for instance, with some columns surrounding it). as for the buildings' histories, if history is included in-game (like in AOM), then that would simplify everything

I knew pretty much all of the wonders of AoK. (except that Celtic one, which is apparently some castle ) Not sure about the Porcelain Tower, was'nt he the Korean wonder? In any case, that particular building is relatively well known and it is Chinese, not Korean. Thus, it was chosen because it was recognisable, not because it was accurate.

My point is that the proposed obscure buildings would not look unique. The Temple of Artemis in Sparta would not be different from oh so many other Greek temples, and the Cadmea is a pile of ruins - I searched for reconstructions or something that would give an idea for a Theban wonder, but I found nothing. Thus, I would prefer less accurate, but more recognisable buildings to the opposite, if such a choice is to be made. For example, I support the highly obscure Mausoleum of Atreban, because it is unique and recognisable.

your idea with the "water-only wonders" definitely sounds cool; it would certainly open up alot of possibilities for making the civs more unique. in this situation, though i'd recommend only giving water wonders to civs that specifically have those options (like the Lighthouse and the Colossus) whereas other civs would have the same wonders as before. though, while i admit that water wonders would be cool, it may be too complicated to include something like that so, in the meantime, i think we should focus discussion for land-based wonders (like the Library and the Temple of Zeus)

Yeah, the idea was to enable this only to civs where that would make sense. Carthage, Athens and Macedon respectively.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Parthenon: It was a feat of great architectural and artistic technique and stands as a great example for Greek aestetics until today. If an Athenian player builds the Parthenon, all buildings have their HP increased and their construction time decreased.

Perhaps instead of increasing building hitpoints, it could reduce the costs and also, it could possibly give a combat bonus to units around it.

Temple of Zeus: Zeus was a patron of the Greek soldiers in wartime. If the Temple/Statue of Zeus is built by a Spartan player, all subsequently trained citizen soldiers recieve additional experience upon training and all citizen soldiers gain experience faster.

That seems very purposeless since Spartan players' citizen soldiers are trained at the elite rank during the city phase. Zeus was also more of a god that related to honesty, friendliness, to foreigners, oaths, the sky. It would be far more appropriate then, to have the Temple of Zeus give a trading bonus. This of course, is hardly Spartan, so it brings me back to my old suggestion that no one very much likes; have the wonder be their Temple of Artemis. It may just be another temple, but it was Spartan, and the fact that it seems very unoriginal is reasonable, since the Spartans, although pious, were not that obsessed with building impractically large statues. The fact that it would not look very unique would make it look Spartan.

[SMST]

Perhaps instead of increasing building hitpoints, it could reduce the costs and also, it could possibly give a combat bonus to units around it.

Well, I thought architectural technique would make a building better constructed (-> more hitpoints) and building it would be better organized (-> less building time). It wouldn't exactly make the materials or the workers needed to build it cheaper. What do you base the combat bonus on?

That seems very purposeless since Spartan players' citizen soldiers are trained at the elite rank during the city phase. Zeus was also more of a god that related to honesty, friendliness, to foreigners, oaths, the sky. It would be far more appropriate then, to have the Temple of Zeus give a trading bonus. This of course, is hardly Spartan, so it brings me back to my old suggestion that no one very much likes; have the wonder be their Temple of Artemis. It may just be another temple, but it was Spartan, and the fact that it seems very unoriginal is reasonable, since the Spartans, although pious, were not that obsessed with building impractically large statues. The fact that it would not look very unique would make it look Spartan.

Do they? Then you're right, this bonus would be largely useless. But what bonus would you give the Temple of Artemis?

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

The Temple of Artemis could possibly augment the strength of healer units in combat, making them increase the attack of soldiers. Also it could increase the loyalty of buildings.

[Mythos_Ruler]

I had an idea for the use of Wonders that I think is unique, instead of going the "Rise of Nations" route and giving them all unique special effects and such that would further complicate balancing. My idea is to make them all grant "influence." Essentially, each Wonder has a tech that can be researched once it is built. This is called "Influence", which unlocks three toggle options: Imperialism, Hegemony, Alliance. You can toggle between each one of these, which has different effects on the territory influence of all the buildings on the map (be careful, because each toggle costs resources!). Turning on "Imperialism" increases your own territory influence by +20%. Toggling to "Hegemony" reduces your enemy's territory influence -15%. Toggling "Alliance" increases the territory influence of all of your allies by +10%. This would obviously be a late-game thing, since you would first have to build a Wonder, then research Influence.

[Pedro Falcão]

I had an idea for the use of Wonders that I think is unique, instead of going the "Rise of Nations" route and giving them all unique special effects and such that would further complicate balancing. My idea is to make them all grant "influence." Essentially, each Wonder has a tech that can be researched once it is built. This is called "Influence", which unlocks three toggle options: Imperialism, Hegemony, Alliance. You can toggle between each one of these, which has different effects on the territory influence of all the buildings on the map (be careful, because each toggle costs resources!). Turning on "Imperialism" increases your own territory influence by +20%. Toggling to "Hegemony" reduces your enemy's territory influence -15%. Toggling "Alliance" increases the territory influence of all of your allies by +10%. This would obviously be a late-game thing, since you would first have to build a Wonder, then research Influence.

I agree that it would be better this way, but territory by itself isn't something so attractive, imo, maybe you could think of something else. Plus, a tech kills the awesomeness of defending a wonder, i mean if it is a tech and already researched, why would i want so desperately destroy that wonder? And if i don't want so desperately to destroy a wonder, what purpose would serve the wonder?

Edited October 25, 2012 by Pedro Falcão

[zoot]

I agree that it would be better this way, but territory by itself isn't something so attractive, imo, maybe you could think of something else. Plus, a tech kills the awesomeness of defending a wonder, i mean if it is a tech and already researched, why would i want so desperately destroy that wonder? And if i don't want so desperately to destroy a wonder, what purpose would serve the wonder?

The effect of the tech could be made dependent on the wonder surviving.

[feneur]

Yeah, I understood Michael's idea to be dependent on the wonder. The "tech" would just be to determine which effect the wonder would have.

[oshron]

so its more like there's three buttons on the Wonder that can be toggled on and off (one at a time or not at all)? sounds like a good way to raise incentive for building a Wonder outside of "wonder victory" settings. perhaps different Wonders can have one or another of the "techs" automatically enabled depending on that civilization's role or the Wonder's impresssions as a representation of that civilization's might. like, for example, the Parthenon could automatically have "Alliance" enabled while a hypothetical Western/Imperial Roman wonder would automatically have "Imperialism" enabled.

i'm for this idea, as well as having Wonder Victory conditions that can be turned on and off, but still think that more unique effects should be added in, but only for editor-only versions of the wonders that can't be built in normal gameplay

[Khopesh]

The unique effects could be done for the Campaign... but then that depends on the campaigns/story.

I think all Wonders should have more than just victory conditions attached. Like someone mentioned; wonders could provide a morale boost - providing a morale system is implemented in the game (I'm still unfamiliar with exactly what this game currently contains, and what it plans to in the future).

If there is no morale system then you could mimic it by increasing HP, Attack, or defense of units/buildings.

I think the "victory condition" effect would be enough incentive for players to want to destroy a wonder. If not, a boost to the units/buildings would certainly help.

[oshron]

what's been suggested so far (by myself and others) is:

• that every civ needs a Wonder (eventually)
  
• civs that can have a special wonder for water maps should (ex: Library of Alexandria and Lighthouse of Alexandria for the Macedonians)
  
• Wonders should grant victory under certain consitions if they stand for a set amount of time (like in AOE, etc.)
  
• Wonders should give a morale boost to allied units for existing
  
• Wonders should have two versions--regular gameplay buildable versions, and editor-only nonbuildable versions; regular gameplay versions all have the same effects no matter what they are or what civ builds them, but editor-only versions would grant unique powers depending on what the civ that built it is known for or what it stood for (Hanging Gardens, for instance, grants bonuses to gathering food; the Library of Alexandria would allow the player to research foreign technologies)
  
• Wonders should grant one of three abilities that can be toggled on or off one at a time and affect territorial influence: Imperialism improves the player's, Hegemony hurts the enemy's, and Alliance improves allies'
  

[LordGood]

Archimides Mirror or mirro Tower in AoE series

The Mirror towers of Syracuse made short work of my navy in AOE, but i loved them. I'd love to have them again!

[Ludo38]

Very nice model LordGood.

The mirror and its structure look good, but I would add some more structure so that we feel more the technical needs of the mirror, maybe ropes and cables that allow a large range of motion to the mirror as a tool. Maybe 1 or 2 scales climbing up to reach the mirror would make it even more realistic, for the maintainance. Also, it doesn't appear clearly on this shot if the feet of the mirror reach down the floor inside the tower or if it's just standing in the roof part. I see the feet going down inside the tower.

For detailed model, don't hesitate to make a few more captures to show other angles, that could be assembled in a single jpg with a quick montage, like on this example in my DA gallery.

[FeXoR]

Such a mirror never "burned" ships. So such a structure should not deal any damage to be historically accurate. By its glare it might reduce the maneuverability of enemy ships in its range though.

[oshron]

like i said, the buildable Wonders shouldnt do anything unique to one another, but an editor-only version could very well give a bonus where buildings do more damage to ships

[FeXoR]

but we can have a cheat to acces to Mirror Tower

Of cause! ^^

Edited November 5, 2012 by FeXoR

[Mythos_Ruler]

A Stupa like this would make for the perfect Mauryan wonder (even though it is a bit out of the time frame).

[Ludo38]

darn, such wonder in the game will be AWESOME !! Lot of work here, especially on frescos.

EDIT : ah, ok, that's not great for the time frame... :/

[lilstewie]

A Stupa like this would make for the perfect Mauryan wonder (even though it is a bit out of the time frame).

I wish you wouldn't.

[LordGood]

We do have the more relevant great stupas to work off of, how about we start there? this style is kind of different from the Mauryan architecture I've been working on

[lilstewie]

We do have the more relevant great stupas to work off of, how about we start there? this style is kind of different from the Mauryan architecture I've been working on

Yeah, It was built at the end of the Mauryan, Sunga(successor), Satavahana(successor) type styles. After this is the transition to the Gupta styles.

Edited November 9, 2012 by lilstewie

[Ludo38]

Enrique, your hanging gardens are really awesome and improve their context a lot. I caught this picture while visiting the Persian Sandbox map. It's from the inner courtyard garden.

If it doesn't requires too many polygons, I suggest to put back the bottom faces of the model, so we get zero visual bug while watching this wonder from every angle. I don't think the polygon count will explode because of that, and anyway, this building is really special.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Enrique, your hanging gardens are really awesome and improve their context a lot. I caught this picture while visiting the Persian Sandbox map. It's from the inner courtyard garden.

If it doesn't requires too many polygons, I suggest to put back the bottom faces of the model, so we get zero visual bug while watching this wonder from every angle. I don't think the polygon count will explode because of that, and anyway, this building is really special.

A player will never never never see this in the game. Adding hundreds of polygons for Atlas screenshots is not recommended.

[Ludo38]

A player will never never never see this in the game. Adding hundreds of polygons for Atlas screenshots is not recommended.

yeah, I understand.

[greeksword345]

the ishtar gate should be bigger