Overhaul of the Citizen system

[Deicide4u]

We all know that current citizen-soldiers can work and build buildings, as well as fight.

This has been a major turn off for many people who came from Age of Empires and similar games. Instead of regurgitating all that's been said in the past, I'll just post a link to a comment that described it best:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32993448

So, I'll propose a system that's already present in some mods for the game, with a few caveats.

The major changes would include the following.
1) Citizen-soldiers are no longer citizens.
They are basic soldiers that can't gather any resource, but can still build some military buildings. Rationale is that this separates the responsibilities between your fighting units and economic units. This is a key trait that has defined RTS genre from the beginning.

2) Women are replaced by a "Citizen" unit that is randomly assigned a gender when created.
These citizens are your economic units. They can gather resources, build all buildings, repair, etc. They don't have different gather rates, the difference is cosmetic. They cost only 50 food, so you don't waste wood on building any gatherers in the early game. Obviously, this requires a new model for male citizens.

3) Common soldiers can only be trained at the Barracks, Stables or Archery Ranges.
Soldiers will not be able to build Civic Centers, nor should they be trainable from the Civic Centers. Some mercenary units that cost Metal could be made as an exception to this rule.

4) Common soldiers can still gain ranks as normal.
No change is required here. Players can choose to train cheaper, more expendable units, or spend more resources for champions.

I don't want to sound divisive, but the current model is very off-putting for someone who just wants to sit down and play a fun game. Different gather rates for females and male citizen-soldiers are the core of this issue. Why keep this feature and needlessly complicate the player's decision making in the early game? The player should gain options as he/she advances through the phases, builds up their town, researches upgrades. Not immediately at the start. Not to mention the balance considerations, the needless code that went into implementing a very questionable design decision. Even from the historical standpoint.

Thank you for reading all this. If not, here's a TL:DR:

Citizen-soldiers are an outdated concept, that has needlessly complicated the gameplay of this very promising RTS game for so long. The player must have a clear decision-tree at the start of each game, and gain options as he/she advances through the phases. The player shouldn't be punished for making gatherers (the wood cost). There should be a clear distinction between economic and military units. A new "Citizen" unit could replace the female worker, with a new male model added for each civilization. Citizen-soldiers could become just basic, expendable troops.

Edited March 28 by Deicide4u

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Its been talked about before, but citizen soldiers are quite fundamental to 0ad.

There's a big discussion here: 

Citizen soldiers allow for big battles that distinguish 0ad from aoe2, and they are quite historically accurate which is something 0ad strives to achieve. That being said, they contribute to snowballing, and mainly contribute to the "booming = turtling" phenomenon.

I would like to not abandon citizen soldiers entirely, as it makes 0ad unique, but we can increase the importance of non-soldier gatherers by changing gather rates and/or by introducing a new "laborer" unit.

[Emacz]

1 hour ago, Deicide4u said:

We all know that current citizen-soldiers can work and build buildings, as well as fight.

This has been a major turn off for many people who came from Age of Empires and similar games. Instead of regurgitating all that's been said in the past, I'll just post a link to a comment that described it best:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32993448

So, I'll propose a system that's already present in some mods for the game, with a few caveats.

The major changes would include the following.
1) Citizen-soldiers are no longer citizens.
They are basic soldiers that can't gather any resource, but can still build some military buildings. Rationale is that this separates the responsibilities between your fighting units and economic units. This is a key trait that has defined RTS genre from the beginning.

2) Women are replaced by a "Citizen" unit that is randomly assigned a gender when created.
These citizens are your economic units. They can gather resources, build all buildings, repair, etc. They don't have different gather rates, the difference is cosmetic. They cost only 50 food, so you don't waste wood on building any gatherers in the early game. Obviously, this requires a new model for male citizens.

3) Common soldiers can only be trained at the Barracks, Stables or Archery Ranges.
Soldiers will not be able to build Civic Centers, nor should they be trainable from the Civic Centers. Some mercenary units that cost Metal could be made as an exception to this rule.

4) Common soldiers can still gain ranks as normal.
No change is required here. Players can choose to train cheaper, more expendable units, or spend more resources for champions.

I don't want to sound divisive, but the current model is very off-putting for someone who just wants to sit down and play a fun game. Different gather rates for females and male citizen-soldiers are the core of this issue. Why keep this feature and needlessly complicate the player's decision making in the early game? The player should gain options as he/she advances through the phases, builds up their town, researches upgrades. Not immediately at the start. Not to mention the balance considerations, the needless code that went into implementing a very questionable design decision. Even from the historical standpoint.

Thank you for reading all this. If not, here's a TL:DR:

Citizen-soldiers are an outdated concept, that has needlessly complicated the gameplay of this very promising RTS game for so long. The player must have a clear decision-tree at the start of each game, and gain options as he/she advances through the phases. The player shouldn't be punished for making gatherers (the wood cost). There should be a clear distinction between economic and military units. A new "Citizen" unit could replace the female worker, with a new male model added for each civilization. Citizen-soldiers could become just basic, expendable troops.

 

6 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Its been talked about before, but citizen soldiers are quite fundamental to 0ad.

There's a big discussion here: 

Citizen soldiers allow for big battles that distinguish 0ad from aoe2, and they are quite historically accurate which is something 0ad strives to achieve. That being said, they contribute to snowballing, and mainly contribute to the "booming = turtling" phenomenon.

I would like to not abandon citizen soldiers entirely, as it makes 0ad unique, but we can increase the importance of non-soldier gatherers by changing gather rates and/or by introducing a new "laborer" unit.

I think both of you have good points.  And of course, I'm going to encourage you the take a look at historical patch.  We have tried addressing this a little.  As there are now "serf" units which can still fight but not as well as CS, but are better at gathering res.  Then you have the merc type units that can build and fight, but not gather.  And of course you have the champion, elite fighters who cant gather or build.  

I like the historical accuracy of the citizen soldier, and the more i read and learn about the different civilizations I agree its an important aspect of 0ad that makes it unique!

[Grautvornix]

In DelendaEst there is the additional concept of slaves (with a limited lifetime due to the hard life they are forced to endure). Could that be the additional working unit you are looking for?

[Emacz]

2 hours ago, Grautvornix said:

In DelendaEst there is the additional concept of slaves (with a limited lifetime due to the hard life they are forced to endure). Could that be the additional working unit you are looking for?

yeah and the templates exist in the base game, just aren't implemented yet.  We've played around with that too on historical. 

[LienRag]

Citizen soldiers are a staple of Oad indeed, but the OP has a point about the difficulty of mounting raids in 0ad.

Which reduces the diversity of tactics (while everyone knows that diversity of tactics is important).

 

Maybe we should find another way to allow more trade-offs between eco and military ?

[Deicide4u]

@LienRag, one option could be to move access to Battering Rams to the Town phase. No Catapults and Bolt shooters, just rams. This would allow more military options, earlier.

Reasoning is that in all "Age of" games, players have access to siege weapons in the second-to-last age. Weak reasoning, I know.
Here's a better one: no more only "boom and turtle to win" strategies.

No need to do it in the next release, though.

EDIT: Also off-topic, so regard the above thought as just me thinking out-loud.

Edited April 6 by Deicide4u
Off topic ramblings of an Age casual.

[LienRag]

Incas have those already.

Not sure that it's a good idea to have all civs get that.

It's fine imho to have raids in first phase but not the ability to destroy an enemy - zerg rushes are quite detrimental to a game.

[Emacz]

3 hours ago, Deicide4u said:

@LienRag, one option could be to move access to Battering Rams to the Town phase. No Catapults and Bolt shooters, just rams. This would allow more military options, earlier.

Reasoning is that in all "Age of" games, players have access to siege weapons in the second-to-last age. Weak reasoning, I know.
Here's a better one: no more only "boom and turtle to win" strategies.

No need to do it in the next release, though.

EDIT: Also off-topic, so regard the above thought as just me thinking out-loud.

we have a "town" Battering ram in historical.  Also reduced the cc's starting range to 45, although we gave a tech in p1 that can increase to 55.  But makes you choose your path in a way.

[Dakara]

Are we playing the same game? No problem rushing or being rushed without being P3. Both in teams and in 1 vs 1 games. It is possible to capture buildings to damage someone.

[Deicide4u]

I've found this old, yet interesting thread. Might be a fun (re)read.

 

[Dakara]

you can do a AOE mod if you want,so we can try. Actually i don't like at all your idea but why not test

 

in AOE villagers are good in P1 for fight