I suggest to encourage players to build walls, and to steer away from the concept that player's first base is his last.

[thankforpieOfficial]

1. Castles usually have walls, but players never build them. I suggest to encourage players to build walls so that our castles resemble castles more.
   Such could be done by making them cheaper, more durable or more useful.
   Right now, the problem with walls is that u can go around them. and if you fully cover a finished 200pop base with walls, it will take way too much time, citizens and resources. At least that's how it was last time I played.
2. I don't get why player usually loses when you destroy his CC? I suggest more nomadic approach, or multibase approach. Where player can quickly build a next base, or play with 2 and more bases.
   I suggest to make it worth it for player to build second base in early game.
   Or to look into the concept of mobile bases more.
   Or to make your armies build things when theyre outside the base.
   Right now once armies leave the base theyre going straight for cc with continous barrack spam. Perhaps make it worth it to build the barracks far from initial base, along with other buildings.

Edited August 29, 2022 by thankforpieOfficial

[thankforpieOfficial]

unironically, Seleucids' military camp could work as second base, IN THEORY. in practice no one builds it cus its expensive and even if they do, they build it near their cc.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

There has been an effort to reduce the territory increase with each age and to decrease the cost of civic centers.

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3601

Also, @ValihrAnt made an experimental mod for some changes, including less CC,colony territory increase and decreased CC, colony cost.

I think the patch is good, because the city phase in particular has too much area. If more changes are needed after this patch, then the cost and base territory radius (without phase increases) should be reduced.

[Stan`]

17 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

There has been an effort to reduce the territory increase with each age and to decrease the cost of civic centers.

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3601

Also, @ValihrAnt made an experimental mod for some changes, including less CC,colony territory increase and decreased CC, colony cost.

I think the patch is good, because the city phase in particular has too much area. If more changes are needed after this patch, then the cost and base territory radius (without phase increases) should be reduced.

Just in case, we're now in string freeze so any change changing the ingame strings cannot be merged.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

19 minutes ago, Stan` said:

Just in case, we're now in string freeze so any change changing the ingame strings cannot be merged.

yes I was just talking about potential changes down the road.

[thankforpieOfficial]

even though I didnt specify it on OP, both of these changes will result in more ways to play and I believe thats what brings people to competetive games like 0ad - to figure out various combinations and strategies, to come up with the most efficient mix of these combinations and become good at it

2 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

There has been an effort to reduce the territory increase with each age and to decrease the cost of civic centers.

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3601

Also, @ValihrAnt made an experimental mod for some changes, including less CC,colony territory increase and decreased CC, colony cost.

I think the patch is good, because the city phase in particular has too much area. If more changes are needed after this patch, then the cost and base territory radius (without phase increases) should be reduced.

Territory decrease would support this concept, because barracks and other buildings could be built in second base, instead of using your former's base territory range and increasing it with each building in the direction of enemy (usually thats how it goes when players spam barracks)

[AIEND]

1 小时前，real_tabasco_sauce 说：

是的，我只是在谈论未来的潜在变化。

In fact, I have always been amazed at the high cost of CC, maybe people want it too much to be a fortress barracks rather than a building for economic development.

I weakened the firepower of CC in the mod, and only allowed ten people to shoot arrows and not be able to train troops (I separated civilians and soldiers), so the cost was reduced to 400 wood and 200 stone. This way I can easily build 2-3 new CCs purely to train more civilians to develop the economy.

[Gurken Khan]

15 minutes ago, thankforpieOfficial said:

even though I didnt specify it on OP, both of these changes will result in more ways to play and I believe thats what brings people to competetive games like 0ad - to figure out various combinations and strategies, to come up with the most efficient mix of these combinations and become good at it

I believe players don't build walls because they're not efficient. If you want to change the gameplay to encourage turtling I expect heavy resistance from the vocal MP crowd.

I always build military colonies, because they each have a unit I want. If territory and cost are reduced, I guess I would build more CCs/MCs, but I don't see it as a priority.

[AIEND]

In addition, the city wall should be built in a neutral area. There are actually many narrow passages formed by mountains and forests on the map. These are good places to build city walls. You only need a few short city walls and city gates to block the enemy from attacking you. All routes in town.

[thankforpieOfficial]

18 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

I believe players don't build walls because they're not efficient. If you want to change the gameplay to encourage turtling I expect heavy resistance from the vocal MP crowd.

I always build military colonies, because they each have a unit I want. If territory and cost are reduced, I guess I would build more CCs/MCs, but I don't see it as a priority.

0ad should try achieve a balance, with +/- 50% of players building walls, and other 50% not building. Definitely better than 100% turtling or 100% not building walls at all.

Base design should matter too

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by thankforpieOfficial

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Just now, thankforpieOfficial said:

Base design should matter too

It is pretty important right now actually, for example, do you have barracks near your woodlines, other resources. Houses for garrisoning women? Any blind spots? 

[Gurken Khan]

10 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

It is pretty important right now actually, for example, do you have barracks near your woodlines, other resources. Houses for garrisoning women? Any blind spots? 

Right. I try to factor in such thoughts when I build and send units to work. Most basic: send women inwards/backwards, soldiers forward.

I guess walls are just not worth the effort. Like historically: when walls had a use they were built, when not they weren't.

[Lion.Kanzen]

11 hours ago, AIEND said:

12 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

是的，我只是在谈论未来的潜在变化。

In fact, I have always been amazed at the high cost of CC, maybe people want it too much to be a fortress barracks rather than a building for economic development

it would be nice to have several paths or evolutions.

In theory it is an urban center + government center.

[Lion.Kanzen]

It occurs to me that CC should have 3 types of evolutions.

 

1-Military Fortress like a Castle focus in military bonus. Replaces villager with slaves. Replaces some SC with champions or mercenaries.Replaces some SC with champions or mercenaries.

2-Civic Cultural unique tech and units replaces military with support units.

3-Government Center.

New technologies, replaces CC with champion units and can create militias like in AoE III. The cc stop being a dropsite .

 

[AIEND]

3 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

我突然想到CC应该有3种演变。

 

1-军事要塞像城堡一样集中在军事奖励中。 用奴隶代替村民。 将一些 SC 替换为冠军或雇佣兵。将一些 SC 替换为冠军或雇佣兵。

2-公民文化独特的技术和单位用支持单位代替军事。

3-政府中心。

新技术，用冠军单位取代 CC，并可以像 AoE III 中那样创建民兵。 cc 不再是 dropsite 。

 

I'm only in favor of item 2, CC should be demilitarized, instead of trying to get CC to get the features that Fortress had in Alpha 23, why not just restore those features to Fortress? Should allow fortresses to be built and train champions and mercenaries in neutral areas.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, AIEND said:

I'm only in favor of item 2, CC should be demilitarized, instead of trying to get CC to get the features that Fortress had in Alpha 23, why not just restore those features to Fortress? Should allow fortresses to be built and train champions and mercenaries in neutral areas.

and it's already planned, it would be like the Town Center of AoM.

https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Fortified_Town_Center

 

 

@Stan` 

 split the topic.

 

[Design] CC and beyond a rework for CC.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Lion.Kanzen

[AIEND]

9 小时前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

它已经计划好了，就像 AoM 的市中心一样。

https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Fortified_Town_Center

 

 

@斯坦`  

拆分主题。

 

[设计] CC 和超越 CC 的返工。

This is not the same. The Civic Center in AoM must be built at a fixed location on the map, so CC needs to be fortified, while the Civic Center in 0 AD is more like Rise of Nations. Around this building, it first forms a economic center.

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 hours ago, AIEND said:

This is not the same. The Civic Center in AoM must be built at a fixed location on the map, so CC needs to be fortified, while the Civic Center in 0 AD is more like Rise of Nations. Around this building, it first forms a economic center.

I didn't say it was 100% the same.

It is a CC with more hitpoints and resistance.

[AIEND]

6 小时前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

我没说100%一样。

这是一个拥有更多生命值和抗性的CC。

I hope the CC is weaker and easier to rebuild. Players should use walls and forts to protect the CC, which should be inside the town, instead of exposing the CC to the outside to resist the enemy.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, AIEND said:

I hope the CC is weaker and easier to rebuild. Players should use walls and forts to protect the CC, which should be inside the town, instead of exposing the CC to the outside to resist the enemy.

Ideally, it should be weak and get stronger with each phase.

I like the idea of AoE IV. leave the CCs in ruins so that they can be rebuilt(over the ruins).At least the initial and this one is called Landmark or is considered as one (in Spanish we do not have an equivalent word).

https://gamerant.com/age-of-empires-4-landmarks-guide/

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

in this alpha it is better to build walls. definitely.

The problem with 0A.D and the walls is that they don't serve to close natural borders, but to create walled cities.

[Lion.Kanzen]

On 29/08/2022 at 6:15 AM, thankforpieOfficial said:

1.  
2. I don't get why player usually loses when you destroy his CC? I suggest more nomadic approach, or multibase approach. Where player can quickly build a next base, or play with 2 and more bases.

It would be nice to build warehouses and farmland in neutral territory.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Lion.Kanzen

[smiley]

2 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

I like the idea of AoE IV. leave the CCs in ruins so that they can be rebuilt(over the ruins).

This was the original plan for 0AD as well. It was called settlements instead of ruins. Map is divided into provinces and each province has a settlement.

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/War_Story

[Lion.Kanzen]

47 minutes ago, smiley said:

This was the original plan for 0AD as well. It was called settlements instead of ruins. Map is divided into provinces and each province has a settlement.

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/War_Story

that's right, in its beginnings 0 AD was heavily influenced by AoM.

[AIEND]

6 小时前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

在这个 alpha 中，最好建墙。 确实。

0A.D 和城墙的问题在于它们不是用来关闭自然边界，而是用来创建有围墙的城市。

Yes, surrounding the city with walls at the same time only limits the expansion of the city, so Iberia's walls at the beginning of the game are not so popular.