proposed features mod

[LetswaveaBook]

15 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

what are your thoughts on changing the team bonuses for civs in this mod. I suppose we could quickly think of some for britons, carthaginians, persians, and athenians.

Any other suggestions are welcome, but this is what I have in mind:

Brits: First healer is free, other healers are 20% cheaper.

cart: Markets are 40% cheaper and first land trader is free.

Persians: stable techs are researched in half the time.

Also I would allow teatres in p2 and give theatres an extra aura: Technologies at the CC (including p3) cost -20% resources and -50% time.

Athenians: Theatres are affordable.

[Acanthis]

15 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

@LetswaveaBook what are your thoughts on changing the team bonuses for civs in this mod. I suppose we could quickly think of some for britons, carthaginians, persians, and athenians. Perhaps also a replacement for Mace team bonus since that is busted.

Maybe +catapult splash dmg if it is possible?

In another thread there was some talk (IIRC) about having naval and land (or 'global') bonuses for each civ. I think this is a good idea.

I'm most familiar with Athenian and Persian history from university studies. I'd suggest:

Athens

Naval Bonus

Delian League. It really depends on which one you are talking about since there were two alliances separated by some time, the first aimed at the Persians and the second at the Spartans. The obligations of the Athenian allies were different and changed over time.

In the first alliance (literally The Athenians and Their Allies, Delian League is later name) allies would either contribute triremes or money. How much of each was assessed on the individual ally's capacity. Towards the end of the first alliance, most (all? can't quite recall) paid in money. If you wanted to base the bonus on the first alliance, I'd propose that their bonus increases the fighting stats of naval ships in the alliance to reflect Athenian maritime dominance. Train time is already reflected in technology availability so I'd rather see their effectiveness as a fighting force increased.

The second alliance was different. It was based on harbor duties levied on goods passing through the Piraeus. This model did not bring in quite the revenue that the first did and that led to some rather "creative" means by which the admirals would fund their missions. Perhaps the bonus if modeled on this alliance, the bonus could be something like a slow trickle of metal (like Ptolemies food bonus) and a naval trade bonus to reflect the protection of sea trade by the Athenian fleet.

So you could either choose economic or military bonuses depending on which alliance you are referring to. Of course you could also combine some of the proposed economic and military bonuses to blend the time frame.

Land Bonus

 Athenian military strategy during the time of both alliances mentioned above really shied away from land engagements unless absolutely necessary. Two notable failures at siege warfare are their attempts on a small Corinthian colony of Potidaea (the first attempt was a failure, then they unwittingly brought the same plague which was about to decimate Athens proper) and later at Syracuse (total, utter catastrophe). That said, they had a strong "hoplite tradition" (already in game) and cavalry (eventually they had at least 10 horse transports) which shocked the Spartans from time to time. Therefore I think a land or globally useful bonus for the Athenians might be better construed as an economic bonus, perhaps reduced non-blacksmith technology costs (so it could stack with Gauls?). This would reflect the increased demand for trade in goods from throughout the Black Sea and Mediterranean.

Persia

Naval Bonus

The Persians had no fleet of their own. They were quite adept at drawing on the strengths of conquered peoples. In their long running wars against and with Greek city states (funny how all that turned out), the fleets they raised from the Phoenicians and Egyptians were rarely effective. In time the local governors and various kings themselves decided it was best to supply money. The Spartan navy was subsidized by Persian gold and silver (effectively serving the same role as the Second Delian League). Therefore, I'd suggest their bonus be a reduction in the metal cost of naval units.

Land Bonus

Trading bonuses would only be nice if trade were more useful in the game. Again, like in naval matters, if you were an ally (not a subject) of the Persian Empire, the Persians were rather open handed in terms of funding wars (at least vis a vis the Peloponnesian Wars). Although it would not be very different than the proposed Naval Bonus, you could have a bonus that reduces the cost of metal for citizen soldiers and citizen cavalry. 

Edit, obviously I haven't played in a while and CS soldiers/cav don't cost metal. D'oh.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Acanthis

[LetswaveaBook]

3 hours ago, Acanthis said:

Athens

Naval Bonus

Delian League. It really depends on which one you are talking about since there were two alliances separated by some time, the first aimed at the Persians and the second at the Spartans. The obligations of the Athenian allies were different and changed over time.

In the first alliance (literally The Athenians and Their Allies, Delian League is later name) allies would either contribute triremes or money. How much of each was assessed on the individual ally's capacity. Towards the end of the first alliance, most (all? can't quite recall) paid in money. If you wanted to base the bonus on the first alliance, I'd propose that their bonus increases the fighting stats of naval ships in the alliance to reflect Athenian maritime dominance. Train time is already reflected in technology availability so I'd rather see their effectiveness as a fighting force increased.

The second alliance was different. It was based on harbor duties levied on goods passing through the Piraeus. This model did not bring in quite the revenue that the first did and that led to some rather "creative" means by which the admirals would fund their missions. Perhaps the bonus if modeled on this alliance, the bonus could be something like a slow trickle of metal (like Ptolemies food bonus) and a naval trade bonus to reflect the protection of sea trade by the Athenian fleet.

So you could either choose economic or military bonuses depending on which alliance you are referring to. Of course you could also combine some of the proposed economic and military bonuses to blend the time frame.

Land Bonus

 Athenian military strategy during the time of both alliances mentioned above really shied away from land engagements unless absolutely necessary. Two notable failures at siege warfare are their attempts on a small Corinthian colony of Potidaea (the first attempt was a failure, then they unwittingly brought the same plague which was about to decimate Athens proper) and later at Syracuse (total, utter catastrophe). That said, they had a strong "hoplite tradition" (already in game) and cavalry (eventually they had at least 10 horse transports) which shocked the Spartans from time to time. Therefore I think a land or globally useful bonus for the Athenians might be better construed as an economic bonus, perhaps reduced non-blacksmith technology costs (so it could stack with Gauls?). This would reflect the increased demand for trade in goods from throughout the Black Sea and Mediterranean.

Persia

Naval Bonus

The Persians had no fleet of their own. They were quite adept at drawing on the strengths of conquered peoples. In their long running wars against and with Greek city states (funny how all that turned out), the fleets they raised from the Phoenicians and Egyptians were rarely effective. In time the local governors and various kings themselves decided it was best to supply money. The Spartan navy was subsidized by Persian gold and silver (effectively serving the same role as the Second Delian League). Therefore, I'd suggest their bonus be a reduction in the metal cost of naval units.

Land Bonus

Trading bonuses would only be nice if trade were more useful in the game. Again, like in naval matters, if you were an ally (not a subject) of the Persian Empire, the Persians were rather open handed in terms of funding wars (at least vis a vis the Peloponnesian Wars). Although it would not be very different than the proposed Naval Bonus, you could have a bonus that reduces the cost of metal for citizen soldiers and citizen cavalry. 

 Naval is a concept that is not well developed and it is odd anyway. Unless there are major changes to naval warfare, I will just regard 0ad as a land focused game. Adding naval bonusses would be fine to me, but a faction should also have its perks on land. 

Finally, for me the focus lies to much on fights if factions have their team bonusses affect just battle capabilities. I would also like bonusses that are not strictly military related but for example culture related as well.  

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

If athenians get a team bonus that gives a metal or stone trickle, then it should be quite slow (maybe 1/2 speed of ptol bonus) and also start at a later time, perhaps upon completion of p2 phase-up for each player in the alliance. This would be to prevent players from starting p2 with almost all the ingredients for p3 already accumulated.

Perhaps another Persian civ bonus could be double horse carrying capacity. Something to do with horse breeding. The reason for this is to allow pers to have an easier time making use of horses for food eco. Sure persians have 2 kinds of horses in p1, but they still depend on cavalry for p1 and p2 security, which means if they don't have any hunt, then they will not be able to stop rushes in p1 and stop encroachment in p2. If persians can hunt more efficiently (better carrying capacity) then a pers player can feel better about making cavalry to not die. 

@LetswaveaBook what is the reason for the first trader or first healer being free in brit and carthaginian team bonuses? To me, this seems more like a token and less like an actionable team bonus.

• my thoughts were: Athens, "democracy" -50% phase up cost and time.
• britons, maurs, or carth (whichever makes more sense): -15% batch training time for women. (for a persian stable -10% batch train time changes train time from 1:34 to 1:15 for 10 hyrcanian cav). The gameplay benefits of this would be a faster eco for the team of this bonus, but also greater risk of exploiting the bonus. 
• Melee inf +10% move speed. This is an economic bonus, because it would be a little easier to stop rushes and melee would have faster return rates to res, and a military bonus because maneuvering would be easier.
• seles could get their civ bonus buffed a bit, since -20% is not very much. -25% would be better and maybe add -25% build time too.
• Macedonian civ bonus has a big problem with it (res generation), so it could get changed to be the same as kush bonus but for siege instead of eles.
• Maurs: current bonus, but +garrisoned heal rate also
• Persians: stables -50% cost and build time, and stable upgrades -50% time (like @LetswaveaBook had said). (just -50% time does not compare to gauls bonus for military upgrades).
• Some civ (maybe brit): citizen soldiers get same berry rate as women this helps that team take berries that are in dangerous places and have an easier time transitioning to farms.

The current situation is that most civ bonuses are weak besides gaul, iber, ptol, and rome. If we nerf the powerful civ bonuses, it is basically like removing civ bonuses from the game, since they would not be considered during civ selection. Because of this, it makes much more sense to make new civ bonuses or buff old ones for civs like brits, athens, pers, maur, carth, and maybe sele

 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[LetswaveaBook]

15 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

@LetswaveaBook what is the reason for the first trader or first healer being free in brit and carthaginian team bonuses? To me, this seems more like a token and less like an actionable team bonus.

It allows you to use things you would normally not use and it gives a little extra benefit to unlocking these buildings/p2. Also it allows you to vary your playstyle a little. The Gallic, Roman or Ptolemaic team bonusses don't encourage varying your playstyle.

The idea with the theatres was also basically a way to research city phase faster. It only affects those who have access to a certain unit, but the Kushite team bonus  also only benefits those factions only with access to elephants.

20 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

• Macedonian civ bonus has a big problem with it (res generation), so it could get changed to be the same as kush bonus but for siege instead of eles.

Some people want mace to be the siege faction. A bonus to siege would be nice for them.

 

27 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

The current situation is that most civ bonuses are weak besides gaul, iber, ptol, and rome.

I think Iber and Ptol team bonusses are to strong, while Athens, Britons,  Persians and Carthaginians have bonusses that are to weak. The Ptol and Iber team bonuses have a major impact on the game, whereas I think the faction specific bonusses your own faction should be more important than the team bonusses of your allies.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@LetswaveaBook

How about this:

Persians: -15%  CS (or maybe all?) cavalry train time. (counterpart to roman bonus, greater because roman bonus more greatly impacts eco)

Macedonians: siege (or siege workshop?) -20% cost -20% train time, this is like a siege equivalent of ele bonus for kush.

 

17 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

The Gallic, Roman or Ptolemaic team bonusses don't encourage varying your playstyle.

I would say that the rome and iber bonuses encourage people to boom, whereas the persian bonus above would encourage rushing or perhaps cav eco if it is feasible.

 

17 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

faction specific bonusses your own faction should be more important than the team bonusses of your allies.

I 100% agree. Like for example: I think a good plan for Athens is make what you currently have in the mod the team bonus (either lower metal cost for eco upgrades and OR better metal mining rate), and make the civ bonus "democracy" with a cheaper and faster phase up.

Edited February 3, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[LetswaveaBook]

21 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

• Macedonian civ bonus has a big problem with it (res generation), so it could get changed to be the same as kush bonus but for siege instead of eles.

I think it might be more fun if it added extra range to ranged siege weapons rather than cost.

On 02/02/2022 at 3:28 AM, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Maybe +catapult splash dmg if it is possible?

This should be possible since it also was in earlier alphas.

Especially the splash+extra range for mace might be nice. What do you think?

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

7 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

I think it might be more fun if it added extra range to ranged siege weapons rather than cost.

I believe Demitrius the Besieger already does this.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

A siege range bonus for the whole team sounds weird. This sounds more like a civ bonus.

On 02/02/2022 at 1:32 PM, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

• my thoughts were: Athens, "democracy" -50% phase up cost and time.
• britons, maurs, or carth (whichever makes more sense): -15% batch training time for women. (for a persian stable -10% batch train time changes train time from 1:34 to 1:15 for 10 hyrcanian cav). The gameplay benefits of this would be a faster eco for the team of this bonus, but also greater risk of exploiting the bonus. 
• Melee inf +10% move speed. This is an economic bonus, because it would be a little easier to stop rushes and melee would have faster return rates to res, and a military bonus because maneuvering would be easier.
• seles could get their civ bonus buffed a bit, since -20% is not very much. -25% would be better and maybe add -25% build time too.
• Macedonian civ bonus has a big problem with it (res generation), so it could get changed to be the same as kush bonus but for siege instead of eles.
• Maurs: current bonus, but +garrisoned heal rate also
• Persians: stables -50% cost and build time, and stable upgrades -50% time (like @LetswaveaBook had said). (just -50% time does not compare to gauls bonus for military upgrades).
• Some civ (maybe brit): citizen soldiers get same berry rate as women this helps that team take berries that are in dangerous places and have an easier time transitioning to farms.

+

 

Maybe for now, we should just focus on the team bonuses that absolutely need to be changed like the broken mace one.

Mace team bonus: cheaper siege, faster training siege.

Persians team bonus: stables -50% cost and build time, and stable upgrades -50% time

Athens civ bonus: -50 percent phase up time/cost   Team bonus: trickle metal starting in p2.

I don't think the theater in p2 is a good idea because its sole purpose would be for faster p3, seems counterintuitive. Also its weird as a team bonus because only some civs get theaters anyway. It's like if all ptol allies got low wood cost houses.

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

I am wondering about firecav whether a true damage nerf is best or some other kind of change. Keep in mind there is also briton chariot, but its not as easy as firecav in a25. It is also much easier to prevent a briton champion spam than iberians, because food eco can be attacked much easier.

• range reduction
• accuracy reduction
• less fire damage to strong and important structures like cc, fort (give those structures 2x as much fire resistance)
• reduce pierce armor by 1

The power of firecav in a25 has made ibers a cav civ. Also, they have 1 other powerful champion, so a direct damage nerf is certainly a good option too. A good end result would be that firecav take more losses in more situations, and are not as game-ending when fully massed.

Edited February 6, 2022 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[Nullus]

52 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

less fire damage to strong and important structures like cc, fort (give those structures 2x as much fire resistance)

Another idea would be to give organic units immunity against fire, plus a reduction in the ordinary damage from the cavalry. That could make them a more specialised unit, strong against structures, but weaker against armies.

[LetswaveaBook]

3 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

• range reduction

The Iberian champion cavalry is a fast unit that can overpower its opponents. Walking a few extra meters won't really keep if from victimizing units. I would guess that part of the fun of using a mobile unit is using its mobility. So making it clumsy to use does make that feel less fun.

3 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

• accuracy reduction

Currently it has a spread of 1.6, whereas CS archers have 2.5, slingers have 3 and javelineers have 4. The Iber champ cav attacks units at short range resulting in that it does not miss a lot even if it has bad accuracy. We could make its accuracy really bad, but that would look ridiculous. We shouldn't make the game look ridiculous just for balance changes.

3 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

• less fire damage to strong and important structures like cc, fort (give those structures 2x as much fire resistance)

For forts it is ridiculous fire cav can destroy them so easily. For CCs, I would say isn't it meant to be a unit that specializes in taking out buildings. For me part of the problem is also that Indibil makes the unit so cheap and with the fire damage it can also take out armies easily

 

3 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

reduce pierce armor by 1

If you reduce armor, then it will not weaken the unit in the cases where it isn't hit at all. Therefor I think reducing attack is better.

 

Currently you throw the flaming javelin and 6 seconds later the building has received 6 fire damage. If multiple Javelins are being thrown, then all the fire damage is taken within 6 seconds. I wonder how that simulates fire. Also it is unclear to me how the current option couldn't be seen as just another form of anti-building damage such as crush.

What I might find an appealing option is to change the way fire damage works. Instead of stacking fire damage we could use the extend option. So every flaming javelin deals for 0.12 seconds 1 damage every 0.02 second (or maybe 0.04 is better). So in 1 second, 50 intervals fit. If the building is hit by more that 9 javelins per second, then the fire gets extended duration.

For example we want to deal 2400 fire damage to a building with 25 fire cav units. Then we require 400 javelins or 16 javelins per unit. After 20 seconds, enough javelins have been thrown at the building to build up enough fire. However as fire damage is capped at 50 per second, it takes in total 48 seconds for the building to completely take the 2400 damage.

Adding more fire cav in that situation would not increase the speed at which the building burns down, it is just allows to throw all the required javelins earlier. It would simulate fire better where you can view extended damage as buildings being set ablaze.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Perhaps indibil should make +25% train time instead of -25%

that way caping production buildings could stop it.

another thing could be to change indibil from percentage cost reduction to reduction of a set amount of resources. For example “20 wood less” or “10 metal less”.

since champs and cav cost more, the bonus scales with them better.

[LetswaveaBook]

I am updating the mod this weekend so some things I want to add team bonusses:

Athens: Theatres cost -40%

Brits: First healer is free, other healers are 20% cheaper.

Cart: Markets are 40% cheaper and first land trader is free.

Iber: skirmishers and slingers cost -10% food.

Mace: barter bonus is now a civ bonus and gives only 15% better prices. Their new team bonus is siege +10% range and -20% train time.

Persians: stables are 20% cheaper and stable techs are researched in half the time. Their cavalry carries double meat.

 

 

 

Generic changes affecting team bonusses

Theatres: CCs have 20% cheaper techs and -50% research time.

Catapults have a small splash damage and their accuracy is improved a little. Their damage is increased to 225 crush and their splash damage is 150 crush, enough to 1 hit KO basic ranged infantry. Demetrius now gives also higher splash damage.

The siege damage tech now gives also 25% more crush splash damage.

Bolt shooters now have building AI, possibly improving their performance

CCs are 10% cheaper and 10% less build time (affects sele team bonus)

2nd tier blacksmith upgrades is now available in p2 (affects gaul team bonus)

 

I think especially the 2nd tier blacksmith upgrades in p2 really make it interesting to chose between getting p3 asap or preparing a major p2 attack.

 

Furthermore

Continental slingers civ bonus for Iberians and Gauls: Slingers cost -10 stone but have -1 pierce and -0.1 crush attack

 

I also fixed some bugs from the previous version.

 

Any further ideas? I personally like suggestions that are moderate changes but I will be happy to read any suggestions.

 

Also it might be a nice idea to give some factions a civ bonus "unarmored warriors" that gives spearman +10% speed but -2 less hack armor. These factions can research a (possibly free) technology called body armor giving their spearmen normal speed and hack armor.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@LetswaveaBook nice work! 

I think you handled the iber bonus well, with both slingers and javelins being potential economic units. I also like the general team bonuses, blacksmith changes and splash. Very exciting stuff. 

Is the 1 free unit given for each new market or temple? or only once per game?

Depending on how healers are treated in future alphas this might not be very powerful for britons. I had suggested a team bonus for britons on the team bonus page just yesterday: men have equal berry gather rate as women. To be honest I don't mind adding more than one team bonus per civ if the overall value is right.

1 hour ago, LetswaveaBook said:

Also it might be a nice idea to give some factions a civ bonus "unarmored warriors" that gives spearman +10% speed but -2 less hack armor. These factions can research a (possibly free) technology called body armor giving their spearmen normal speed and hack armor.

These should probably given to civs that don't have spearmen as their only cs melee unit. Or maybe it should be given to civs that have pikes as the only CS alternative to spearmen.

[Yekaterina]

@LetswaveaBook I personally haven't found Merc sword cav particularly OP after min 13, so a good solution is move them to P3. Then we don't need to think about cost NERF or attack NERF.

 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@Yekaterina It is true that swordcav are most OP in phase 2, before players are able to retrain CS infantry due to their lack of food/wood stockpiles that they would accrue in p3, and also due to the massive economic damage that idle unit time in p2 creates.

It would require a change in strategy (fast p3) that would make them not worse, but harder to execute. That being said, there is a hero that gives +30% attack to melee cav units in p3.

I think moving them to p3 would make the unit boring again, and leave carthage to be a very weak civ in p2. The main place I draw the line with their power is being able to beat spearmen 1 to 1 with equal upgrades. If the unit is threatened by CS spearcav and spearmen (as it is in letswave mod), I think a prepared defense vs cav using palisades to control movement would be enough to make them manageable in p2 and p3.

A price hike on the unit would be fair to make it proportional to CS inf/cav cost difference. This price hike will also make inf mercs more viable. 

I would like to test the updated mod sooner or later too!

Edited February 14, 2022 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[chrstgtr]

On 31/01/2022 at 1:47 PM, Emperior said:

I don't know whats wrong with all balancing people who think that giving any unit rank two, especially for a small fee will help or make them just unique. SImply making op civ. Let's take current merc cavlary, what kind of outcome you got there? OP unit. Skiritai were strong in a23, then someone decided to debuff them and again one more time lets buff them due being weak civ. Good tactic: rush p2, get upgrades, rush another player. Player usually dies as skiritai from start has better dmg, better hp, etc. basically even if enemy do upgrades of p2, still will have weaker units. More eco damage.

Every unit should cost more of metal, 200+, then metal on the map should be reduced especially the one in the area of cc's. Basically reduce amount of spawned resources, except trees. Starting res of metal should be 2k rather than 5k. People should be forced to make more cc's or actually use traders.

 

Didn't play your mod, just quick tip while balancing as many forgets about rank 2 being just unfair. RANK 2 units should be allowed to build any buildings or do any eco. They are buffed to the max and mostly these are the mercenaries (hired to do specific job, not to do your eco or building ur stuff)

There's a lot right here. But the just because a unit is rank 2 doesn't automatically make it OP. For example, look at skiratai. They're rank 3 and not OP in this alpha. I think this clearly means that the problem with mercs is their cost. Mercs cost only one res (super easy eco management) and total res cost is less than comparable unit. To the extent cav mercs are better than inf mercs, that is a function of the underlying cav/inf balance. This is a cav alpha and it is still an option question on whether that is desirable.  

[LetswaveaBook]

6 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

I personally haven't found Merc sword cav particularly OP after min 13, so a good solution is move them to P3. Then we don't need to think about cost NERF or attack NERF.

In a24 there was the experience in war tech that promoted your mercenaries. In A25 the tech is auto-researched in p2.

The auto researching is also part of the problem. You could limit the expertise in war to p3 and then still allow weaker mercs in p2.

56 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

This is a cav alpha and it is still an option question on whether that is desirable.  

If this was a cav alpha, then gallic CS cav would be a potent force. In a cav alpha, Britons would also have all the tools to shine. The Briton and Gallic CS cav are well balanced IMHO.

A24 is more like a  merc cav/special champ cav alpha. We also have Indibil that makes CS jav cav super affordable with their team bonus. If you would take these 3 things away then A25 does no longer seem like a cav alpha.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Yes i think merc cav need a price nerf. If a inf merc is 60, a cav merc should be at least 90 IMO. A 20 metal difference is negligible is compared to the benefits of cavalry over inf. Think about how succesful infantry mercenaries are compared to merc cav. I would say mercenary inf is in a good state right now, mostly used as anti-ram, or supplementary units for your main army. I think with the price change and the appropriate spearcav and melee inf adjustments, and with acceleration taken into account, merc cav will be nerfed enough.

Also, an indibil nerf may be enough to nerf firecav. the train time and cost reduction is nuts. Definitly should limited to only be infantry, or only CS units.

Edited February 14, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Yekaterina]

2 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I think moving them to p3 would make the unit boring again, and leave carthage to be a very weak civ in p2

We can still permit training of infantry mercenaries in P2. To be honest I find spear cav mercenaries no less OP, so all cav mercs should be moved to P3. 

The sword cavs are very effective at saving yourself when something goes wrong in a big fight, e.g. some rams got close to your cc. 

[Dizaka]

On 03/02/2022 at 1:43 PM, LetswaveaBook said:

I think it might be more fun if it added extra range to ranged siege weapons rather than cost.

Be careful with this.  Macedonians I believe already get a siege range bonus from siege hero.  It's a range bonus for ranged siege units and a dmg bonus.  Must be in hero's range.

I really think this civ should have p2 siege shops and maybe siege towers in p2.  Since siege towers cost a lot of metal it means no p3 for macedonians or severely delayed.

By p2 most civs have either sword infantry or cav.  Would also force more spearmen to be built rather than skrimishers to army diversity.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Dizaka

[LetswaveaBook]

 

I differentiated the following factions in V3:

Athenians: Can now reasearch economic technologies for 50% less metal. Coupled with the extra metal mining speed this encourages players to use p2 earlier than other factions.

Gauls; Can now train fanatics for -20 metal in 15 seconds. This should allow fanatic rushes to be more succesful. Also the slinger becomes available in p2 in the CC, which means that if you go to p2 early without barrack, you can use that precious stone to train infantry (slingers). In addition to that, slingers cost -10 stone for gauls, but have -1 pierce and -0.1 crush.

Iberians: Slinger in p2 cost -10 stone, but have -1 pierce and -0.1 crush. The fire damage of their champ cav is now changed. When building are attacked by a group of fire cav, they now "burn" for a while. Their team bonus is also changed.

Kushites: Can build small pyramids for 150 stone in p1 and have 50 meter aura. This makes their eco unique.

Mauryans: Can build pillars in p2. Pillars reduce the research time of nearby structures by 50%.

Persians: Can now train spear cavalry in p1 at the CC as well as jav cav. Persian cavalry should now carry 40 resources. Their skirmishers cost -20 wood and have -20% attack. Having access to the skirmisher is an now a bigger advantage for the boom, encouraging Persians to reach p2 earlier. Their CS melee cav and archer cav is now better(see below) also encouraging p2 play more. It also creates a quantity of quality approach for Persian infantry. Their team bonus now makes stables cheaper and the stable techs are produced faster.

Romans: Can open/close the doors of Janus in the temple. When closed the temple has no additional aura. When opened Infantry trains 20% faster and need -20% experience for promotion but they gather resources 20% slower.

Spartans: Skiritai are now rank 2 but move 30% faster. I am curious to see if faster speed is more fun than bare strength.

 

I also added some team bonusses, since Athens, Britons, Carthaginians and Persians have team bonusses with little impact. Whereas Iberians and Macedon have team bonusses that are considered to be broken.

Athens: Theatres cost -40%

Brits: First healer is free, other healers are 20% cheaper.

Cart: Markets are 40% cheaper and first land trader is free.

Iber: skirmishers and slingers cost -10% food.

Mace: barter bonus is now a civ bonus and gives only 15% better prices. Their new team bonus is siege +10% range and -20% train time.

Persians: stables are 20% cheaper and stable techs are researched in half the time. 

 

Generic changes affecting team bonusses

Theatres: CCs have 20% cheaper techs and -50% research time.

Catapults have a small splash damage and their accuracy is improved a little. Their damage is increased to 225 crush and their splash damage is 150 crush, enough to 1 hit KO basic ranged infantry. Demetrius now gives also higher splash damage.

The siege damage tech now gives also 25% more crush splash damage.

Bolt shooters now have building AI, possibly improving their performance

CCs are 10% cheaper and 10% less build time (affects sele team bonus)

2nd tier blacksmith upgrades is now available in p2 (affects gaul team bonus)

 

 

Also I want to add a few minor balance changes

Ranged infantry changes

Archery tradition is 50% cheaper, but requires p2 (a net buff as nobody would do the tech in p1 anyway)

Iberian team bonus affects both slingers and skirmishers byt only reduces the food cost 10%.

Cavalry changes: Rome/Iber Champion cavalry nerf: Rome cav loses 2 pierce&hack armor, while Iber champ cav loses 9 pierce attack and when they attack buildings in a group, the building "burn" for a while instead of going down instantly.

Merc cav now cost 80 metal and 30 food.

Spear cav gets +1 hack/pierce armor and axe cav gets +2 hack and +1 pierce armor.

 

Promoting CS units from rank 2 to 3 now requires +50% XP

Melee infantry get +9.1% attack (NB This also affects the skiritai and fanatic).

 

** I think it is odd that sele is the only faction without a civ bonus and Ptol might need to be nerfed in some way.

ProposedFeaturesmodV3.zip

[LetswaveaBook]

55 minutes ago, Dizaka said:

Be careful with this.  Macedonians I believe already get a siege range bonus from siege hero.  It's a range bonus for ranged siege units and a dmg bonus.  Must be in hero's range.

I consider that hero to be weak. So a little buff to their ranged siege weapons might still be okay.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

5 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

Athens: Theatres cost -40%

Brits: First healer is free, other healers are 20% cheaper.

Cart: Markets are 40% cheaper and first land trader is free.

Iber: skirmishers and slingers cost -10% food.

Mace: barter bonus is now a civ bonus and gives only 15% better prices. Their new team bonus is siege +10% range and -20% train time.

Persians: stables are 20% cheaper and stable techs are researched in half the time. 

Athens: Theatres cost -40% 

< it seems counterintuitive to build a theatre just for a discount on 3-5 techs, also only a few civs have theatres. Also it seems kind of cheap to use it just to get to p3 faster. In other words its uninteresting>

<i think making metal buff the team bonus and cheaper eco techs should be the civ bonus>

<here is another idea: For Athen's team: UNIQUE CIV buildings are cheaper and build faster (ie pyramids for kush, champ buildings, temple of vesta, Lighthouse, iber monument, etc. not wonders)>

Let me know if either of those sounds good to anyone, it might be good to also include a technology discount for unique buildings.

 

Brits: First healer is free, other healers are 20% cheaper. 

<Ambush tactics: bonus to Melee inf walk speed???????? could be epic.>

Cart: Markets are 40% cheaper and first land trader is free. 

<Mecenaries for hire: Merc discount (5 metal, not percent) and mercs can train from the market and from docks>

Iber: skirmishers and slingers cost -10% food. good change 

Mace: barter bonus is now a civ bonus and gives only 15% better prices. Their new team bonus is siege +10% range and -20% train time.

<Range buff could be too cheesy with demitrius, demitrius is really powerful atm for mass siege towers which is cheesy already, imagine mass bolts with all the extra range. I think it should be -25% cost -20% train time.>

Persians: stables are 20% cheaper and stable techs are researched in half the time.  

 

 

The bold ideas are ones I just thought of, I thought they are cool but let me know what you think. My guess was if merc cav are nerfed, we could still retain carth as a merc civ with this discount.