Aldandil

So God brings out the archangels when He's fed up with a Christian civ player's lack of gaming skills? Sorry, that sentence was too funny not to respond.

Also, the winged humanoid version of angels isn't the only way they're depicted. They could be other, totally non-humanoid shapes, such as ophanim which look like spinning wheels covered with eyes. If you don't want to make all the angel myth units look similar and redundant, using the Biblical references for non-humanoid appearances would be very cool and arguably more accurate. As for using the cherub and archangel as myth units, it's worth checking to see if those are pretty high ranks, and maybe using one of the other ranks (ophanim, principalities, thrones, dominions, powers, virtues) might work better. You could try to find more info about them and what they do to serve God.

Hm, if Angels and Archangels are available as myth units, what about other orders of angels? There is an angelology that posits seven "ranks" or choirs (I don't know the word used) of angels, I think they are Thrones, Powers, Dominions, Angels, Archangels, Cherubim, and Seraphim. I don't know which are the most powerful/important and which the important angels such as Michael, Gabriel, etc. belong to according to that angelology, but if you have the good lesser "gods" for the Christians be very important/high-ranked angels, then you could potentially use the lesser ranks of angels as myth units. And I suppose that you could have demons that can possess enemy units, and maybe nephilim, as myth units specific to Lucifer. Likewise, for the Mandinka Muslim civ, there could be good djinn and/or ifrit myth units specific to Allah, and evil djinn and/or ifrit myth units specific to Ibliss.

That is incorrect. It is a lie promoted by apologists of the atrocities committed at that time, and repeated by people who don't know it's a lie. Don't believe it.Many Greeks, Egyptians, and Italians converted willingly, even before Christianity was legal, and suffered persecution. Many other people did not want to convert and were forced against their will by the Christian emperors. They made laws outlawing non-Christian practices and the temples were systematically destroyed or "converted" into churches so non-Christians could not use them. There are actual written records of the oppression and destruction, and of how the victims resisted without success for centuries afterwards, sometimes peacefully and sometimes violently. The Alexandrian temple of Serapis (at the north end of Egypt) and the Philae temple of Isis (at the south end), for example, were actively used by large numbers of worshippers right up until they were destroyed by imperial decree, and Egyptians tried to continue the popular Hapy-festivals. I don't have the information for non-Mediterranean Europe, but though I know many people were forced I suspect some converted voluntarily there too. Really, it's unlikely that an entire population will all be of one mind and all decide to convert or not to convert unanimously. I apologize that this is getting off-topic, but I must set the record strait.

The colloquial use of the word "myth" to mean urban myth or falsehood doesn't have any connection to mythology, which is how confusion can arise. It's like how "gay" means 1. homosexual, 2. happy, and 3. brightly colored. Atheists have no mythic/sacred stories, AFAIK, so yeah that couldn't be included. (Plus there were probably no atheists during the time periods oshron's using.) And every native religion of Europe, and that of Egypt, were also exterminated by persecution by the Christians in the Roman Empire and middle ages, except some east European ones that lasted until the Russian Communists exterminated them instead.By the way oshron, for the three monotheistic/Abrahamic civs are there other terms you can use to replace "minor god" and "major god" in the game (where the player selects them for their civilization, and when they're subsequently displayed)? Since for those three religions using "minor god" as the descriptor for angels, or "major god" for the Devil, and so forth doesn't make any sense (and referring to the Devil as a god should really be avoided), even though they have the same game function as other civs' gods. Could they be "major power" and "minor power" or something? Or major/minor force? Or major/minor patron?

Er... no. Myths are narratives told concerning sacred subjects. Every religion has some. Their status as literally true or not is irrelevant to whether or not they are mythic or sacred. Furthermore, Christians or whoever have no right to be any more offended than people of any other religion at the use of their sacred stories for entertainment, unless they're insisting that their religion is superior and everybody else's is false. This project is trying to treat all the religions with pretty much equal irreverence and/or respect, not playing favorites. Whether it's disrespectful to use sacred stories for entertainment is actually a worthwhile discussion. But no religion should get special treatment.

Actually I don't know if those words designate something different in English English, but in U.S. English a marsh has standing water and the dominant vegetation is grass. A swamp has standing water but there is significant tree cover. A salt marsh is in an estuary or coast such that the water is salty or semi-salty. A bog is different in vegetation, soil, and pH. The soil is acidic and thicker and has less fertility, leading to a different vegetation: mosses (especially peat moss), trees (especially conifers such as tamarack/larch and black spruce), and carnivorous plants, mainly pitcher plants and sundews. The soil contains of a lot of peat. The water table in a bog can also be closer to the land surface, while in a marsh I think it is higher off the ground. A bog can have both open areas and places with nearly full tree cover.

If it could be done with 90% accuracy for Etruscans and Sikels (using a Greek base?) then that would enable a Syracuse scenario as a tutorial.

That marsh is awesome, though without reeds and tall marsh grasses I would call it a bog.

Actually, for pure comedy playing the game with humanoid dinosaurs vs. bad-movie "cavemen" could be hilarious. I don't know what "primitive jurassic" technology would look like though... there was no technology in the Jurassic. I don't know how well it would work to just replace one real civilization with another real one, though, because to be accurate the units would actually have to change. I could see this, though for folks who want to play a bizarre fantasy version of the game with satyrs vs. wolf men, or dinosaurs vs. cave men.

Actually, the reign of Alexander is part of the Late Classic. The Hellenistic period is defined as beginning with his death and the subsequent break-up of his empire. It is an arbitrary point in time, but so are the points that begin and end all historical eras.

You're welcome! And uh well... what are "traits"? I know you had Set granting the Slavery tech and a Drought god power that attacks opponents' food production, and Re was going to have a "heat-stroke" god power that did something harmful to enemy soldiers. Set is also a war god, if that helps.

Oh, if you can find enough info from the Southeast groups to have all their military and myth unit info come from that area, then that would work fine! I'm just saying that if you have to use myth units from all over the entire continent, then that's a sign you don't have enough info to do the faction at all, because the result will just be a mishmash. The thing is there is no "generic" group anywhere. The similarities between ethnic groups from far apart regions of the continent just aren't large enough to make a generic construct that makes sense. And if not one of the myth units is from the Mississippian area, then that's really a sign you don't have enough information available. Here are the mythical creatures I know of from the Southeast (mostly copied and pasted from websites of unknown trustworthiness, so beware of that): Birdman (Mississippian) Half-human, half-bird figures depicted in Mississippian art, with human faces, long beaky noses, bird tails, and feathered wings on their backs or in place of arms. These images may represent a costume instead of a nonhuman creature. The meaning of the artwork is unknown. Giant Leech (Cherokee) It is red with white stripes, and the size of a house. (Ewwww.) Hatcukliba/Monster Lizard (Muskogee/Creek) a gigantic lizard (my info about this is obviously lacking) Horned Serpent (SE. N. America) “In ancient times, there lived some very large snakes that glittered nearly as bright as the sun. They had two horns on their heads, and they possessed a magic power of attraction. To see one of these snakes was always a bad omen.” Sint Holo (SE. N. America) “An invisible, great horned serpent, having spiritual and cultural significance among the Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw and adjacent tribes. This “snake” might reveal its presence to any male youth who had demonstrated a marked degree of wisdom or intelligence beyond his peers. Deep in a cave below the water, Sint Holo dwelled. He brought on heavy rains and could make a noise like thunder but could not make thunder, like the Thunderer spirit, its enemy. Only to those who showed they were wiser than the others, would he show himself and offer his old wisdom.” Uktena (Cherokee) “Those who know say that the Uktena is a great snake, as large around as a tree trunk, with horns on its head, and a bright, blazing crest like a diamond upon its forehead, and scales glittering like sparks of fire. It has rings or spots of color along its whole length, and can not be wounded except by shooting in the seventh spot from the head, because under this spot are its heart and its life.” There are some stories of people encountering a (or the?) Horned Serpent, and how the encounter came about. They are probably worth reading if you want to know about myths from this area. Hvcko Capko (Seminole) as described in the book Oklahoma Seminoles: “It resembles a horse, with a horse’s tail, but has a head more like that of a wolf, and enormous long ears. It is extremely ugly, and like Tall Man [a Sasquatch-like being] it smells like stagnant muddy water. Willie commented that the creatures frequent rocky areas, where they are often observed watching people as they pass.” Stvkwvnaya (Seminole) a lake serpent 20 feet long, with four fins and a single horn on its head, which is an aphrodesiac Piasa Bird (Illini, Miami) A huge monster once painted on a cliff in Illinois. “While Skirting some rocks, which by Their height and length inspired awe, We saw upon one of them two painted monsters which at first made Us afraid, and upon Which the boldest savages dare not Long rest their eyes. They are as large As a calf; they have Horns on their heads Like those of a deer, a horrible look, red eyes, a beard Like a tiger's, a face somewhat like a man's, a body Covered with scales, and so Long A tail that it winds all around the Body, passing above the head and going back between the legs, ending in a Fish's tail. Green, red, and black are the three Colors composing the Picture..” Later, it was described as a winged monster that terrorized and ate humans until a heroic chief lured it into the range of archers with poisoned arrows. Ustu’tli (Cherokee) “There was once a great serpent called the Ustu’tli that made its haunt upon Cohutta mountain. It was called the Ustu’tli or “foot” snake, because it did not glide like other snakes, but had feet at each end of its body. The Ustu’tli moved by strides or jerks, like a great measuring worm. Its feet were three-cornered and flat and could hold on to the ground like suckers. It had no legs, but would raise itself up on its hind feet, with its snaky head waving high in the air until it found a good place to take a fresh hold; then it would bend down and grip its front feet to the ground while it drew its body up from behind. It could cross rivers and deep ravines by throwing its head across and getting a grip with its front feet and then swinging its body over.” The Uw`tsun’ta was another serpent of the same kind. Uksu’hi (Cherokee) a giant man-eating boa constrictor-like snake (another I have little info on) Star-Creature (Cherokee) When stars come down from the sky and visit the Earth, they look like round, fuzzy or downy creatures with small heads. Wind in their fur/feathers creates sparks, but they only actually produce light at night. Tla’nuwa (Cherokee) a giant hawk (I also have not enough info about this one) Totki fu/Fire Dog (Seminole) Small with pointed ears, they are always seen or encountered in mated pairs traversing North and South paths, never easterly-westerly. They are seen most frequently at the headwaters of streams and creeks. (Presumably this is a canine sort of animal but why it is a Fire Dog I don't know. Googling it only brings up hardware supplies.) Lû’ Dja Låko/Monster Bull Turtle/Big Terrapin (Muskogee/Creek) A huge turtle, large enough for several men to stand on its back. However, anybody who climbs on its back is stuck to it permanently, and it will immediately climb into a lake or the sea and drown them. Underground Panthers (Cherokee) These are human-like talking panthers [cougars/pumas/mountain lions] that live underground. As with [European] fairies, a human who stays with them may think he is gone only hours but will find he has been gone several days. A human who stays with them will eventually become one, and will die if he returns to live with humans. Underwater Panther/Oi-Katca (N. America) “Among many Native American tribes, these are evil gods of water. At the same time they are a source of great wisdom and healing power, particularly with herbs.” Misipisiwak or ‘Underwater Panther’ which has horns, is a game guardian (master of animals), and in the flood myth prevents the extermination of game. “The Underwater Panther was an amalgam of features from many animals: the horns of deer or bison; snake scales; bird feathers; the body and tail of a mountain lion; and parts from other animals as well, depending on the particular myth. Mishipizheu were said to live in the deepest parts of lakes and rivers. Some traditions believed the underwater panthers to be helpful, protective creatures, but more often they were viewed as malevolent beasts that brought death and misfortune.” I don't know if Mishipizheu is a Southeastern name, but I know Oi-Katca is. Winged Serpent (Mississippian) Bird-winged rattlesnakes, some with mammalian heads and others with horns or antlers on a snake head, depicted in art (especially pottery). Most are striped or spotted. They may be related to the Horned Serpents or Piasa, but what the art means is unknown. I know thunderbirds exist in Northwest Coast and Dakota stories, and in stories of one California ethnic group, but I don't know about Southeast thunderbirds. Wendigo is a northern story, probably either Iroquois or Algonquin. There may be a nation/tribe that has stories about both Wendigo and Thunderbird, but not in the Southeast. Some sources that would be useful for Southeastern stories: http://books.google.com/books?id=bwbBQ8ojz...epage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=OENl21sHq...epage&q&f=false http://www.teacheroz.com/myth-legend.htm

Ah, oops, I thought you were using the word for the wampum trade shells from North America to refer to trade. If that is also the Quechua/Inca word for boat then it must just be a coincidence. My error. Sorry! Personally I don't think you should go for factions that require giving gods and myth units from multiple cultures across an entire continent -- it's true the Mississippian culture had Cahokia which was either a city or nearly one, but since you are using non-city neolithic people for your "cro-magnon" faction I really think that any mostly sedentary Native American group would work for North America, and that a faction specific to the Pueblo cultural grouping or Pacific Northwest area, with enough info to give them material only from a group of related cultures, would work out better. I don't mean to get you down -- I think the Mississippian area is also a particularly hard one to find material for, considering that the culture itself collapsed from new diseases before extensive European contact and not a lot seems to be known about who even lived there at the time of European contact. From your list, most of what I recognize is from outside that area. EDIT: I'm trying to find out which nations/"tribes" would be best to look at for info for a Mississippian-based faction. On this National Geographic language map, the builders of Cahokia would be speakers of the Illinois language. Other (better-known) groups you could look to for words, myth units, and gods are Cherokee, Choctaw, Creek/Muskogee, and Chickasaw. Other possibilities are Natchez, Yuchi, Ofo, Michigamea, Quapaw, Tunica, Tawasa, Alabama, Koasati, and Caddo, but I don't know anything about them or how much info is available. All these lived outside of the Cahokia area but were in the broader mound-building region, so you can just define "Mississippian" to include all the (probable/possible) mound-builders. I wish I knew good sources I could recommend for you, or that I knew enough to help directly, but Native North America isn't a continent I know much about. I did find a pretty awesome source for Egyptian military matters, though, if you're interested: http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/timeli...ex.html#society It has a lot of info and cites its sources, though I don't have any knowledge how good the writer's scholarship is. But if you need any Egyptian military info, it might be useful.

Looks like a good start. For the spelling of Inca words, you will eventually need to make the spelling more consistent. Right now there are at least two different spelling/orthography methods among the words you have. Try to get all your Inca words from the same dictionary (and if one single dictionary has that much spelling variation, it probably is a pretty bad one). Also, Wampum is something from North America and has nothing to do with the Inca. They had trading ships, but they weren't called that.

Yeah, not only was Stonehenge built long before any people who could possibly be called "Celtic" existed, but it was one-of-a-kind. Other stone circles from the (pre-Celtic) Megalithic period were not hewn and had no lintels or trilithons. Most circular monuments from that time were earth and/or wood. What Vingauld links looks like a much better choice. If something different cannot be found for the British sub-group, I would prefer to give them something very similar to the Gaul sub-group, instead of giving them something from the much older Megalithic period. That said, I would love eye-candy for Stonehenge, a wooden henge/circle, an earth-bank henge, a regular stone circle, a dolmen, a menhir, etc.

Hah, see if you re-balanced the units to make the Celts not-weak, and redid most of their buildings, then that justifies a Celtic themed name, right? Although I still really want to see Clio in there. But maybe letter K can be Klio instead.

Somebody once pointed out that it would look silly and unrealistic for buildings to be on fire indefinitely without actually burning down. I was thinking that the props showing damage would be broken parts, such as covering the door with a very thin prop that looks like a broken door, or whatever.

They actually asked for it, somewhere. I think in the Alpha II announcement.

Yeah, good point. The "Celts" should get an alpha named for them, too.

That photo is funny. I actually like Citadel or Clio more. I also think that the first alpha to include a third playable faction should use a word relating to them, but I have no clue when that will happen. Though if every alpha is going to include some special editor-only unit or object relating to its name, then I definitely like Cerberus.

I just graduated from college (December 2009) and am now utterly broke and fairly unhappy. I have spent a year searching for any kind of job at all, and at this point I feel like there's not even any point in looking anymore. I'm a bit worried that if I spend too much time looking for jobs (and failing) that I'll end up depressed. I moved back in with my mother because I can't afford my own place. But I should be very grateful that my parents are still willing and able to support me.

Sweet screenies, Pureon.

I've also read that the Dorian invasion isn't considered a certain thing anymore. But it's not my area of expertise. I found a website with some info about the Egyptian military: http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/timeli...ndex.html#state and about ships (scroll down a bit): http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/timeli...ex.html#economy Like the Age of Bronze site for Aegean archaeology, this isn't by a scholar but hopefully a person who is using scholarly sources (I haven't taken the time to see what they cite). EDIT/Update: Reshafim's sources are all over the place. Some pages have a scholarly-looking bibliography, some pages cite no sources at all. The timeline page is to be avoided.

What about minor civs, such as Egyptians or Etruscans, that you can ally with or conquer? Not important enough for full civs, but not just limited to small villages and 5 units either. I any case, I don't want to see "generic barbarians." This is supposed to be historically based, so I hope the game continues to use only real historical human groups, and depict them with some accuracy. "Generic barbarians" would not feel like real people from the ancient world, they'd feel like random transplants from some D&D universe.