Is RTS Doomed? (when the title has a question mark in it, the answer is usually 'no')

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

 

 

80:20 rule

80% of your players are single player

20% of your players are multiplayers

It's insinuated that this apparently even holds for Starcraft 2. 

 

Fundamentals are super important, such as smooth pathfinding, logical group movement, and unit responsiveness. Players will give up on your game if they are frustrated by the controls.

 

 

Spectacle is important. It's super fun to do cool things. Age of Mythology had monsters and god powers. Warcraft 3 had spells, heroes, elves, orcs. Starcraft 1&2 have flying units, LASERs, aliens, and mechas. Even the "mundane" Age of Empires series allows you to build cool cities and large armies that clash on the battlefield. 

A lot of "Spectacle" gets cut because it "imbalances" multiplayer. "When you design for multiplayer first, you inevitably cut the things that should be selling your game."

 

A Great Map/Scenario Editor makes a Great RTS. Dev Tools important. A Great Editor helps Users/Players and Devs create great experiences.

 

User Created content needs to be fostered and supported. 

Edited March 27, 2022 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[ChronA]

3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Fundamentals are super important, such as smooth pathfinding, logical group movement, and unit responsiveness. Players will give up on your game if they are frustrated by the controls.

This was my only disagreement with the original video. Consumers will absolutely tolerate shocking amounts of control jank and unresponsiveness if they service truly unique and compelling gameplay. E.g. Dark Souls: a combat focused action RPG that bucks 15 years of button mapping convention and features a combat system that locks the player into a long, high latency animation each time they try to attack. It spawned a hugely popular series and a copycat genre that continue to feature these limitations as a calling card to this day. There is also a whole genre of popular games based on trying to perform mundane tasks through a clumsy interface of procedural, physics based moment. Heck, even the character movement in most acclaimed third person RPGs of recent years, e.g. Witcher 3 and GTA/RDR, is pretty clumsy.

The key however is that these games offer unique value propositions that cannot be satisfied otherwise. In the context of an RTS, if all you are fundamentally offering is another SC2 or AOE2 clone, then yes you better provide an interface that is as good or better. (This is leaving aside the open question of whether RTS can even produce anything worth playing besides SC2 and AOE2 clones.)

 

[Stan`]

4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Fundamentals are super important, such as smooth pathfinding, logical group movement, and unit responsiveness

So no turn rates, no acceleration.

 

[LetswaveaBook]

I don't think RTS is doomed. Obviously RTS is not where the big money is.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

7 hours ago, Stan` said:

So no turn rates, no acceleration.

I think those features make sense for large units, such as ships, siege, and elephants (and maybe chariots), but for most units, especially foot units, yeah, maybe not instant turning and instant acceleration, but nearly so. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

7 hours ago, ChronA said:

The key however is that these games offer unique value propositions that cannot be satisfied otherwise. In the context of an RTS, if all you are fundamentally offering is another SC2 or AOE2 clone, then yes you better provide an interface that is as good or better. (This is leaving aside the open question of whether RTS can even produce anything worth playing besides SC2 and AOE2 clones.)

 

Battle for Middle Earth had a great thing going before EA lost its license. I still have BfME2 installed after 15 years. Lots of unique features in it that make it stand out from AOE and SC. I like the hero customizer (wish it was expanded though). The upgradeable battalions are boss and inspire me to this day.

Company of Heroes had the interesting squad mechanics, cover, building infiltration, destructible environment, etc. 

Rise&Fall: Civilizations at War was a half-finished game, but it had a very cool hero-RPG dynamic which made it stand out. Unfortunately, Stainless Steel Studios folded just before the game could be completed, which forced their publisher Midway to "finish" it for release.  

[Stan`]

I loved BFME' heroes

[Yekaterina]

So now I play a lot of Super Mecha Champions instead of 0AD, and I play(ed) both in multiplayer mode. SMC is a battle royale first person shooter with mecha battles, driving and anime characters. Now, I am a FPS pro so I get used to it very easily, but for someone who has never played either games:

• Both types of games require high actions per minute and fast reaction times
• 0AD forces you to consider more about strategy, placement of units, managing. You are the dictator and you tell your people what to do. 
• SMC is more about cleverly positioning yourself on the map, picking the correct weapon and choosing which fight to get involved in. Players are the units.
• Both games require skills in fighting; SMC requires aiming skills, prioritising weapons / targets, whereas 0ad is about microing your army (commanding skills). 
• 0AD requires eco skills whereas supplies in SMC are gathered easily in dropsites. 
• Both games need time to gather resources / do eco. 
• AI is stupid in both games  (or maybe I am too OP at both  )
• Both games are in active development and both dev teams are good. 

 

Why someone would pick SMC over 0AD:

1. Larger player base - you can automatically join battle royale games 24/7, the waiting time is very short and if there is a lack of human players, a few AI bots can join to fill the gap and you won't notice them too much. In 0ad lobby there is much more waiting and in European mornings there are few players. 

2. Insensitive to balance - good players win and bad players loose, obviously. Each match of 100 players is only automatically matched between players within a certain range of levels so there isn't too big a difference between you (e.g. level20-30 in 1 game, 40-60 in 1 game). This makes the game inclusive and there is no drama about imbalanced games or 'I don't know you'. 

3. Less personal involvement. Solo mode (1 against 99 ffa) is very prevalent and there is no need to communicate in that. For squad mode, you can use set phrases, e.g. 'Enemies ahead!'. When you send out this message, it will automatically be translated to whatever language your teammate uses. Since everyone uses this type of set messages all the time, there is no such thing as profanity. You can add people as friends of course. You rarely see the same player twice so you will never 'know' anyone and hence you can't just guess people's playstyle based on the dude behind the keyboard - no smurf speculation drama. In 0AD knowing your enemy's playstyle is too important to your victory (whether they are rusher or boomer or turtle) so people always try to make sure they know who is behind the keyboard. 

4. Hackers, smurfs, DDOS is less of an issue. If someone hacks and make themselves OP, then they will likely shoot anyone they see -> exposes their position -> all people target the hacker -> hacker dies quickly or gets weakened. Smurfs...  using a smurf account means you have to start from scratch, from the very basic equipments and no upgrades -> smurfs can't play to the best of their skills -> not so much better than other noobs -> harmless. Therefore smurf speculation doesn't exist. DDOS is almost impossible because the server is in US and they have good defence (NetEase OP) so don't even think about it. But smurfs in 0ad can ruin games too easily; hackers and DDOSers as well. 

 

Why 0AD might be more enjoyable than SMC:

1. A lot of different strategies, maps and contents to explore. 

2. Completely free and open source. SMC has a lot of paying involved if you want the prettiest skin or unlock the most OP mechas before you reach the requried levels.

3. Uses more brains and micro skills.

4. Opportunity to engage in long conversations with 'real' people and not some chatbot. (ignoring the few toxic dudes in the lobby)

5. Some people might have motion sickness or 3D thickness and feel dizzy after running around in circles for 10 minutes. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Yekaterina said:

For squad mode, you can use set phrases, e.g. 'Enemies ahead!'. When you send out this message, it will automatically be translated to whatever language your teammate uses.

I really like this a lot^

[bad player]

On 27/03/2022 at 9:22 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Fundamentals are super important, such as smooth pathfinding, logical group movement, and unit responsiveness. Players will give up on your game if they are frustrated by the controls.

whats wrong with controls? controls are good enough

playes will give up on game after getting bored of it. thats the case for most games. always has been

if controls are so insufferable that they would make players quit, most likely, you wouldnt even hear about such game

so definitely what matters is stimulation and lengthening the period of 'interesting' gameplay, and thus postponing the 'boring'

[Lion.Kanzen]

On 27/03/2022 at 2:13 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Rise&Fall: Civilizations at War was a half-finished game, but it had a very cool hero-RPG dynamic which made it stand out. Unfortunately, Stainless Steel Studios folded just before the game could be completed, which forced their publisher Midway to "finish" it for release

From Rick Goodman the man from Empire Earth I, Age of Empires I.

 

always had good ideas.

https://www.peachpit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=99708&seqNum=9

 

[bad player]

On 11/04/2022 at 9:16 AM, Lion.Kanzen said:

From Rick Goodman the man from Empire Earth I, Age of Empires I.

 

always had good ideas.

https://www.peachpit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=99708&seqNum=9

 

where can i read about this hero idea?

[bad player]

On 11/04/2022 at 9:16 AM, Lion.Kanzen said:

From Rick Goodman the man from Empire Earth I, Age of Empires I.

 

always had good ideas.

https://www.peachpit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=99708&seqNum=9

 

please tell me moar about da hero

Edited April 13, 2022 by bad player

[Lion.Kanzen]

19 hours ago, bad player said:

where can i read about this hero idea?

 it depends what you want to know about him.

 

There are several interviews with him.

 

 

[bad player]

31 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

 it depends what you want to know about him.

 

There are several interviews with him.

 

 

i do want to know about the dude just specifically about the rpg-hero idea

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

On 14/04/2022 at 8:56 AM, bad player said:

i do want to know about the dude just specifically about the rpg-hero idea