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Sure. Do you have any replays to share?

You should see how champ cav performs on a TG, and how is the dynamic we talking about. they really need a nerf or some kind of counter unit. its absurd that some of them can wipe out pikes like nothing

I was under the impression that a mix of sail and non-sail boats would be ok, given the previous reception. We have the scout ship as a somewhat faithful recreation of the hjortspring boat, and the fishing ship uses oars instead of a sail. For the merchant ship, it makes sense that sails would supplement trade vessels. As for the arrow ship, it needed a bit more distinguishment from the hjortspring boat, otherwise the ships would be difficult to distinguish quickly. I think there is a degree of plausibility in the use of sail which we can justifiably represent, while keeping a sort of replica of the real hjortspring boat for history enthusiasts to appreciate. Rock art shows a diversity of hjortspring-style boats, some complete with masts and/or sails, plenty of ship settings have single rocks denoting a mast, and north <-> south trade existed.

They are broken because spearmen cant counter them U can get metal easily like how u get wood easily from trees Also with abit turtling u can spam them

we don't play the same game i guess. You have easy 2 or 3 metal mine in your territory. Champ cav are broken and they have absolute no weak point! they are tank, high hp, high attack. They have a big cost effiency combine to mobility. Speciality persians and sélucid some civ can litterality don't play against them. we need nerf champ cav by one solution (cost, tankiness, damage, building training change or another idea)

Yes I know. And as I mentioned there, the consensus is mostly supporting a late adoption of the sail: "The question of when the sail was adopted in the Norse homelands and how this affected the beginning of the earliest overseas voyages has been hotly debated. Some scholars support the idea that sails were used in Scandinavia long before the Viking Age, while a mid to late eighth-century date has been the generally accepted opinion (see Bill, Reference Bill and Klæsøe2010; Westerdal, Reference Westerdahl, Barrett and Gibbons2015: 18). One of the two vessels discovered at Salme in Estonia in 2008 and 2010, dates to around ad 750 and is the earliest evidence of a combined rowing/sailing vessel used by the Scandinavians (Price et al., Reference Price, Peets, Allmäe, Maldre and Oras2016). For Norway, the use of sail is not archaeologically attested before the Oseberg ship which was constructed in ad 820 (Bill, Reference Bill and Klæsøe2010: 27–28), although it is unlikely to have been the first sailing vessel in Norwegian waters. Nevertheless, the introduction of the sail and developments in shipbuilding technology during the Viking Age in this setting should be regarded as improvements and adaptions in response to new uses rather than the result of revolutionary inventions (Barrett, Reference Barrett, Anderson, Barrett and Boyle2010: 290)." Source: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/european-journal-of-archaeology/article/earliest-wave-of-viking-activity-the-norwegian-evidence-revisited/C2A3AB5F0C962CFB700EEAF24970BE49

Every unit has strengths and weaknesses. Spearmen are basic units. Average speed, low cost and mostly pierce damage in melee but can counter cavalry. Trainable in the Village phase. Useless against rams and buildings, somewhat bad against other infantry. Champion cavalry are late game power units. Fast, mobile and powerful, but very expensive to mass. Requires City phase to unlock. Also needs upgrades to resist most of the bonus damage from spearmen, so it requires even more metal to work. Unless metal grows on trees in your games, I don't see how this unit can be considered broken.

Here we are talking about countering units not game play. Any unit in 0ad should have counters.

My post was mostly sarcastic...Oh, well Champion spearmen. Or mass regular spearmen with upgrades. CS spearmen cost 50 F/ 50 W. Champion cavalry costs a LOT more. Fight for map control and force an engagement. Champion Cavalry can pick fights, but not when you're the one who controls Metal mines on a map.

Ok tell me with which unit you counter champ spear cavs of persian with hero and 20% more hp bonus? Yudha is for destroying buildings. It even cant counter normal units well.

I don't support a hard counter style like aoe2 but right now meta is whoever masses champcav first wins (unless he bad micro/noobs ofc) turning almost every game in a champcav race, if you'd have some kind of counter or better soldiers to hold it, player would aim for other strategies. but we can disagree on that ofc

This is so wrong, Mauryans have the strongest champ unit in the game.

I mention and emphasize again,fanatics and champ cavs have no counter. Some nave people say you can counter champs with champs. But its not that true. For example for sele/persian/gaul cav champs, there is 0 counter units ( or champs) in Maury civ. Other units like citizens or mercs ( even cav mercs) have counter in all civs, then they are ok.

Hi, i don't like age of empire for this reason, too much counter of counter. 0ad fight are cool,you don't need too much knowledge. Yes, fanatics are strong. You have to know how to reduce their strength (remove their armor and shield?) or reduce their spam (increase the resource cost). We can even imagine the downgrade to a "mercenary" unit, I mean not champion but not citizen. So it would be a rank 2 unit that costs wood and food. They keep their strength against the cav and can harass a little but less. But above all, their control capacity with the high capture attack is removed. Banning units is not the solution so we have to find a solution, what do the people on the balance team think?

Totally agree on this. But I'd say that every unit should have a counter unit to make the game more dinamically. If a unit doesnt have a counter at least from a good number of civs, then the game just turns into a champcav race. And thats make some kind of boring gameplays

Except Carthage, which has both But yeah, 100% of the above. There will always be some strong unit that will carry the game, no matter how many OP units you ban.

I think in games where champ cav are banned, the civs with the cav mercinaries in mass have the same dynamic as the champ cav previously had. Only available to some civs which are the ones that usually didn't had champ cav. Last time camels worked great against the fanatics. Just back them up in time. Use 2 groups supporting each other. Occasionally use citizen soldiers when they are nearby - but don't chase. As the game progresses one should move away from only citizen soldiers. Elephant archers or siege towers in mass are good too. Just because a tactic can be applied successfully doesn't mean it's OP. One could make some game specific balance like here, but I don't think it's that bad. I would even include champ cav in games.

Tacitus says the ships of the Suiones did not have sails, the over all description is similar to the Hjortspring boat. It's possible sails might have spread through Celtic influence, but this is pure speculation.

I have a different suggestion. How about the 20-30 top-rated "competitive" players agree on a "multiplayer balance" mod, and y'all start using this mod in your games? Leave the "broken" units alone. Every single RTS has them.

Besides the champion cavaliers, Fanatics are by far the most broken units in the game. Seriously, these units are insanely overpowered and hard to counter. Can anyone name a unit that can reliably stop Fanatics? I bet you can’t. They run fast, deal massive damage, and don’t even require metal to produce, which makes spamming them nonstop super easy. The only thing the developers could have done to stop the spamming of this unit was to add metal as a required resource. Unfortunately, they didn’t do that There are players abusing this by spamming Fanatics in P2, and it’s ruining the game for everyone. I wouldn’t be surprised if some ecobot or clever Celt player designed this unit to exploit the game by spamming them relentlessly for an unfair advantage. What do you guys think? Any ideas on how to properly nerf or counter these broken units? I believe adding metal as a required resource to build them would be an effective way to balance this unit. Moreover all cav champs should be nerfed for sure. We’ve already banned Champion Cavaliers from our games, and Fanatics definitely need to be banned as well. If the developers don’t nerf these units in the next alpha update and keep introducing unfair, broken units, we’ll have no choice but to keep banning them from our matches to maintain fair gameplay.

The issue with sails is that they are a weak point on boats and ships, especially for warfare. The Nordic Bronze Age collapsed and the trading network changed considerably with the transition to the Iron Age. Sails could have been used only in long distance trading during the Bronze Age for example. And indeed during the Iron Age, the context changed. Finally, rock arts were mostly located in Sweden and Norway, not in Denmark.

I don't understand, even if I made the path not hardcoded it would only point to one place, so that would be the same as just overriding the file no?

Is not the rock art from the bronze age? It's possible they would have abandoned the sail at some point (the Nordic bronze age seem wealthier and more connected than the later iron age cultures) and it was reintroduced later.