ProPlayer Posted August 23 Report Share Posted August 23 (edited) Balance Suggestions (Civ by Civ & General) Athenians Long Wall Tech Currently: Available only in P3, researched at the Council (60s). In practice, this means it’s not available until ~min 14–15, which makes walls in neutral territory before min 16 unrealistic. Suggestion: Available in P2 (at Civic Center or Market). Cost: 400 stone → 150 stone. Research time: 60s → 25s. Gymnasium Cost Question: Why is it cheaper than Han’s Academy or the Syssition? Suggestion: If not a civ bonus, increase cost to 150 stone + 150 metal. Britons Dogs Currently: Stronger side. Suggestion: Hack damage: 7 → 6.5. Consider armor upgrade tech (P2 or P3). Carthaginians Colonization Tech Currently: Hardly used; 200 metal in P1/P2 is too costly, and in P3 houses are usually already built. Suggestion: Cost 200 wood + 200 metal → 200 wood + 150 stone, available in P2. Gauls Bonuses Current advantages: 15% reduced forge costs. Additional farm tech. Eco hero. Small houses. Faster structure build time (huge eco advantage). Wide spectrum of champions (very flexible). Suggestion: Nerf eco bonuses (similar to Ptolemies, who pay with slower build times). Reduce capture value of small houses. Fanatics Currently: Same attack as spear champs, but less armor. Faster than spear champs. Stronger than metal spear champs in most situations (except 1v1 vs other infantry champs). Suggestion: Similar treatment as Persian infantry champs - If kept cheap, nerf attack (not only armor). Keep cost as is, and keep them in P2 for strategic diversity. Han Skipped (already reworked in community mod). Kushites Clubmen Currently: 60 metal but very weak (especially armor). Suggestion: Option 1: Hack armor 19% → 27%. Option 2 (preferred): Speed 9.5 → 11. Temple Guard Champions Currently: Limited by stone cost of temples (hard to mass more than 1–2). Suggestion: Napatan temple guard build time 15s → 10s. Elephant Hero Bonus Currently: Awkward to use effectively. Ptolemies Currently: P3 techs are often already researched; civ plays slowly. Suggestion: Allow Library in P2. Romans Marian Reforms Currently: Very strong in 1v1, potentially stronger than will to fight. Suggestion: Nerf. Siege Population Cost Currently: Catapult = 3 pop Bolt shooter = 2 pop Onager = 6 pop Onagers are cheap but not massable, while bolts outperform them in large numbers. Suggestion: Onager population 6 → 4. Spartans Syssition Cost Currently: Awkward in P1 (similar to the Kushite pyramid in the past). Leaves 50 metal if eco tech (100 metal) is researched, blocking champion production. Suggestion: Cost 150 stone + 150 metal → 200 stone + 100 metal. Krypteia Tech Currently: Located in champion building; awkward for rush/all-in. Suggestion: Move tech to Syssition, reduce research time 50s → 40s. General Balance Capture System Currently: Large houses = 550, small houses = 500 (small houses are OP). Suggestion: Large = 550, Small = 350. Suggestion: Units which have more experience or higher rank, like mercenaries or Skiritai should have higher capture strength. Elephant stables and arsenals are considerably too easy to capture when garrisoned. Can it be that 1 ram or 1 elephant only count as a single unit for capture point regeneration? Fanatics & Immortals Capture value: 5 → 3.5 (since they are cheaper/faster). Conscription Cost: 500 food → 400 food. Availability: P2. Theatron Currently: More expensive than fort, longer build, easy to capture, rarely used. Suggestion: Cost = 200 wood + 400 stone, Build time = 300s. Spear & Pike Champions (except fanatics) Currently: Rarely used in high-level play (1400+). Example: Athenians prefer sword champs (earlier + dock training). Seleucids prefer sword champs over pikes. Suggestion: Clearer role differentiation. Strong cav counter (e.g. 4× vs cav instead of 2.5 x). Increase armor for pike and spear champions. Tower Techs Currently: Too expensive (600–750 resources each). Making more towers instead is considerably cheaper. Suggestion: Crenellation = 200 stone + 200 metal. Arrow shooters = 250 wood + 200 metal. Sturdy foundations = 350 stone. Archers Currently: Weak compared to other ranged. Suggestion: Slight buff (5-10%) to stats or Archery Training tech. Elephants Currently: Not viable or not often seen in Pro 1x1 or TG for Kush, Ptolemies, Seleucids (only used with Mauryas, since stables are available in P2). Suggestion: Kushites: Elephant Stables in P2. Cost: 200 wood + 200 stone → 250–275 wood + 100 stone. Battlefield Medicine Currently: Costs 1000 food + 250 metal; applies only to idle units (not walking). Unused. Suggestion: Cost 1000f → 250f. Or regeneration +1 instead of +0.5. Aura Buildings Iberian Monument: 100 stone + 100 metal, P2, +20% dmg, 120s build. Kushite Pyramid: 450 stone + 150 metal, P3, 300s build. Suggestion: Kushite Pyramid → 200s build, 200 stone + 100 metal. Civic Center Balanced in P1, weak in P3. Suggestion: Increase attack in P3. Or allow forge arrow techs to apply to buildings. Ships Currently: Ram ships one-shot fishing ships → water battles snowball. Suggestion: Give fishing ships more armor (not one-shot). Reduce ram attack frequency. Wonders Glorious Expansion Tech Research time: 120s → 60s (since wonder itself is slow to build). Barter Suggestion: Decrease efficiency by 10%. Add tech: +15% barter efficiency, cost = 500 metal, 50s research. Siege Techs Currently: Extremely expensive. +25% health = 600 metal. -20% production = 600 wood. +25% attack = 800 wood + 500 metal. -40% unpack time = 800 food. Suggestion: Reduce costs by 50%. These are just suggestions, and I’m curious to see what other experienced players think. Do you agree with some of these changes? Are there better alternatives? Looking forward to hearing perspectives from fellow 1400+ players. Edited August 23 by ProPlayer 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real_tabasco_sauce Posted August 23 Report Share Posted August 23 Hello @ProPlayer thank you for compiling this list of balancing suggestions! I agree with a lot of them. I think I'll go ahead and make the PR for the han changes. 1 hour ago, ProPlayer said: Onager = 6 pop They are currently 3 pop, like catapults. Also, ranked up units do have higher capture attack. On clubmen, a lot of their utility is invalidated by the current capture balance, so I'd hesitate to give them so much speed. 1 hour ago, ProPlayer said: Or allow forge arrow techs to apply to buildings. How do people feel about replacing the building damage increase per age with this? I could go either way. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dakara Posted August 23 Report Share Posted August 23 (edited) Athenians Spoiler Long Wall Tech Currently: Available only in P3, researched at the Council (60s). In practice, this means it’s not available until ~min 14–15, which makes walls in neutral territory before min 16 unrealistic. Suggestion: Available in P2 (at Civic Center or Market). Cost: 400 stone → 150 stone. Research time: 60s → 25s. Anyway theses wall suck because we lost the property of wall in gaia territory except let a hole for cross, you can't control the door. Spoiler Gymnasium Cost Question: Why is it cheaper than Han’s Academy or the Syssition? Suggestion: If not a civ bonus, increase cost to 150 stone + 150 metal. Nothing to add, you right, but why this kind of building cost METAL? they should cost stone and wood. Britons Spoiler Dogs Currently: Stronger side. Suggestion: Hack damage: 7 → 6.5. Consider armor upgrade tech (P2 or P3). No opinion, but i vote for a upgrade tech for dogs. With expensive cost in P3 600 food 600 metal. They pop level max then. Carthaginians Spoiler Colonization Tech Currently: Hardly used; 200 metal in P1/P2 is too costly, and in P3 houses are usually already built. Suggestion: Cost 200 wood + 200 metal → 200 wood + 150 stone, available in P2. If we implement this technology, it will become indispensable. And I don't think that's good. For example, if we use stone, it slows down the various game options available for Carthage (slinger mercenaries or stable/barack spam). Perhaps we could come up with a different idea? For example, after 12 civilian constructions, the technology becomes free (same mechanism as the technology where you need three traders to harvest from allies). Gauls Bonuses Suggestion: Nerf eco bonuses (similar to Ptolemies, who pay with slower build times). Spoiler Reduce capture value of small houses. Lets go Kushites Spoiler Clubmen Currently: 60 metal but very weak (especially armor). Suggestion: Option 1: Hack armor 19% → 27%. Option 2 (preferred): Speed 9.5 → 11. Option 1 is legit Spoiler Temple Guard Champions Currently: Limited by stone cost of temples (hard to mass more than 1–2). Suggestion: Napatan temple guard build time 15s → 10s. Good idea to give a little advantage for compensate the building cost.. need a maurya as ally Spoiler Elephant Hero Bonus Currently: Awkward to use effectively. I don't understand his bonus for reduce the cost of same units( what unit it is??), i think the healer reduction is interesting (even if we don't use a lot, it should work on briton heroe healer!) They have 2 heroes ok so its fine Ptolemies Spoiler Currently: P3 techs are often already researched; civ plays slowly. Suggestion: Allow Library in P2. +1 ; / think its a big up of ptol but thye need something to pump them. Let's try it. But could be (win time for will to fight or build wonder in some mod of game), but their P3 is very stone dependant (and it slingers civ..) so they need something for deal with other civ Romans Spoiler Marian Reforms Currently: Very strong in 1v1, potentially stronger than will to fight. Suggestion: Nerf. Agree it not balance, it should't convert alive unit, just change the next unit. Spoiler Siege Population Cost Currently: Catapult = 3 pop Bolt shooter = 2 pop Onager = 6 pop Onagers are cheap but not massable, while bolts outperform them in large numbers. Suggestion: Onager population 6 → 4. Onagre is not already 3? Spartans Spoiler Krypteia Tech Currently: Located in champion building; awkward for rush/all-in. Suggestion: Move tech to Syssition, reduce research time 50s → 40s. Agree, and delete the malus on training time skirmish? General Balance Capture System Currently: Large houses = 550, small houses = 500 (small houses are OP). Suggestion: Large = 550, Small = 350. Spoiler Suggestion: Units which have more experience or higher rank, like mercenaries or Skiritai should have higher capture strength. it already the case, they have 4 capture instead 2,5 no? Spoiler Elephant stables and arsenals are considerably too easy to capture when garrisoned. Can it be that 1 ram or 1 elephant only count as a single unit for capture point regeneration? Theses units don't have capture attack.. it why. And it the reason i don't like siege building, easy to loose it, it was funnier when siege was train in fortress. Spoiler Fanatics & Immortals Capture value: 5 → 3.5 (since they are cheaper/faster). Disagree, we should have some common rules, infantery champ = 5 capture attack. Marines have also 5 and they are cheap. - Spoiler Conscription Cost: 500 food → 400 food. Availability: P2. I prefer we delete this tech Little clarity, no fun, we don't know exactly what it brings, some civs have it some don't have it, so we might as well encourage having more buildings. Rome have alreayd a little bonus Spoiler Theatron Currently: More expensive than fort, longer build, easy to capture, rarely used. Suggestion: Cost = 200 wood + 400 stone, Build time = 300s. So no opinion This building hasn't found much use. We have no idea how much extra space we'll end up with. It could be either OP in some cases or completely unnecessary. Spoiler Spear & Pike Champions (except fanatics) Currently: Rarely used in high-level play (1400+). Example: Athenians prefer sword champs (earlier + dock training). Seleucids prefer sword champs over pikes. Suggestion: Clearer role differentiation. Strong cav counter (e.g. 4× vs cav instead of 2.5 x). Increase armor for pike and spear champions. This is a big topic. Previously, melee units were just cannon fodder to receive hits. But we realized they should be good in infantry combat too. Without more talk we can't change something. Spoiler Tower Techs Currently: Too expensive (600–750 resources each). Making more towers instead is considerably cheaper. Suggestion: Crenellation = 200 stone + 200 metal. Arrow shooters = 250 wood + 200 metal. Sturdy foundations = 350 stone. Disagree, i think it normal they are expensive. Have quality should be expensiver than have quantity. Spoiler Archers Currently: Weak compared to other ranged. Suggestion: Slight buff (5-10%) to stats or Archery Training tech. If archers become better, all META can change, take care Melee unit received a lot of buff, maybe we can have a tech for increase the speed of upgrade unit archer? Spoiler Elephants Currently: Not viable or not often seen in Pro 1x1 or TG for Kush, Ptolemies, Seleucids (only used with Mauryas, since stables are available in P2). Suggestion: Kushites: Elephant Stables in P2. Cost: 200 wood + 200 stone → 250–275 wood + 100 stone. Why not Spoiler Battlefield Medicine Currently: Costs 1000 food + 250 metal; applies only to idle units (not walking). Unused. Suggestion: Cost 1000f → 250f. Or regeneration +1 instead of +0.5. Disagree, i prefer people train healer or micro the low life unit. Spoiler Civic Center Balanced in P1, weak in P3. Suggestion: Increase attack in P3. Or allow forge arrow techs to apply to buildings. Disagree, annoying turtle Spoiler Ships Currently: Ram ships one-shot fishing ships → water battles snowball. Suggestion: Give fishing ships more armor (not one-shot). Reduce ram attack frequency. Why not Spoiler Wonders Glorious Expansion Tech Research time: 120s → 60s (since wonder itself is slow to build). This tech afford a really uninteresting mechanic. let's delete it. Until we find a better way to balance this building The only funny thing is garnison 50 unit. Barter Suggestion: Spoiler Decrease efficiency by 10%. +1 Spoiler Add tech: +15% barter efficiency, cost = 500 metal, 50s research. Please don't add tech in market ahah Siege Techs Spoiler Currently: Extremely expensive. +25% health = 600 metal. -20% production = 600 wood. +25% attack = 800 wood + 500 metal. -40% unpack time = 800 food. Suggestion: Reduce costs by 50%. Siege already op. don't up them Edited August 23 by Dakara 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dakara Posted August 23 Report Share Posted August 23 (edited) Hello @ProPlayer thank you for compiling this list of balancing suggestions! I agree with a lot of them. I think I'll go ahead and make the PR for the han changes. 2 hours ago, ProPlayer said: Onager = 6 pop They are currently 3 pop, like catapults. Also, ranked up units do have higher capture attack. Spoiler On clubmen, a lot of their utility is invalidated by the current capture balance, so I'd hesitate to give them so much speed. GIVE THEM a counter siege unit X5 PLEASEEEEEE 2 hours ago, ProPlayer said: Or allow forge arrow techs to apply to buildings. Spoiler How do people feel about replacing the building damage increase per age with this? I could go either way. No, it's civil building. Edited August 23 by Dakara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProPlayer Posted August 23 Author Report Share Posted August 23 Thank you @real_tabasco_sauce for your work! Yes, I missed the onager population cost. Regarding the capture strength, I hovered over the structure tree of mercenaries and it showed 2.5, but yes, their building and the units itself show the correct value. Great to see a discussing evolving. @DakaraCurrently, the consensus is that archers are too weak, no? @ffm2showed statistics, that archer civs are not often taken and they perform badly. So the question is how to buff them. I agree, a careful approach is better. Maybe testing in the community mod is best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real_tabasco_sauce Posted August 23 Report Share Posted August 23 Yeah, Its unfortunate that archers need the archery tradition tech to feel at all worthwhile, which leaves carth archers in a terrible spot. At some point I think we need to do more to differentiate ranged units (more than just range+damage). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deicide4u Posted August 23 Report Share Posted August 23 (edited) 2 hours ago, Dakara said: I prefer we delete this tech I. E. Conscription. 2 hours ago, Dakara said: This tech afford a really uninteresting mechanic. let's delete it. Until we find a better way to balance this building For Glorious Expansion tech. Why should we delete these techs? GE is one of the only reasons you build a Wonder, and it allows you to have more units. Conscription decreases batch training time, nothing complicated there. Please, don't delete techs that have a purpose just because someone finds them "boring". Edited August 23 by Deicide4u Decreases, not increases training time 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deicide4u Posted August 23 Report Share Posted August 23 (edited) @Classic-Burger, the only reason Archers are good in AoE games is because they are faster than infantry. AoE also has no latency and faster atack animations, which allows hit-and-run micro. EDIT: You don't need to full quote people all tha time, and you don't have to fully quote the last reply either. Edited August 23 by Deicide4u Tidbit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seleucids Posted August 23 Report Share Posted August 23 I think the Macedonian spear champions are quite useful at countering enemy melee Cavs. The upgrade into silver shield is expensive but worth it. Overall, Macedonian civ is a bit op right now, but is reasonable. They are better than other civs because of the diversity: you can play any strategy you want. If your eco is failing, you can save yourself with Mercs. However, I am still more of a Celtics player than a Macedonian player 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dakara Posted August 23 Report Share Posted August 23 (edited) 4 hours ago, Classic-Burger said: Kushites need improve their archers because history matter and gameplay-wise. We've already given the Maurya some interesting features, like the fish effect. Many ancient civilizations were strong in BOW. So I vote for not making more differentiation on such a basic unit. Furthermore, if we boost champion archers too much (I find them decent in TG pocket but a bit below the others), we'll be rewarding people without skills. Their strength is their range. This is invaluable in stats, like a unit's speed. --- lets reduce all resistance of woman to 0 also ! they should die easier for improve the skill Edited August 23 by Dakara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dakara Posted August 23 Report Share Posted August 23 3 hours ago, Deicide4u said: I. E. Conscription. For Glorious Expansion tech. Why should we delete these techs? GE is one of the only reasons you build a Wonder, and it allows you to have more units. Conscription decreases batch training time, nothing complicated there. Please, don't delete techs that have a purpose just because someone finds them "boring". Wonder give passively ressource income, and in the past gave a little amount of maximal pop. Today you have to build it with a lot of builder and they waste ressource for 2Min tech, instead spam champ. It useless in basic game, only useful on long game for average player. It only good for win by wonder in funny game. And have a big temple -- Many old technologies have already been removed, and the game is evolving. Maybe we can come up with something better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emacz Posted August 23 Report Share Posted August 23 7 hours ago, ProPlayer said: Balance Suggestions (Civ by Civ & General) Athenians Long Wall Tech Currently: Available only in P3, researched at the Council (60s). In practice, this means it’s not available until ~min 14–15, which makes walls in neutral territory before min 16 unrealistic. Suggestion: Available in P2 (at Civic Center or Market). Cost: 400 stone → 150 stone. Research time: 60s → 25s. Gymnasium Cost Question: Why is it cheaper than Han’s Academy or the Syssition? Suggestion: If not a civ bonus, increase cost to 150 stone + 150 metal. Britons Dogs Currently: Stronger side. Suggestion: Hack damage: 7 → 6.5. Consider armor upgrade tech (P2 or P3). Carthaginians Colonization Tech Currently: Hardly used; 200 metal in P1/P2 is too costly, and in P3 houses are usually already built. Suggestion: Cost 200 wood + 200 metal → 200 wood + 150 stone, available in P2. Gauls Bonuses Current advantages: 15% reduced forge costs. Additional farm tech. Eco hero. Small houses. Faster structure build time (huge eco advantage). Wide spectrum of champions (very flexible). Suggestion: Nerf eco bonuses (similar to Ptolemies, who pay with slower build times). Reduce capture value of small houses. Fanatics Currently: Same attack as spear champs, but less armor. Faster than spear champs. Stronger than metal spear champs in most situations (except 1v1 vs other infantry champs). Suggestion: Similar treatment as Persian infantry champs - If kept cheap, nerf attack (not only armor). Keep cost as is, and keep them in P2 for strategic diversity. Han Skipped (already reworked in community mod). Kushites Clubmen Currently: 60 metal but very weak (especially armor). Suggestion: Option 1: Hack armor 19% → 27%. Option 2 (preferred): Speed 9.5 → 11. Temple Guard Champions Currently: Limited by stone cost of temples (hard to mass more than 1–2). Suggestion: Napatan temple guard build time 15s → 10s. Elephant Hero Bonus Currently: Awkward to use effectively. Ptolemies Currently: P3 techs are often already researched; civ plays slowly. Suggestion: Allow Library in P2. Romans Marian Reforms Currently: Very strong in 1v1, potentially stronger than will to fight. Suggestion: Nerf. Siege Population Cost Currently: Catapult = 3 pop Bolt shooter = 2 pop Onager = 6 pop Onagers are cheap but not massable, while bolts outperform them in large numbers. Suggestion: Onager population 6 → 4. Spartans Syssition Cost Currently: Awkward in P1 (similar to the Kushite pyramid in the past). Leaves 50 metal if eco tech (100 metal) is researched, blocking champion production. Suggestion: Cost 150 stone + 150 metal → 200 stone + 100 metal. Krypteia Tech Currently: Located in champion building; awkward for rush/all-in. Suggestion: Move tech to Syssition, reduce research time 50s → 40s. General Balance Capture System Currently: Large houses = 550, small houses = 500 (small houses are OP). Suggestion: Large = 550, Small = 350. Suggestion: Units which have more experience or higher rank, like mercenaries or Skiritai should have higher capture strength. Elephant stables and arsenals are considerably too easy to capture when garrisoned. Can it be that 1 ram or 1 elephant only count as a single unit for capture point regeneration? Fanatics & Immortals Capture value: 5 → 3.5 (since they are cheaper/faster). Conscription Cost: 500 food → 400 food. Availability: P2. Theatron Currently: More expensive than fort, longer build, easy to capture, rarely used. Suggestion: Cost = 200 wood + 400 stone, Build time = 300s. Spear & Pike Champions (except fanatics) Currently: Rarely used in high-level play (1400+). Example: Athenians prefer sword champs (earlier + dock training). Seleucids prefer sword champs over pikes. Suggestion: Clearer role differentiation. Strong cav counter (e.g. 4× vs cav instead of 2.5 x). Increase armor for pike and spear champions. Tower Techs Currently: Too expensive (600–750 resources each). Making more towers instead is considerably cheaper. Suggestion: Crenellation = 200 stone + 200 metal. Arrow shooters = 250 wood + 200 metal. Sturdy foundations = 350 stone. Archers Currently: Weak compared to other ranged. Suggestion: Slight buff (5-10%) to stats or Archery Training tech. Elephants Currently: Not viable or not often seen in Pro 1x1 or TG for Kush, Ptolemies, Seleucids (only used with Mauryas, since stables are available in P2). Suggestion: Kushites: Elephant Stables in P2. Cost: 200 wood + 200 stone → 250–275 wood + 100 stone. Battlefield Medicine Currently: Costs 1000 food + 250 metal; applies only to idle units (not walking). Unused. Suggestion: Cost 1000f → 250f. Or regeneration +1 instead of +0.5. Aura Buildings Iberian Monument: 100 stone + 100 metal, P2, +20% dmg, 120s build. Kushite Pyramid: 450 stone + 150 metal, P3, 300s build. Suggestion: Kushite Pyramid → 200s build, 200 stone + 100 metal. Civic Center Balanced in P1, weak in P3. Suggestion: Increase attack in P3. Or allow forge arrow techs to apply to buildings. Ships Currently: Ram ships one-shot fishing ships → water battles snowball. Suggestion: Give fishing ships more armor (not one-shot). Reduce ram attack frequency. Wonders Glorious Expansion Tech Research time: 120s → 60s (since wonder itself is slow to build). Barter Suggestion: Decrease efficiency by 10%. Add tech: +15% barter efficiency, cost = 500 metal, 50s research. Siege Techs Currently: Extremely expensive. +25% health = 600 metal. -20% production = 600 wood. +25% attack = 800 wood + 500 metal. -40% unpack time = 800 food. Suggestion: Reduce costs by 50%. These are just suggestions, and I’m curious to see what other experienced players think. Do you agree with some of these changes? Are there better alternatives? Looking forward to hearing perspectives from fellow 1400+ players. you should check out historcal mod, we worked on some of these, and Ill talk to the group about incorporating even more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrstgtr Posted August 23 Report Share Posted August 23 15 minutes ago, Dakara said: And have a big temple According to @Nescio, the genius that brought us a24 and all the most hated features of a25, that makes it a useful building. What was done to the wonder made zero sense and it should change back or be made otherwise useful. Personally, I think wonder should be made cheaper so there is actually a decision point at the start of p3 where a player decides to (1) push fast with CS, (2) spam champs, (3) get wtf, or (4) get extra pop with a wonder. All four should be valid choices but right now only the first two are viable 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dakara Posted August 23 Report Share Posted August 23 19 minutes ago, Classic-Burger said: Neither of them excels in archery. There should have been one and the Kushites had that reputation as tough warriors for centuries. What are the Kushites good at? athens champ archer spam is viable no? maurya champ archer spam is good too. Some persians play immortal (cheap archer champ) Kush are ok tiers. Merc cav available. Champ cav in stable, feature of pyramide, bonus heroe ok, large choice of infantery melee, siege tower available, tanky building with tech. Maybe one die we see a proplayer use elefant? but other civ do it better i think but stone dependant for go in a lot of way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emacz Posted August 24 Report Share Posted August 24 3 hours ago, Classic-Burger said: I think I should clarify that the concept of "archer rush" I have in mind is in a early stage between phase 1 and 2. Probably within 20 minutes or so. shouldn't game be close to over around 20 min!?! at least 1x1 IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real_tabasco_sauce Posted August 24 Report Share Posted August 24 @Classic-Burger in more high-level multiplayer games, 200 population might be reached by 11-13 minutes. Typically rushes in these games are between 2 and 5 minutes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senator_LEVi Posted August 24 Report Share Posted August 24 1 hour ago, Classic-Burger said: Not a long one. I don't know how long an archer rush would take in practice. Many matches last 30-40 minutes. With Mauryas you could do it almost the entire game, dancing around nearby woodlines. Of course you need to really work it to the point where the enemy pocket comes to help. Thereby giving your ally all the time advantage to roll them at minute 12-13. In 1v1s you can do both. Slowly adding melee when you're ready to capture. But it needs to be quick wherein enemy does not get eco time to tower all sides of the base. You could also do a small 3-4 minute rush and possibly take a barrack, retreat back and ecobot. I've also tried doing Mercenary archers with Athens, Seleuids, Ptolemies and Macedonians and have had relative success and failure. Latter being due to my own mistakes. But all are fun strategies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senator_LEVi Posted August 24 Report Share Posted August 24 @Classic-Burger I use 25-30. Atleast at my level, (1400, whatever that might mean) it works against enemies. You can snipe away cavalry, and a few spearmen close by is easy counter to melee cav civs. You can camp around the enemy with archers and elephant. But the sight and vision that you mentioned would be fun, but I think it's not completely fair since you can't tilt the camera to ground level to look at the forest floor. Hiding watch towers is interesting too, but easier to spot. Is Praetorians a different game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreakfastBurrito_007 Posted August 24 Report Share Posted August 24 I like the idea with ptol library in p2, but I feel like maybe a slight cost addition and significant build time addition is necessary. Ideally it can be buildable in p2 but not something that can always be built immediately upon reaching p2. It should be a challenge to time its construction between eco or military techs in order to maximize value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrstgtr Posted August 24 Report Share Posted August 24 2 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said: I like the idea with ptol library in p2, but I feel like maybe a slight cost addition and significant build time addition is necessary. Ideally it can be buildable in p2 but not something that can always be built immediately upon reaching p2. It should be a challenge to time its construction between eco or military techs in order to maximize value. It's not very useful in p3. By the time you build it you've already researched all the eco techs and basically all the military techs. If you delay doing techs then your eco is way too slow and you're also vulnerable to early pushes from your enemy. So, right now, the library is basically only useful for (1) getting a cheaper wtf, which is a clunky and annoying way to make a less commonly researched tech cheaper, (2) getting a cheaper glorious expansion cheaper, which is, again, a clunky and annoying way to make a tech that is almost never researched cheaper, and (3) make techs affordable on ultra low resource maps. I'm not sure how the library should be priced. Right now it usually doesn't make sense to build. There should be some tradeoff calculation where it sometimes makes sense and it sometimes doesn't Right now, that calculation is almost entirely absent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreakfastBurrito_007 Posted August 24 Report Share Posted August 24 1 hour ago, chrstgtr said: It's not very useful in p3. By the time you build it you've already researched all the eco techs and basically all the military techs. If you delay doing techs then your eco is way too slow and you're also vulnerable to early pushes from your enemy. So, right now, the library is basically only useful for (1) getting a cheaper wtf, which is a clunky and annoying way to make a less commonly researched tech cheaper, (2) getting a cheaper glorious expansion cheaper, which is, again, a clunky and annoying way to make a tech that is almost never researched cheaper, and (3) make techs affordable on ultra low resource maps. I'm not sure how the library should be priced. Right now it usually doesn't make sense to build. There should be some tradeoff calculation where it sometimes makes sense and it sometimes doesn't Right now, that calculation is almost entirely absent. I agree, I just want to make sure that we don't go from it being something that's almost never built to being something that's always built and at a set time in an optimal build order. I think having situation dependent gameplay choices is essential, so if its too much of a gimme then it has less gameplay enrichment value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCJ Posted August 25 Report Share Posted August 25 (edited) library in p2 would make the p3 tech in the cc cheaper, no? thats op (We moved library p2 in historical patch and had to nerf it by adding three techs inside that you have to get first to get any reduction, because instantly building a library in p2 and getting a discount on every single forge tech, all p2 and p3 eco upgrades, the p3 upgrade and w2f is pretty op) Edited August 25 by TheCJ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrstgtr Posted August 25 Report Share Posted August 25 @TheCJ @BreakfastBurrito_007 Yeah, I’m not sure the library as it currently exists—a straight resource reduction—even makes sense. It might make sense to change it a bit. Making it the same but behind other techs that you have to research just sounds like making changes to make changes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCJ Posted August 25 Report Share Posted August 25 (edited) 7 hours ago, chrstgtr said: Making it the same but behind other techs that you have to research just sounds like making changes to make changes I get that it sounds that way, but the way we did it* actually gives the player more agency while making the library not quite as powerful as a full p2 variant, but still more useful as in vanilla. (* we put a tech for each "category" of techs in the library; "Gather scrolls on military knowledge", "Gather ... economic ..." and "Gather ... general ...", where each of them applies the reduction to the relevant area. That way, the player can choose what is more important right now/for his gameplan. But each unlock tech in the library takes 60s i think, so by the time you got all three youre already in p3, at which point the library is as useful as in vanilla) Edited August 25 by TheCJ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seleucids Posted August 25 Report Share Posted August 25 The Ptol library is ok as it is; it is neither op nor completely useless. If you know that your enemy is not going to push early, you can fly P2 with just 3 forges then leave all military techs to P3 after you have the library. In terms of absolute numbers of resources, you are saving a lot. However, you are delaying yourself with the extra build power investment and the delays, so you would be at a disadvantage if you get attacked. This means the Library is the most useful when you are up against another turtle player, in which case you aim for wtf tech 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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