Germans [Cimbri]redesign for TM

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

29 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

El famoso sequel... in the end it won't be a different game but an extension of the current Empires Ascendant right? So all the factions from Empires Besieged would be available alongside those from Empires Ascendant, right?

Right. Like an old school "Expansion Pack," ala Age of Empires.

[Stan`]

33 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

So if I understand your message correctly, the Cimbri won't be a part of the main game (Empires Ascendant), only a civ for a mod. Right?

Correct. But to be fair the Han were "only a civ for a mod" too. So maybe in the future.

33 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

El famoso sequel... in the end it won't be a different game but an extension of the current Empires Ascendant right? So all the factions from Empires Besieged would be available alongside those from Empires Ascendant, right?

Yeah, probably same mechanics, different civs.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, Genava55 said:

is there some kind of euphoria spreading in the forum or just immaturity?

Both.

 

We are stealing...I mean implementing Germans to Terra Magna. One of our top mods. Having factions here is considered almost official. The factions that are in this mod are candidates to be part of the main game.

Apart from the gameplay, factions and cultures is a kind of drug (people become obsessed) that attracts players to this kind of games.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Yekaterina was talking about the instructions I gave her to adapt it.

Shee gave me a series of problems that she found.

[Yekaterina]

Nevermind, I misunderstood. I thought I was polishing the civs because they will be added to public in some later alpha, so I was wondering which one to add first. Since the Germans are for Terra Magna, then I will just work on them and ignore whatever goes on in public. 

[Genava55]

2 hours ago, Stan` said:

Correct. But to be fair the Han were "only a civ for a mod" too. So maybe in the future.

Yeah, probably same mechanics, different civs.

Thanks. If I am asking you a few questions, this is simply to understand what's going on in a longer term perspective.

I also think it's worth remembering that the Germans have a long and turbulent history.

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They appeared in history with the Cimbri and the Bastarnae during the second century BC, for the first they were a migration of a vast population in search of a new territory which involved other peoples and chiefs in its wake, probably in a way quite similar to the Celtic migrations into Italy and Greece. The latter were probably a conglomeration of populations, also on the run, but who settled fairly quickly in Moldavia and near the Danube Delta. A little later in the 1st century BC, it was the Germans of the Elbe region who united under a powerful leader and began to take control of different territories. This leads to upheavals in neighboring regions. The Sequani seek the aid of the Suebi against the Aedui supported by Rome. We see peoples like the Ubians, the Tencteri and the Usipetes confront each other and try to migrate to Gaul. The Helvetii attempted the same approach in order to avoid upheaval and looting. This first period is therefore characterized by different migration attempts on the part of the Germans. The Cimbri failed for different reasons. They had some success, notably by plundering Illyria, the Noric kingdom and Transalpine Gaul under Roman control. However, they are repulsed by the Scordisci, by the Boians, by the Belgians and by the Celtiberians. Even when they defeat the Norici, they do not settle there. On the contrary, each victory excites them and encourages them to continue. During their plunder, they attracted the lust of other peoples and this is probably how the Teutones, Ambrones, Tigurini (Helvetians), Toygeni (Helvetians) and Volcae Tectosages end up joining them. The first successes against the Romans are annihilated by the defeats that Marius inflicts on them. Concerning Ariovistus, he succeeded in installing part of his population, the Harudes, on the territory of the Sequani. The rest of the Suevi coalition settled near the Rhine, including the Triboci, the Nemetes, the Vangions and the Marcomanni. These took territories from the Celts, probably shortly before the Gallic Wars. However Ariovistus is defeated by Caesar and the Harudes were expelled. The success of this migration is partial, but it foreshadows the geopolitical context to come. The Germanic populations monopolized a territory between the Rhine and the Elbe, which will become a part of Germania. The only people who had a total success are the Bastarnae who permanently occupied the territory located in Moldavia. They lived here for over 500 years.

In a second time, the Germanic migrations calm down. At least, they no longer concern the Greco-Roman world. The Germans have a complicated relationship with their Roman neighbors, they very often receive diplomatic gifts intended to calm their ambition, they regularly serve the armies of Rome and most clashes with the Romans are mainly on the territory of the Germans and are defensive wars (for them). The Germanic world was mainly turned in on itself at that time. During this period, the Suevi (and other Elbe Germans) played a minor role in history. They underwent the campaign of Drusus and it is probable that the Suevi and the Marcomanni left the region near the Rhine following this campaign. From that moment on, the Suevi are either allies or client kingdoms of the Romans. It was other peoples who faced Rome, notably the Cherusci, Bructeri, Marsi, Sicambri, Chauci, Chatti and Batavi. Eventually the Elbe Germans again became an interest only with the Marcomannic Wars (AD 166–180).

During the period of migrations, the most active Germanic peoples are the Goths and by far. They are the most powerful and successful people. Then come the Franks and the Alamanni. The former are Germans from the Rhine, the latter are Germans from the Elbe. The Franks and Alamanni tried to plunder the Roman Empire several times and to settle there during the 3rd and 4th centuries, but they were successful only during the beginning of the 5th century. There are also the Saxons, known for their invasion of Britannia, but most of their interesting history happened after the 5th century, so they are probably not considered for Empires Besieged. The Vandals can be considered as close to the Goths, as they are Eastern Germans too, nonetheless they are a powerful and successful people during the 5th century.

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So it should be considered there are other Germanic people famous and probably future candidates. I have no doubt that the Goths will be considered, this is already the case in DE.

Cimbri, Suebi and Goths... this is already 3 civs.

It is a problem quite similar to the Greek city-states and to the Hellenistic kingdoms. If you start looking, there are interesting candidates (Syracuse, Thebes, Corinth, Pergamon, Bithynia, Pontus, Bosphorus, Bactria etc.)

Edited February 26, 2023 by Genava55

[Lion.Kanzen]

45 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

So it should be considered there are other Germanic people famous and probably future candidates. I have no doubt that the Goths will be considered, this is already the case in DE.

Cimbri, Suebi and Goths... this is already 3 civs.

in theory those of the second part as being lombards and vandals, without counting franks and Alamani...

Most of them are people seeking refuge in the Roman Empire, they are nomads by force, since they fled from the wars caused by the Huns and Sarmatians.

 

That style of nomad for reasons of war would be an aggressive way to take over new lands.

I envision a mode called looting/sack.

They devastated the captured buildings and "barbarized" them.

I imagine an ancient Roman city being turned into a rural town.

But this will be with factions of the 4th-5th century.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

this was the first attempt.

 

   

  

       

[Lion.Kanzen]

 

https://youtu.be/yPmNuy6XhsU

 

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by Lion.Kanzen

[Ultimate Aurelian]

R2TW Symbol:

Based on the Gundestrup Cauldron, maybe not the best choice since it was imported from somewhere else.

 

Cover from a book that will come out in August:

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

R2TW Symbol:

Based on the Gundestrup Cauldron, maybe not the best choice since it was imported from somewhere else.

 

Cover from a book that will come out in August:

 

 

could be used as a symbol for banner or for map.(The interface now uses symbols on the uncharted map.)

[Genava55]

2 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Based on the Gundestrup Cauldron, maybe not the best choice since it was imported from somewhere else.

https://www.worldhistory.org/Cernunnos/

2 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Cover from a book that will come out in August:

Johnny Shumate

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Genava55

[Lion.Kanzen]

this helps to know how he was represented.(It would be scary to meet that being at night)

[Ultimate Aurelian]

On 23/02/2023 at 5:18 AM, Genava55 said:

 The Cimbri had Boiorix for king, the Teutones and Ambrones had Teutobad. Two chieftains of the Cimbri are also mentionned Claodicus and Caesorix.

So I think the only candidate are the Cimbri, just to have enough historical figures.

Those sound like Celtic names.

Do you think it's possible they spoke a Celtic language?

 

[Genava55]

10 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Those sound like Celtic names.

Do you think it's possible they spoke a Celtic language?

 

If they are coming from Jutland, no. Probably not. What is uncertain is who were the kings. The Cimbri were the first to migrate, but other peoples followed them too. In a coalition, it is common at this time to elect a chieftain as the leader of the group. For example, Vercingetorix was the leader of a coalition during the Gallic Wars. It doesn't mean he was a proper monarch, ruling above everyone. It means that for the time of the coalition, he had the leadership and the authority. We don't know who were the kings mentioned for the Cimbri. Maybe they were from a different people being a part of their coalition. Furthermore, the names sound Celtic because the Romans transcripted them in Latin. So they sound Celtic because we are used to see the same structure in Celtic names transcripted in Latin. This is the case with numerous names from Germanic leaders. Ariovistus for example.

If the assumption is to depict the Cimbri with Germanic material, then we should consider them Germanic.

[Obskiuras]

Excuse me, could someone (@Genava55 @Ultimate Aurelian) recommend a historian who has described in detail how the Cimbians were armed (helmet, shields,etc) in the Cimbrian War? maybe Plutarch or someone else.

[Genava55]

3 hours ago, Obskiuras said:

Excuse me, could someone (@Genava55 @Ultimate Aurelian) recommend a historian who has described in detail how the Cimbians were armed (helmet, shields,etc) in the Cimbrian War? maybe Plutarch or someone else.

https://topostext.org/work/194#Mar.25.7

 

[Obskiuras]

§ Mar.25.7  and their horsemen, fifteen thousand strong, rode out in splendid style, with helmets made to resemble the maws of frightful wild beasts or the heads of strange animals, which, with their towering crests of feathers, made their wearers appear taller than they really were; they were also equipped with breastplates of iron, and carried gleaming white shields. For hurling, each man had two lances; and at close quarters they used large, heavy swords.

Interesting description.

[Obskiuras]

It´s a shame that there are no archaeological finds of these helmets and armor.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Obskiuras