Aldandil

Chinampas are a great idea! Do you know if it would theoretically be possible to program it so that, instead of having to touch land, it can be anywhere in the lake but has to be fresh water and can't be a river? Mercenaries should have a different appearance (would player color be enough?) so they can't be confused with the units of the faction they relate to. I don't like this, you're treading into inaccurate stereotype territory and somebody is bound to accuse you of being insensitive, prejudiced, offensive, or unfair, regardless of your intent. I'd just totally avoid this. Luckily Iblis isn't quite the same as the Christian Lucifer, despite the similarities. For one thing, I think he's supposed to be a djinni instead of a fallen angel. But there should be lots of angels, hopefully enough for two factions... I dunno. You could go with the pre-Muslim Ghana Empire if it becomes a problem. When I suggested a West African faction the "pantheon" overlap with Christians didn't occur to me.

Ah, my mistake.

But Set is the god of chaos and desert storms... Surely, there's something more dramatic to give him for a god power, like a terrific chaos storm that mucks up your enemies but leaves your own units unscathed (since his powers were not harmful to Re'). I'm not sure what Apep could do, then, except having a larger, more chaotic, and more damaging chaos flood. Maybe Set could cause droughts that harm enemy agriculture instead. Since all or nearly all ancient cultures used slavery, I prefer the idea of making slavery something that every civilization can use starting at the Town phase, but giving some of them special things they can do, like turn slaves into weak infantry (for Greeks and Persians) or using them in sacrifices (for Aztecs). There are probably some civilizations in which slaves frequently earned their freedom and became citizens, so some factions could have the ability for slaves to "level up" to citizen-soldiers with experience.

I don't know a ton about the various empires in West Africa. I think the Ghana Empire was the first and the Mali Empire was the last. The Ghana Empire was pre-Muslim (I don't know if their religion had a name, although ancestor worship is probably a misnomer), while Mali was Muslim. Actually, combining Islam with the indigenous myths would provide a larger basis for myth units. As for the African cryptids, they come from all over Africa, so I wouldn't expect more than one or two to actually be from Ghana, Songhay, or Mali. I know that Batamzinga, Olitiau, Kongamato, Sasabonsam, and Kerit are not from those cultures. The Polynesians are closely related cultures and, since they separated from each other only recently (historically speaking), are pretty similar in several ways, such as myth and religion (I don't know about military matters). It's more akin to lumping Britons and Gauls together, really. They had certain differences and didn't think of themselves as the same ethnic group, so if possible it would be nice to divide Polynesians into sub-factions like the Britons and Gauls in 0 A.D., but lumping them together isn't without some basis in reality. That's a great idea. Hopefully there are enough super units to go around. You'll have more options if you allow super units to be mythological as well. Slavery wasn't just common in ancient times, it was pretty much ubiquitous. I'd guess that even the Aztecs, who preferred to sacrifice people rather than enslaving them or killing them in battle, probably had some form of slavery (but I don't know). I think that only completely nomadic people would entirely lack slavery, so perhaps make it a "technology" of the Town phase -- that should allow you to avoid giving it to Cro-Magnons during their Paleolithic phase.Slavery is perhaps a subject that could make players unhappy, but if the game already is about war and includes things like human sacrifice, at this point you're just being true to history. Morally, I find it difficult to consider war any "better" than slavery. After all, you don't have to glorify slavery. And if you prefer, you can engage in some historical inaccuracy and make it impossible (or just harder) to use slaves if you focus on the "good" Major God of your faction. Slaves could be obtained from "killing" enemy units, including support units, but there should be some units that can't be enslaved. For example, animal units can't really be enslaved. You can capture them, and usually you make them obey you, but capturing them in battle when somebody is riding them is pretty impractical, and they don't do the same things as human slaves. Some myth units should probably also be impossible to enslave, if only because their abilities as slaves (and the graphics) would be totally different from human slaves and it would get quite complicated (and visually too confusing) to make separate slave versions of every other myth unit. I'm thinking centaurs and sea serpents, for example. IMO slaves should be basic economic units for the most part: they can be used for labor, but not healing. Some civilizations (for example, the Spartans and Persians of 0 A.D.) used slaves for military units, but practically speaking they still need some training no matter where you got them, unless they were citizen-soldiers and you just want basic cannon fodder, so slaves shouldn't be instant-infantry or instant-Scythian archers. For one thing, I imagine it might be hard to balance that (but you know more about RTS games than I do!) It could possibly exist as a military advantage for a few individual factions (i.e. Persia, if you use them), while Aztecs might find it most efficient to sacrifice slaves to literally, directly increase their gods' powers. Oh, and for added complexity, you could try to figure out how to make slave revolts a possibility if they outnumber free units.

If you were going to add another faction, I'd far rather see the Mali Empire, the Ghana Empire, or the Songhay Empire. Africa needs more love. So do the Inca, too. And I'm against lumping two or three separate, unrelated ethnic groups together. Again, it just makes the game look ignorant and possibly prejudiced, when you draw fine separations between, say, the Greeks and Romans, but lump non-Western cultures together. It makes it look like you consider them identical or interchangeable. I don't like the names, either. "Barbarian" is basically a derogatory word that's often been code for "non-Western." "Mongoloid" is either used as an obsolete racial classification from the 19th century or so, or else it's used as a derogatory word for people with Down's Syndrome. Mongols and Huns weren't Germanic either in culture or language, and you've already got the Norse covered.

Yeah, I was thinking of a boat teleporting to the other side of the bridge, so that the watercourse is not "dammed."

I think by humble Darthturtle meant "as old as the 0AD project," or perhaps "not expensive or state-of-the-art," not "small." A netbook is a fairly new computer, yes? I mean, you guys started this years ago, so unless you've increased the system requirements as you went along, it should still work on somewhat older computers and graphics cards, right? I'm going to be terribly sad if I never have a chance to play 0AD or Last Alliance because of my graphics card.

No, not in your picture, in the design document that lists all the plant objects they want available at "release." Cacti are listed as though a European plant, but they're not and in the time periods being used, they wouldn't be growing in Europe, North Africa, or West Asia. Although that huge pink elephant in your picture is kinda strange.

Holy giant picture, Batman! It turns the page crazy! It is a pretty picture, though. The ground textures you guys have made are excellent. I agree that fallen leaves, plus underbrush, would make it look more realistic, but it still looks very good the way it is now. And in densely settled areas that have been farmed for generations, I imagine a mixture of forests, fields, and tree clumps that would range from completely wild to completely cultivated. But speaking of the flora in the design document, cacti are not native to the Old World, so there shouldn't be any cactus in there (except as editor-only eye candy). All but one cactus genus in the Old World* were introduced by humans. They've escaped into the wild, but they're introduced exotic species, not native. Before the Europeans invaded the Americas, they wouldn't be growing in Europe, North Africa, or West Asia. *There's one genus, Rhipsalis, in tropical Africa and Sri Lanka that may have been introduced by birds instead of by humans, or may be native to the Old World, but it wouldn't be in the Mediterranean area anyway. Plus it's an epiphyte that grows in the branches of trees, not on the ground. The cactus family by Edward F. Anderson, 2001 (see p. 39: "With the exception of Rhipsalis baccifera, cacti are strictly New World natives.") Rhipsalis distribution Opuntia distribution and origin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cactus

Laocoon, I think. But it was sent by the Olympians, so the Hittites shouldn't have it. It's just a Ketos.

Yes please, try to make the game work on even older graphics cards! Another game I was eagerly waiting for, which claimed to be free and to be designed for "low-end" computers, requires expensive new graphics cards that have to be bought separately. I was quite upset by that.

You could perhaps also give them a lake serpent with somewhat different stats from the sea serpents in the game (to keep it unique). I don't really know what else to add. I guess I'm not very familiar with prehistoric marine mammals. There is a Odobenocetops (dolphin with walrus-like tusks), and desmostylians. That's two animals, and more recent than Basilosaurus. However, Odobenocetops is only from South America, and desmostylians are only from the north Pacific. Megalodon you mentioned, and since the Polynesians will have several naval units and have numerous types of Taniwha to use for naval myth units, I recommend giving the Megalodon to the Cro-Magnons. According to Wikipedia at least, they lived all over the world and survived at least somewhere until the Pliocene or maybe even the Pleistocene. If you still want the Polynesians to have a shark myth unit, you could give them weresharks: they wouldn't turn into such huge sharks, but they'd double as infantry units on land. Did they base it on a myth? Because it just looks like predator + ammonite, and ammonite isn't a mythical creature at all. It was named by scientists.

Yeah, I've "already voted in this poll" as well. My resolution has one vote on it now, but I doubt it's from me. Well, since the previous votes were recorded, I guess it doesn't matter!

http://www.monstropedia.org/index.php?title=Cwn_Annwn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C5%B5n_Annwn There ya go. Dire wolves and ground sloths are both American animals, so like the Gazeka, they're out of the general range of Ice Age people. That's why I suggested Ancylotherium and early Pleistocene giant wild dogs. If you do decide to include American animals, ground sloths had thin armor under their fur, and their claws were nasty. I don't know if Anancus would work as a seige unit. For cavalry they'd be great, even if their faction don't have any metal sharp enough to tip their tusks. They might be able to attack wooden doors, I don't know how much force an elephant's tusks can take. But I can't imagine them being helpful against stone buildings, except as crude ladders. I don't know what to do about naval myth units. I think you already gave krakens and sea serpents to other factions, right? I guess that since they have the Titans for gods, and the Ophitauros was involved in the Titanomakhia in some way, you could use it, but that's a stretch since it's Greek, and unlike the Neades it isn't prehistoric.

It is going to be difficult to have the wild animals resemble the myth units, you're right about that. Some species have two or mroe different names that can be used but even then, physically they'll still look the same. Also, I don't know how you'll find cryptid names for all of the animals. It's a sensible concern, I just don't know if you'll be able to get it the way you want using that method. Gazeka is from New Guinea? That's completely outside the range of the Pleistocene Cro-Magnons, and how can something look like a tapir and a ground sloth at the same time? Those two animals are nothing alike. A Neas/Ancylotherium would be pretty similar to a ground sloth. For that matter, a Neas/Chilotherium would be similar to a tapir, being semi-aquatic with sharp teeth. Perhaps you could even have three Neades: Lesser Neas (Ancylothere), Water Neas (Chilothere), and Greater Neas (Deinothere), which would cover three different prehistoric animals. Some other names that could work: Mammut = mammoth, and not necessarily a woolly mammoth, any species will do (the woolly species would look out of place next to the African dinosaurs and Greek Titans, IMO) or it could even apply to a mastodon such as Anancus Shelk or Giant Stag = Megaloceros Giant Unicorn = Elasmotherium I can't think of a good name to replace Sivathere, but not all of them need to be wildlife. Just so you know, dire wolves weren't actually any larger than grey wolves -- it's a common misconception, perpetuated by inaccurate depictions. If you want giant wolves, I think Giant Wolf is a fine name, though they might be overly similar to other dog or wolf units. Please tell me the Celts are going to get Red-eared White Hounds of the Wild Hunt as a myth unit? That would be cool.

I can post or PM the descriptions I have.

I will convert you yet! I understand the reason for using the African animals, and your argument does make sense. I guess it's the European-specific reference point of the name Cro-Magnon, and the European nature of the Titans, that makes me leery of using cryptids from far afield. But... you have a good point. Must... not... be... persuaded. The Polynesians can have the giant eagle, though. Not only did giant, moa-eating eagles live in New Zealand, but the Maori have myths about them. On the subject of cryptids, there are a few more you haven't listed that may interest you: the Nandi Bear (aka Duba, Kerit, Chimisit, Kikambangwe, Vere, Sabrookoo) which resembles a giant, shaggy hyena (one of its names could simply be used for the prehistoric giant hyena, if you wanted); the Guiafairo (aka Kikiyaon, Soul Cannibal), a flying, pterodactyl-like creature supposedly summoned by witches; and the Sasabonsam, a bizarre flying humanoid cryptid. Actually, most of those dinosaur-like cryptids I haven't heard of, and I'm quite curious to know more about them. Is there info about Churubusco, Kasai (Rex?), Mbielu-mbielu-mbielu, Muhuru, Ngoubou, Nguma-monene, and/or Ngoima online?

Yeah, I prefer the idea of using cryptids for dinosaurs. As you said, cryptids are a kind of mythical creature. The trouble to me is using cryptids that come from modern cultures, living today, that (given infinite time and resources) would actually be their own factions. For example, the Kongamato belongs to the myths of some modern African ethnic group who aren't any more prehistoric than the Greeks and their Centaurs. Of course, the problem with using European cryptids is that they, too, are associated with more recent, historical ethnic groups. It's an issue for all cryptids. It's kinda too bad that the European cave-painters were so dedicated to recognizable depictions of real animals. If they'd knocked themselves out with painting all sorts of fantastical monsters, none of this would be a problem. As it is, their art only features three fantastical beings that I know of: the "licorne," the deer-man "sorcerer," and the "lion man." The Greeks did refer to the unknown prehistoric animals of Samos Island as Neades. (Neades is the plural -- I don't know what the singular is, maybe Neas). The fossils seem to be Miocene in age, and include Deinotheres (similar to elephants), Ancylotheres (a chalicothere genus), and/or Chilotheres (large, hornless rhinos with sharp teeth). The Deinotheres and Chilotheres are pretty similar to the mammoth and Pleistocene hippo, so personally I'd choose the Ancylothere, call it Neas, and give it the ability to cause a very small earthquake with its roar (based on the myths, based on the fossils!). Or.... you could completely turn it around and make all the dinosaurs into Taniwha varieties, and give them all to the Polynesians. I don't know if dinosaurs lived in Polynesia (probably not) but it fits the Taniwha (though personally I'm fond of draconic Taniwha).

The problem with trying to base it on evidence about real paleolithic religion is that there is too little information. No scholars actually know what the cave-paintings, plump woman/goddess/fertility scuptures, or lion-man figure represented or what they were for. People can make reasonable guesses that could be true, but there's no way to know. If you see some "theory" that claims to know, it's wise to be skeptical. Likewise, the religions of other non-writing cultures (like neolithic people, and the Minoans) are unknown. Hence, using Titans (or animal-gods) is still a better idea. We're just going to have to agree to disagree about using dinosaurs as myth units. Or perhaps I can convince you that the "dinosaurian" editor-only faction could have dinosaurs and pterosaurs for all their myth units, and the Cro-Magnons could have just ice-age animals, a wizard/magician/sorcerer, a shapeshifting deer-man, a lion-headed man, cryptids (just European, North African, and West Asian, since the Titans are a Mediterranean pantheon) and... mammoth mahouts! In fact I thought of a few more extinct animals you could use: Pygmy Hippo. An extinct animal of Cyprus. It's small, but it still has a nasty bite. Sivathere. A horned animal related to giraffes, but more resembling a moose. Elasmothere. A huge rhinoceros the size of a mammoth, with a massive forehead horn several feet long. Also known as the "Giant Unicorn." You could stretch it to include animals from the early Pleistocene, then you could also use giant hyenas, mastodons (Anancus, four-tuskers, and/or Gomphotheres), full-sized hippos, and giant wild dogs.

I suggest not blatantly taking names from the books, especially since they don't really fit and there's no need. Every other faction will have special names for their units, so it should be fine to use mdoern English for just one faction. I admit, I'm having trouble inventing an animal totem pantheon. I can try to help with god powers or technology (I doubt I'll be able to contribute many) if you tell me which gods in which pantheons are missing what. (unless the list of what you've already invented is shorter!). Otherwise, here're my animal gods ideas: Tarpan -- "good" god of fertility Town: Sabreteooth, Shelk City: Bear, Deer Empire: Wheat, Wolf Legend: Willow, Sturgeon Improves speed of all units. Aurochs -- "neutral" god of hunting Town: Mammoth, Shelk City: Beaver, Bear Empire: Bison, Wheat Legend: Raven (or Eagle), Willow Lion -- "evil" god of war Town : Mammoth, Sabreteooth City: Beaver, Deer Empire: Bison, Wolf Legend: Raven (or Eagle), Sturgeon Improves attack damage of all units. Beaver - god of building and engineering - benefits buildings, making them faster to build Bear - improves the efficiency of your citizens in gathering wild food - myth unit: cave bear Sturgeon - god of the waters - improves the speed or strength of boats (they've got to have some boats, right?) Deer - god of magic - benefit: something that makes your magic-wielding units more effective, maybe improving their speed - myth unit: deer shapeshifter (or technology that lets the regular shamans/clerics/magicians shapeshift into deer) http://www.museoorigini.it/pagina85.html Mammoth - myth unit: woolly mammoth Sabretooth - myth unit: sabretooth Shelk - myth unit: giant deer Wheat - god of agriculture - improves the yield of crops and efficiency of your citizen farmers Willow - god of healing and medicine - benefits healers by buffing how much they can heal, or allowing you to research a tech that gives them a stronger healing power Wolf - god of cooperation and community - myth unit: pack of dire wolves

Hmmm... what units do the Cro-magnons have? Do they have cavalry, for example? Boats? Or feel free to tell me you don't want to give them animal totems, then I won't go to the trouble of making them up. The Titans actually work fine, Cro-Magnons is a just strange name to me.

I have no modding, graphics, or programming skills. If I did, I'd try to contribute to 0 A.D.

But I want an Egyptian civilization! Don't you want to pit the dying Republic against the Ptolemies? I do!

Oh, OK, that would be fun too. I was imagining an army of fauns (with Roman buildings and ships) fighting a three-way battle against an army of werewolves (with Slavic buildings), and an army of vampires (with Greek ships and buildings) and similar scenarios. But humans forming alliances with mythical races could be fun as well.You know, now that I think about the good, neutral, and evil division of major gods.... how do you do that with the Christians? I mean, you can interpret the New Testament God as good and make Jesus the good god, and interpret the Old Testament God as neutral, but maybe it'd be better to make all of the "gods" be angels and demons (and Lucifer is a fallen angel, so he still works) and just leave God and Jesus in the background. I forgot that the Cro-Magnons include neolithic people living right before the bronze age. The name Cro-Magnons is throwing me off, I keep thinking they're only paleolithic. Yes the Titans can make sense for a Neolithic group. Prometheus is a minor god though, at least for the Greeks, so maybe you could make Rhea the "good" god and Gaia the "neutral" god. Sometimes Gaia helps the Titans, sometimes she helps the Olympians, sometimes she tries to overthrow whoever happens to be in power at the time. Kronos of course is the perfect evil major god, 'cause well, he's evil. In any case, if using animal gods, it isn't necessary to base it on the Clan of the Cave Bear (I'm guessing that's the book series you refer to.) I can try to come up with it. What are the criteria for gods? Do you have a list of specific things (like agriculture, armor, hunting) that must have minor gods? How many god powers, technologies, unique heroes, and myth units does each major or minor god need to have? I don't know how you are building these pantheons, so if you can give me a template, I'll come up with something to fill in the blanks. By template, I mean something like this: MAJOR GOOD GOD >god power >1st land myth unit >2nd land myth unit >water myth unit >technology/thing it improves for the faction MINOR GOD OF XYZ >god power >myth unit >technology/thing it improves MINOR GOD OF ABC >god power >myth unit >technology/thing it improves etc.

The idea of transforming all the factions into mythical creatures ... that could be pretty fun, actually, the more I think about it. Werewolves and vampires you can give to the Greeks as well as the Slavs -- although they'd have to have separate unit graphics for each. The satyrs, centaurs, dwarves, vampires, and werewolves would be fun, but some of the others -- especially the dinosaurs (and for that matter the Cro-Magnons) -- are fantasy, not myth. And IMO the human groups should either have their own faction or not be in the game. I'd like to see a second African faction, in addition to the Egyptians, as a full faction. I don't see what dinosaurs have to do with cave-men, either -- it looks really out of place to me. Instead you could give Cro-Magnons Lion-men. And you could give the Polynesians Turehu or Patupaiarehe, or even Manaia. The Chinese could have Huli Jing (Fox-folk). You could give the Aztecs Jaguar-men (and the regular Aztecs should totally have a shapeshifting Werejaguar as a myth unit!). Here's the Lion-man statue from which I got the idea -- it's made out of mammoth ivory and is between 30,000 and 28,000 years old: http://robertarood.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/lion-man1.jpg Unfortunately, it just occured to me that the centaurs might not work out, because they eliminate the distinction between a faction's cavalry and infantry units. How's this: Dwarves (Norse) Other kind of Dwarves (Egyptians) Fauns/Satyrs (Greeks and Romans) Vampires (Slavs and Greeks) Werewolves (Slavs and Romans) Alfar (Norse) Huli Jing/Fox-folk (Chinese) Lion-folk (Cro-Magnons) Patupaiarehe (Polynesians) Manaia (Polynesians) Jaguar-folk (Aztecs) Giving the Cro-Magnons Greek gods... I don't like it. I'd rather see them given animal "totems" like Mammoth, Lion, Tarpan, Aurochs, Rhino, Beaver, Wolf, Caribou, Bear, Bison, etc. Maybe include some really important plants, like Willow (giving a bonus to all healers). I guess Lion could fill in for the "evil" god, or better yet, you could use Storm for that. It would be equally fictional, but much more fitting to the cave-man faction. Some of the pantheons seem to be set up with the most important gods being the main three, but some of them don't seem to be. And you listed Izanagi twice. Why not use Amaterasu ("good"), Tsuki-Yomi ("neutral"), and Susanoo ("evil") as the major Shinto gods? And the way that the Christian Lucifer gives you access to God's angels (such as Michael) doesn't make sense to me -- shouldn't he have demons? I'm sorry I can't comment much on the rest of it. I don't really know what criteria are used to list the minor gods with each major god. I'm not meaning to be relentlessly negative all the time, I just generally don't have anything to say about things I don't disagree with.