balancing of new added mechanics overall is totally horrible, is there a way to make a mod that changes stats/prices/benefits?

[vinme]

if so, could som1 make it for me? i can give values, nothing complicated ofc. 

 

[Player of 0AD]

Can you give some examples of what you don't like currently?

[real_tabasco_sauce]

which mechanics?

[Stan`]

That's what the Community mod was made for. to adjust stats between releases

 

[LetswaveaBook]

On 27/09/2022 at 9:56 PM, vinme said:

if so, could som1 make it for me? i can give values, nothing complicated ofc. 

Modding is fairly easy for 0ad and it would be little effort to do some small changes.

A bigger challenge is to find people interested in playing a modded version in the lobby. Also, another issue is that some people won't view past the idea of "I would have done it differently".

If you would like to try some modded values, you can list them here and maybe someone has time to make such a mod.

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

On 27/09/2022 at 1:56 PM, vinme said:

if so, could som1 make it for me? i can give values, nothing complicated ofc. 

A bigger challenge is to find people interested in playing a modded version in the lobby. Also, another issue is that some people won't view past the idea of "I would have done it differently".

Me, I test all gameplay and Civs mods.

and by the way I record them to be able to upload ( video) to YouTube.

[vinme]

On 29/09/2022 at 1:41 AM, LetswaveaBook said:

Modding is fairly easy for 0ad and it would be little effort to do some small changes.

A bigger challenge is to find people interested in playing a modded version in the lobby. Also, another issue is that some people won't view past the idea of "I would have done it differently".

If you would like to try some modded values, you can list them here and maybe someone has time to make such a mod.

its not about "i wouldve done it differnetly" id never say game is horrible becuase "i woudve done it differnently" since i put litearlly 0 effort into it, if its in ANY way good thats fine.

but if its bad in some way, ill say, not if its differnet to what i feel is ideal but if its literally bad, ie unusable mechanics, totally, or totally broken mechanics/civs.

as for ideas ill give some for han only, since i hope new civ can be cool and viable

for example make han castle 20% xp requirement tech 25%  as expensive as b4(from 2400 total to 600 total)

give ministers 2x bonus so + (from 2%)4% eco/tech cost/build bonuses and give castle ability to get blacksmith techs (so ministers can be utilized FOR SOMETHING for a cost of making castle, but only 1 tech at a time). give ministers only 2 armor debuff not 4 and add 20% to dps, so 12 per 1 sec. also description of minister building says "train 9 ministers" if limit is 9, remove that limit. cap minister total bonus effect to 80% for techs and buildtime, 25% for eco. change building limit of imperial ministry form 1 to 3, allow to get BOTH techs 50% hp and -50% traintime for ministers but make them cost 600 not 400 each.

make han imperial academy cost 150 100 so 250 total minerals, or even go as low as 200 total so its actually usable instead of stupidly expensive.

2.5x the promotion/vision heroes promotion bonus from -20% to -50%.

now more preferential parts not about fixing unusable mechanics:

give wall heal hero +150hp per sec to walls within 60 meters, instead of +10heal sec passive.

give champion bonus hero +50% capture for heroes and +20% dmg instead of +2 capture prior.to use with 8 capture rate ministers.

make castle 2400 techs be 25% not 20%.

some bonus ideas for ministers: make it so initial ministers give less value, so lets say if keeping 2% and 4 armor/10 dps and all, but each minister has passive of "+5% to all bonuses as well as minister hp per 1 other existing minister present) with cap of 20 so 21 will each give each other 2x hp and bonus leading to 4% and all.

in this case, this will allow for ministers to have 600 hp(200x2 x1.5) with tech+ 21 ministers but ofc quickly detireorates as few are left.

in this case, keep building limit to 2 i think.

 

more theoretically:

similar thing can be made by 9 ministers, making them very strong if all 9 are alive but id say in this case do growing cost, ie per 1 minister made, cost should increase by 100 metal 100 food increasing 7 times total(1 owned at start) final minister costing 800 800.

each new minister has +2% more bonus than last one and gives flat 50 hp/5 dmg bonus to all ministers including itself or new trained ones.

so last one will have 18% bonus and total bonus will be 83%, still capped by same 25% for eco, but otherwise not.

if 1 dies, eco bonuses should get redistributed so you cant mass 9 18% ones.

ofc total cost will be huge 7200 food/wood.

50X9 is 450 and 5x9=45 so in total 9 ministers will each have 650 hp 55 dps or with 50% hp 975 but ofc reduced as they die incentivizing retreat as some die to refill and atack again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

1 hour ago, vinme said:

for example make han castle 20% xp requirement tech 25%  as expensive as b4(from 2400 total to 600 total)

give ministers 2x bonus so + (from 2%)4% eco/tech cost/build bonuses and give castle ability to get blacksmith techs (so ministers can be utilized FOR SOMETHING for a cost of making castle, but only 1 tech at a time). give ministers only 2 armor debuff not 4 and add 20% to dps, so 12 per 1 sec. also description of minister building says "train 9 ministers" if limit is 9, remove that limit. cap minister total bonus effect to 80% for techs and buildtime, 25% for eco. change building limit of imperial ministry form 1 to 3, allow to get BOTH techs 50% hp and -50% traintime for ministers but make them cost 600 not 400 each.

make han imperial academy cost 150 100 so 250 total minerals, or even go as low as 200 total so its actually usable instead of stupidly expensive.

2.5x the promotion/vision heroes promotion bonus from -20% to -50%.

now more preferential parts not about fixing unusable mechanics:

give wall heal hero +150hp per sec to walls within 60 meters, instead of +10heal sec passive.

give champion bonus hero +50% capture for heroes and +20% dmg instead of +2 capture prior.to use with 8 capture rate ministers.

make castle 2400 techs be 25% not 20%.

This sounds great in my opinion. I was concerned about how small an impact the ministers have on gameplay before the release. I think the capture attack hero changes are good to allow for an interesting use of the ministers.
I think these changes, with some player creativity, would make the ministers worth making.

I think it would also be cool if you could speed the production rate of a barracks or stable or imperial academy by up to 2x as fast with like 20% faster per minister. 

Only thing I disagree with would be moving blacksmith techs to fortress, but perhaps I misunderstood that part.

[vinme]

not moving, but giving fortress the option to get techs AS WELL, so blacksmiths would still function normally.

i specified this because blacksmith only has 1 garrison capacity, so you cant use ministers for any blacksmith techs, leaving only eco(also unusable farmstead/storehouse 1 space) and p3 ing(measly 1500 res, in in of itself wont justify making ministers adn even if it did somehow, stil boring only 1 avenue might as well say  in minister description (allows cheaper p3) since it would be the only thing thats done.

also, i wouldnt want this to be too op, so using castle as another cost/timing buffer not to allow insta op cheap tech gain works.

since castle has 20 capacity, it can get garrisoned by ministers.

i was even considering writing giving castle tech to allow blacksmith techs from castle by like 30 sec 200 wood costing tech but felt would be too large a buffer.

speeding up a barac by 2x is basically same or similar at least to adding 1 barac worth of value lets say 300+buildtime implications=600 so 2x faster by 5 ministers would be quite effective, if 9 minister model, i feel this would be fine but if not, quite likely it would be too op, especially if abusing it by placing barac close to eco, and garisoning b4 train, ungarison after batching.

ofc ministers gie so much variety of value, EVEN BUILDTIME so it will be hard to balance, blacksmith tech profit+p3 profit+eco bonus+build bonus+traintime bonus(if added)+of course can not forget about fighting.

[vinme]

just had an idea for ministers, make them be like healers but they give exp at 7.5 per sec. 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

2 hours ago, vinme said:

just had an idea for ministers, make them be like healers but they give exp at 7.5 per sec. 

That would be a fantastic use for them, my only concern would be the other two xp/ promotion buffs the Han get through the hero and the upgrade. I would be in favor of this mechanic replacing the upgrade that han have for promotion experience, since the mechanic has a trade off and a management aspect that is not present with the percentage based upgrade.

Ministers could be an amazingly flexible and fun unit with such an overhaul.

Edited September 30, 2022 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[vinme]

i was thinking about exp upgrade+hero+minister xp heal working together as a whole, so youd get them all to suppliment eachother.

ofc in this case, keeping the 20% less upgrade more expensive would be important, prob 800-1200 food and same amount metal.

and hero would be fine actually, given its total @#$% otherwise, rn keeping it at -20%.

[LetswaveaBook]

On 29/09/2022 at 3:07 PM, vinme said:

for example make han castle 20% xp requirement tech 25%  as expensive as b4(from 2400 total to 600 total)

give ministers 2x bonus so + (from 2%)4% eco/tech cost/build bonuses and give castle ability to get blacksmith techs (so ministers can be utilized FOR SOMETHING for a cost of making castle, but only 1 tech at a time). give ministers only 2 armor debuff not 4 and add 20% to dps, so 12 per 1 sec. also description of minister building says "train 9 ministers" if limit is 9, remove that limit. cap minister total bonus effect to 80% for techs and buildtime, 25% for eco. change building limit of imperial ministry form 1 to 3, allow to get BOTH techs 50% hp and -50% traintime for ministers but make them cost 600 not 400 each.

make han imperial academy cost 150 100 so 250 total minerals, or even go as low as 200 total so its actually usable instead of stupidly expensive.

2.5x the promotion/vision heroes promotion bonus from -20% to -50%.

now more preferential parts not about fixing unusable mechanics:

give wall heal hero +150hp per sec to walls within 60 meters, instead of +10heal sec passive.

give champion bonus hero +50% capture for heroes and +20% dmg instead of +2 capture prior.to use with 8 capture rate ministers.

make castle 2400 techs be 25% not 20%.

some bonus ideas for ministers: make it so initial ministers give less value, so lets say if keeping 2% and 4 armor/10 dps and all, but each minister has passive of "+5% to all bonuses as well as minister hp per 1 other existing minister present) with cap of 20 so 21 will each give each other 2x hp and bonus leading to 4% and all.

in this case, this will allow for ministers to have 600 hp(200x2 x1.5) with tech+ 21 ministers but ofc quickly detireorates as few are left.

I tried to make a mod that has these modification.

However, I do not know how to limit the bonus cap and therefore left the limit on the ministers at 9.

Also, I guess 150 hp per second for walls is awkward. It means the aura heals walls faster than the rate at which 2 (regular) rams damage it.

Vinmemod.zip

[vinme]

@LetswaveaBook Thanks a lot this is pretty interesting!
i agree that the wall regen is too strong, for some reason i accounted for 150 per sec ram dmg, i think 100 per sec makes more sense maybe call it "great wall of china" XD

i have just realized that ministers arent champs, so they dont get affected by hero so giving them champ class would be good.

 i meant minister armor debuff as in comparing ministers to conventional swordinf champs haivng 8, and ministers having 4 thereby ministers having -4 and i meant give -2 instead, ie 6.

i didnt mean give them 2.

from bonus ideas, did you implement only 5% hp? i wanna note that i didnt intend that and initial "fix" ideas to work in same version, and it does not make sense with the limit of 9 also.

techs are all great, imperial academy is very interesting also.

i will definitely look more closely into it tomorrow.

 

 

[LetswaveaBook]

8 hours ago, vinme said:

i agree that the wall regen is too strong, for some reason i accounted for 150 per sec ram dmg, i think 100 per sec makes more sense maybe call it "great wall of china" XD

You can adapt the value by unpacking the zip file and changing the value of 150 in the file han_hero_liu_bang_1.json in the path Vinmemod/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes. You can simply open it with notepad.

 

On 29/09/2022 at 3:07 PM, vinme said:

some bonus ideas for ministers: make it so initial ministers give less value, so lets say if keeping 2% and 4 armor/10 dps and all, but each minister has passive of "+5% to all bonuses as well as minister hp per 1 other existing minister present) with cap of 20 so 21 will each give each other 2x hp and bonus leading to 4% and all.

in this case, this will allow for ministers to have 600 hp(200x2 x1.5) with tech+ 21 ministers but ofc quickly detireorates as few are left.

I implemented the HP bonus idea for mininisters, but there are only 9 of them available, allowing for 1.05^8 (-1)=48% more HP.

 

8 hours ago, vinme said:

 i meant minister armor debuff as in comparing ministers to conventional swordinf champs haivng 8, and ministers having 4 thereby ministers having -4 and i meant give -2 instead, ie 6.

The support_minister.xml file is found in the path Vinmemod/simulation/templates/units/han/ after unpacking the zipfile. It can be opened by notepad again. The armor can be adapted by changing the resistance component.

  <Resistance>
    <Entity>
      <Damage>
        <Hack>2</Hack>
        <Pierce>2</Pierce>
        <Crush>6</Crush>
      </Damage>
    </Entity>
  </Resistance>

8 hours ago, vinme said:

i have just realized that ministers arent champs, so they dont get affected by hero so giving them champ class would be good.

 In the the is a line that reads han_heor_wei_qing_1.json file in the path Vinmemod/simulation/data/auras/units/heroes, adapted a line such that ministers are affected by the hero. This line reads:

"affects": ["Minister", "Champion"]

However Ministers are still support units and not soldiers. This effects their behaviour(they tend to run instead of fighting). The second line of the The support_minister.xml file says it inherits several values of the <Entity parent="template_unit_support"> file. This file is also the parent of the file for the women. In this parent file we find the component:

  <UnitAI>
    <DefaultStance>passive</DefaultStance>
  </UnitAI>

Also, ministers are support units and are thus not affected by military upgrades, Only soldiers are affected by the upgrades in the forge. If you want to fix both issues, you can replace the second line of the support_minster.xml file by

<Entity parent="template_unit_champion">

 

 

 

[vinme]

i see, but im not planning on figuring this stuff out further, so i wont even start to make a mod 5% of the way that i wont finish. TY for mod.

if theres anyone who already knows this stuff well and can easily make such simple adjustments for me, we can work together and make a totally fixed/improved 0ad mod prob within a day or 2 tops since it takes such minimal effort for me to figure out proper balance for functional, viable but not op options and it would be equally easy for someone well versed in this stuff to simply adjust the values.

in fact ill post this separately.