Aldandil

AFAIK Babylon should be where Susa is now, and Susa should be off the east edge. But basically, this map looks very cool. Nice job.

I think for now Memy-khery-djenehwif or Memy-khery-dematwif can work for the winged giraffe, or use English. When I have the chance to check out Loprieno's book, I can try to figure out better grammar for the name. Also there could be real Egyptologists or linguists that could help you. The egyptian language list (look at http://www.rostau.org.uk/aegyptian-l/index.html) probably has people who could help. I don't know how to say Apep-Spawn, but Apep is Aapep. I suppose Sa-Aapep is "son of Apep," but I think naming it in English would actually be better since what it is probably won't be immediately apparent from it's appearance and abilities. For Blood, if you are considering Hathor I think she's the best choice. The same story was sometimes told about her instead of Sakhmet.

Hm, tigers are already in the trac as an intended animal, but I forgot cheetahs. Should I add peacocks and pheasants? Guinea fowl would be good too.

Irrigation, Plow, Written Language, and Salinization make good sense. I'm not sure about Urban Revolution, maybe call it Urban Planning instead? That would be the difference between haphazardly constructed cities and those that are built purposely to a plan that improves how well neighborhoods and community services can be arranged. (I'm not explaining this well, but do you follow?) Metallurgy probably needs a different name, since by itself it looks to me like it's just a name for being able to make metals. Maybe it could be named Advanced Metallurgy or Expert Metallurgy? Those are some interesting ideas. Blood would be a very flavorful choice for Sakhmet. Technically in the story about her, the land was flooded by beer and it was Re's doing, to get her drunk so she'd stop massacering humans, but she hoped it was a flood of blood, which is why she drank it.

Hm, does Taoism include a lot of meditation? I should know this but I don't.

I don't understand, why would they do that? Are you thinking of Buddhism?

OK, the Aztecs and Norse are good ideas, but how shall they be differentiated? Historically, the Aztec soldiers tried to take prisoners instead of killing people on the battlefield, and so did the people they fought against. This was a strategic disaster when they fought against the Spanish who merely wanted to kill them at once. How can it be implemented in an RTS? Generating favor by taking prisoners is exactly what the Aztecs should do, but practically speaking they need to either sacrifice victims on the spot (which would be the same as killing them by other means) or they need to automatically take prisoner any unit they would otherwise kill, add the prisoner to the tally of "spoils" generated by sacking (which will be a regular feature of 0 A.D. IIRC) and then have the prisoners handwavingly transported to the temples along with the spoils. Such abstractions are to be expected in an RTS, though it will be necessary to program it in specifically so the corpses disappear and aren't reanimation targets (for Einherjar, Akhu/Mummies, and the like) or fodder for carrion-eating units (if Godstorm has any). Then Aztec favor could be generated by some equation that uses two variables: number of enemy units taken prisoner (which should be almost all enemy units "killed" in battle) and number of Aztec temples. Realistically, although the Aztecs sacrificed shockingly huge numbers of human prisoners, they also shed their own blood with needles and cactus spines and then burned the resulting bloodstained bits of paper. Is there any way to include this autosacrifice, or is that too much detail for an RTS? The Norse, by contrast, could generate favor by fielding units into battle, whether or not the units kill any enemies or even survive the battle, and without needing temples. Then again I've heard that the Danish bog mummies are the remains of human sacrifices, too... Building monuments and offering sacrifices seem like the major ways that some Mediterranean civilizations sought the favor of their gods. What precisely was offered to deities differed, but I think at the level of RTS abstractions it would boil down to resources, whether produced by the player or taken as spoils. Praying at those monuments and attending religious services doesn't seem to have been a major part of Greek, Roman, or Egyptian religion (but I'm not an expert), although there were festivals which could involve (for example) singing, dancing, athletics, and theatre (Greek) or processions and parades (all three). Priests also enacted rituals at temples, for example in Egyptian religion, for the benefit of the deities rather than congregations of observers, though Egyptian religion also had public festivals. Then of course there were the Greek and later Roman mysteries, in which congregations did who knows what behind closed doors. In the Greek case this might mean that instead of getting around a temple and praying, the Greek units generate favor by singing, dancing, having an athletic contest ("praying" with different graphics and sounds), by using their Theatron, or by sacrificing resources (animals, vegetable produce, armor and weapons captured in war, etc.). I don't think Christian and Muslim units should get favor just by existing. They should need to go to church services, participate in sacraments, and/or pray at churches/mosques. And all religions welcomed and/or demanded financial contributions -- from the government (the mainstay of theocratic religions until the modern secular states arose, and the funding behind all those mega-temples and monumental cathedrals) and from individuals (taxes, fees, tithes, offerings, donations, eminent domain, etc.). In game terms, the Muslim pillar of charity to the poor would be a similar effect, except perhaps without the added benefit of helping fund new religious buildings. Unfortunately, it might not be possible to give each civilization unique methods, and that's especially true the more civs you have.

Hm, aren't markets and merchants too essential to gameplay to remove the mundane ones from earlier phases? They could be really weak and slow by comparison to other civs' merchants, of course: no beasts of burden meant they were slower and had less room for cargo, at least when travelling on land.

I didn't know those were cypress, I thought they were Lombardy poplar.

I don't know whether or not the Aztecs used mercenaries in their armies, somebody would need to research it. But if they did use mercenaries, they weren't necessarily (or even likely to be) Maya. The Maya (forming several ethnic groups) and imperial Aztecs (calling themselves the Mexica) are the famous ethnicities of Mexico (at least among English-speakers, I guess), but there are many other ethnic groups (forming many political nations) who still existed in the highlands and surrounding regions at the same time as the Aztec/Mexica: Acolhua (allies of the Aztec Empire), Tepaneca (allies and former overlords of the Aztec Empire), the Tarascan Empire (enemy of the Aztec Empire), Tlaxcalans (enemies of the Aztec Empire), Olmeca-Xicalanca (not the same as the earlier Olmecs), Chalca, Cuitlahuaca, Huasteca, Huexotzinca, Malinalca, Matlazinca, Mixteca, Otomi, Teochichimeca, Teotenangans, Tetelans, Tlahuica, Toltecs, Totonaca, Xochimilca, Zapoteca, northern "barbarians," etc. If I read right, tribute paid to the Aztec by conquered regions included men who had to serve the imperial military. Which ethnic groups had to provide these, and whether they were organized into what would be the same units (with the same equipment and fighting techniques) or used their native equipment, I don't know. The conquered Tetela apparently received what you could call "military aid" against the Tlaxcalans, but so far I don't see any mention of actual mercenaries. Here's an interesting tidbit: the pochteca merchants of the Aztec empire also served the emperor as scouts, diplomats, spies, and even as soldiers in search of new places to conquer, in addition to their economic role as traders.

It's up to you, I have no opinion. This is your project, I'm just following along and/or lending a hand.

I had made some suggestions for various traits of the Egyptian gods, some pages back I guess. There's not an adjective for royal coming up, but there are two that might work for you: Shepses "noble, august, well - esteemed, rich" Shepsy or Shepesy "noble, august (of gods), splendid (of buildings), valuable (of plants, minerals), costly" So that would be Abu-shepses or Abu-shepsy or Abu-shepesy in my lame attempt at Old Kingdom grammar.

You're welcome. Since Thnau has theta in it, that implies it was borrowed from some Greek word... don't know which, since Greek doesn't have Thn (unless the Coptic word is really Nau and Th is the article, the lexicon has some mistakes like that). Either way I do think Shotjb Khotjb would be the safer choice for the Market. Edit: Oh ack, that should be Khotjb, not shotjb. My mistake! That unfortunately looks equally weird. Maybe both words are Bohairic, that dialect uses Theta and Khi. And this time, I saved a (modified to be easily useable) copy of that key. I still see nothing that can work for the Flagbearer, though.

Yes, the website had two forms of the lexicon. And although a few of the letters do make sense, several that look like regular letters (x, h, and c, for example) can't be trusted. Then there's the numbers and q and... argh. I should have just saved and kept a copy of that key while I had the chance, but I didn't know I would need it again. Maybe there's an archive of the old remenkimi site with the key on it... So, camels and elephants. Elephant is Abu, camel is ... not on Nouvelle. So that leaves you with the useless "Coptic" "qamoul" for camel... better just call them Camel and Market for now. Though "qamoul" might, might be Khamul. I can't be sure of that, though. It could also be Thamul or who knows what. I think a, m, l, e, and ou>u are reliable letters, but I can't remember. EDIT: Ah! Way Back Machine to the rescue! The old key is here: http://web.archive.org/web/20050317230435/...enkimi/KTS.html. Using it is a huge pain, it requires cross-checking with the alphabet at http://www.omniglot.com/writing/coptic.htm. I'm getting to work on it now. EDIT2: Victory! OK, here it is: market = Khotjb or Thnau camel = Khamul For reference, here's a more usable key: a = alpha = a aa = a` b = bêta = b c = sêmma = z after nnê, s elsewhere d = dalda = d e = ei = e ee = e` ei = i when used as a vowel, y when used as a consonant f = fai = ph or f g = tjantjia = usually tj h = hori = h i = yôta = i when used as a vowel, y when used as a consonant ii = i` j = gamma = g k = kappa = g after nnê, usually k elsewhere l = lalda = l m = mê = m n = nnê = n o = u/o = o oo = o` ou = u when used as a vowel, w when used as a consonant ouou = u` p = pi = p q = khai = kh r = rô = r s = kjima = kj t = tau = d after nnê, usually t elsewhere u = he/ue = u (only after alpha, ei, or u/o) w = ô/aw = ô ww = ô` x = khi = kh y = psi = ps z = zêta = z 0 = thêta = th 2 = shai = sh 3 = êta = ê 33 = ê` 4 = fai = f 5 = ti = ti or di 6 = soo = number 6, apparently 7 = ksi = ks (x) ` = jinkim = a syllable separator, apparently + = not even in the key!

Yes, that may be the solution. Unfortunately, finding decent Coptic dictionaries online... ugh. I don't know how to do that. I'm trying but so far I only get garbage instead of real words. If you find one you have to either download their font or find some kind of key for their symbol mapping. Which were you using before? It might have a key or font somewhere (and apparently every Coptic font is incompatible with every other Coptic font). There was one at http://www.coptic.org/language/EnglishCoptic.html that did, it was a huge pain to use, but it worked. Unfortunately their key and font downloader were apparently removed, rendering the entire site useless! (Just for my own reference in case a key is found, the "Coptic" gobbledygook for market are "xosb" and "0nau." The fonts I downloaded don't do a thing for this. ) Hut-NetjeruThe other two major gods are Osiris and Set, right? Assault/seige ladders seems like the best of those three options, I guess. The military questions are really far out of my area of knowledge, though. Have you considered turning one of the chariot units into a super unit? They seem more like they would be professional soldiers than citizen-soldiers to me.

OK, now I get it. A temple to all the gods would be Hut-Netjeru, though I don't know whether or not they ever existed historically. For a Monument or Temple to the Pharaoh, Shepes-Nesu-Bity or Hut-aat-Nesu-Bity seem like the best options. Since Ntere is Coptic and Menu is Ancient Egyptian, they can't go together in a phrase. Yes, that's a good idea. I couldn't find translations for sling, slinger, or stone-thrower, but I did find one for javelin. So the Slinger could be called "skirmisher" (Mega) and the Javelineer (if any) could be called "javelin-soldier" (Wau-Neseyut). I unfortunately don't know much about the New Kingdom (or any period) Egyptian military, so I can't advise you on which is more realistic if you only want to have one of the two.A real linguist may also be able to provide more help, if there's anyone around who studies Egyptology. That Nouvelle dictionary doesn't necessarily have every known Egyptian word, so there's still hope for the Market and so forth.

You're welcome. Hm, yeah in that case Menu-aa seems like a generic enough translation for Great Monument. That could leave either Menu or one of the words for "statue" for the smallest type of monument. For the others, I really need the entire phrase that should be translated. Temple of the Gods and Temple of the King? Or Temple of a God?

Its best not to translate word-for-word individual phrases or words and then trying to combine them, the result will only be as good as Babelfish, and if you've ever used that to translate a non-English website so you can read it, you know how awkward that is. Words in different languages don't exactly correspond to each other one-for-one. It is necessary (and will give far more accurate results) to provide whole phrases to be translated, or even better to just describe each unit, building, etc. that needs a name. Pharaoh = Per-aa, which literally means "great house" and is apparently one of a king's standard titles. There is also a word for king: Nesu-Bity. Vizier = Taty Governor = Heqa-hut (district governor) or Hateya (nomarch) Monument: Shesep = statue, Khenty = statue, Menu is given as the translation of "monument" but without details. to the Pharaoh and to the Gods: I can't properly translate these without more context. The phrase or concept that you need a word for, that I can try to translate. Slave = Nedjet Swordsman: Neken and Meshu are both words that mean sword, but I would be happier if I knew enough grammar to tell you "sword-soldier" or "sword-man." At some point (I have no clue when) I'll be checking out Loprieno's book Ancient Egyptian: a linguistic introduction, and can then look up how New Kingdom grammar is put together, and maybe try to provide some better words/translations for you, especially for the phrases. Offhand I don't know how to do New Kingdom grammar, but in my lame attempt at Old Kingdom grammar, "sword-soldier" can be Wau-Neken or Wau-Meshu. Axeman: There are two words that mean axe, Iqehu and Khepesh (which also means scimitar). Menfat is a word translated as "trained soldiers, assault troops, infantry, soldiery" while Wau means soldier. It seems that you could just use Wau for the swordsman and Menfat for the axeman (not the greatest but the word is technically gramatically written as a singular noun). You don't seem to have an infantry spear. The other option, at least for now, is to say Wau-Iqehu or Wau-Khepesh for "axe-soldier." Archer: Iry-Pedjet and Pedjety both mean bowman. I do not know which of these is more correct for the grammar of the New Kingdom, but either should do for now. Skirmisher/Javelin-thrower/Spear-thrower/Javelinist/Javelineer: Mega would work, since it apparently means skirmisher. Slinger/Stone-thrower: I don't see a word for this, sorry. Magician = Hekay. Sau also shows up in the dictionary for "magician," but I like Hekay better since I know Heka often gets translated as "magic." Standard Bearer/Flag-bearer/Signaler: Again, no word is coming up. Spear Chariot/Melee Chariot/Chariot: Two words for "chariot" show up (Wereryet and Merkebet), plus Seneny = chariot-soldier. Chariot Archer: This one will be trickier and I don't have a good answer right now. At least for now Wereryet-Pedjety or Merkebet-Pedjety could work. Woman = Hemet or Set-hemet Merchant/Trader = Suty Healer = Sunu, and unfortunately the same letters also spell the word for "tower." This is the problem with a language that is wrttn wtht n vwls! Ram/Siege Tower: There is no direct translation but I have an idea of what to do.. again, it'll require checking out that Loprieno book. I'll need to construct a male present participle of one of the verbs Gua-r or Hemes-her, which would then mean "he that beseiges." Barge: Kebnet is a seagoing ship, and may be your best bet for "merchant ship" since I'm not finding that. If you only envision them using the rivers, then there are other options that aren't specifically for sea ships: Depet, Sehret or Sehert, and Khementyu are all words that mean "ship." Warship = Ahat Fishing Ship/Fishing Boat: I haven't found any word for this or even for "fishing." There are words that just mean "boat" ... Mekha, Mek, Sehyet. Town/City/Citadel/Civic Center: Iuyet seems the best translation for "civic center" while there are two words that can mean "town": Nyut, Demej House = Aryet, Khenu, or At, Farm/Farmstead: Ahet is a field of arable land or farmland (apparently sekhet is more generical and not automatically farmland?) Pen/Enclosure/Corral: Well, Hermu is specifically for poultry, and while "enclosure" brings up Shenu and Sebty, I don't know what sort of "enclosure" those are. Mill/Storehouse/Cellar: Several words mean "storehouse": Shenat, Shenau (also a "labor establishment," whatever that is), Khetem (also meaning "fort"), Mekher, and Wedja ... pick one, I guess. Tower = Sunu, which unfortunately clashes with the one for "healer" above. My current solution is to make it Sunu-Rudjety, which is my attempt to say "tower of hard stone" although quite possibly grammatically incorrect. Gate/Doorway = Arerut seems like the best choice, or just use Rut. Wall: Ineb is a wall, but apparently Wemetet is a "thick wall," and Djery is an "enclosing wall," if either of those appeal to you more. Dock/Port/Harbor = Menyut or Meneyut Market: Unfortunately, I haven't found any word that would work for this. Barracks/Camp/Military Center: The closest I can find is Tjaret, meaning a "cabin" or "established camp." Words that merely translate as "camp" are Ihu and Aany. Temple and Great Temple/Temple of the Gods: Hut-Netjer is a temple of a god. Re-per and Per-Nesu also mean temple. Fortress/Stronghold/Palace/Fort = Iteh or Menenu or Sefekhy Great Monument: This is a hard one. Can you describe more what you have in mind? Is this an especially large temple, or a pyramid, or a giant sphinx? Is it dedicated to a god, all the gods, or a pharaoh? There are words for tomb-chapels that I didn't list under Temple, that could work for a pharaoh-specific temple. Winged Giraffe: Memy = "giraffe" and Djenehwy and Dematwy both mean "two wings," but how to combine those together is trickier. It's not as simple as putting them together with some word for "with." This is a point at which I need Loprieno. Clay Man/Mud Man/Reme pa-Yar = Remetj-Iteru, using my aforementioned lame attempt at Old Kingdom grammer. For a more literal "clay-may" you could try Remetj-Seyen or Remetj-Penes, but since in the Late Period they were called River-Men I would use Remetj-Iteru. Sphinx = Shespu or Shesepu (sphinx is a Greek word) Giant Scarab = Kheperer-aa (scarab again is not Egyptian, don't know the language that comes from) Serpent of the Duat = Nau-Duaty Crocodile-ram: Since I don't know what these things were actually called (if they had a name) one of these should work: Ba-Depy, Ba-Kapu, Ba-Meseh. Mummy: Sah is a mummified person but for a fantastic mummy that gets up and walks around, I think Akh is much more appropriate. And if you need Uraeus, there are several words to choose from: Iaret, Akhet, Tepet, Seby (inexplicably a masculine word, while uraei are always female AFAIK), and Watet. The dictionary I'm using is at http://www.cliohist.net/hiero/index.htm When you type in an English word, every Egyptian word with that English term somewhere in its definition will show up. So "crew (of ship), company (of soldiers), gang (of workmen)" comes up when you search for "ship." You get a bunch of words on the left-hand side, and if you click on any word a definition will come up on the right-hand side. Mostly the hieroglyphs that accompany each Egyptian word just look like squares on my computer, but occasionally one of them is displayed as some gobbledygook such as "Z4aZ4aZ4aZ4a" or "T30a," so watch out for that sort of thing. The key to the transliteration method is here: http://www.rostau.org.uk/aegyptian-l/learn...hierointro.html although with incomplete notes on transcribing it into something that at least looks pronounceable.

If those names come from the same source, they're undoubtably not Coptic. Any Coptic source that gives you words with the letter q is most likely using a font you don't have. I.e., when you see q, you're supposed to see some Coptic letter instead. (With most languages those unpronouceable 3- and 4-consonant clusters would be another clue the words aren't real, but... Coptic is full of crazy consonant clusters anyway.) There are Ancient Egyptian dictionaries, the trouble is they are not books that a typical public library is likely to have. You'd need to ask if there are any linguists on the boards who could help. Another issue: when translating, you can't always just type in one word and expect one word to translate it exactly. For example, the word ram: if you just look for the translation of ram, you are more likely to be given the word for the animal than for a battering ram. Same with wonder (a noun but also an emotion). EDIT: Oh wait! I know a free Ancient Egyptian dictionary online. I can try to get translations. Do you have a list of all the units and buildings and town/settlement types you need names for? I can try to find names for these, though I can't do all of them I can get you some words.

I'll play whichever civ is first given a tutorial. I'm too inexperienced to play a real multiplayer game against real people.

That sounds nice. I agree that camelry doesn't seem right for the Egyptians. The basic monument could be a divine statue or small sphinx, or even an obelisk (I would not use mini pyramids). An important word about names: If I were you I would use Ancient Egyptian wherever possible. Unfortunately, I can tell that you apparently found the Coptic words on a website that uses a font that you don't have, resulting in ASCII-esque nonsense words that aren't actually Coptic. There might be a way to find out which Coptic letters the website is trying to display, but then you would have to go to yet another website to find out how each Coptic letter is thought to have been pronounced and how to transliterate it into readable Latin script... trust me, it's a huge pain and hardly worth it. You'll be far better off to just ask the history and/or language buffs to help you find a decent Ancient Egyptian dictionary (I'd say avoid Budge, but he's better than the Coptic source you're using now.) and/or help you with translations. Just, whatever you do, don't use those names you have now. They're unfortunately not Coptic. For example, the Coptic for "gods" is Ntair (pronounced Ndayr), Ntere (pronounced Nde`rə), and Nter (pronounced Ndêr). Xoout isn't even close. Likewise, the Ancient Egyptian for wall was yneb, which couldn't have become sobt in Coptic. Ancient Egyptian for field is sekhet, or sôshe in Coptic (not koie), etc. I am sorry that you went to the trouble to do that research and the website was so unhelpful, but it's the truth.

Even in the Early Cycladic there were two-storey houses.

I think they were also tenements in the English sense, too.

Should I add the list of Eye-candy from the trac/wiki, for artists who don't read it? Or have all of those already been made?

I don't know whether this is already planned, but can units that are not tasked to attack make an alarm sound when they first "see" enemy units? What I mean is this: say a bunch of Gaullish infantry and women are gathering food or mining or whatever, and some Greek soldiers show up. (Assuming the Greek and Celtic players aren't allied.) One Gaul (the nearest to the Greeks) yells something ("Invaders!" or whatever) when the Greeks are within LoS. The other Gaulish units within "earshot" (whatever distance that is) of the one that yelled don't also make an alarm noise. This thought came to me while I watched the Alpha demo and other YouTube videos: when the units from one Greek settlement come close to the other settlement, the defending soldiers don't make a noise first, they just start throwing javelins. I think an alarm noise would be a neat and realistic addition.