proposed features mod

[LetswaveaBook]

I think we need to try some opportunities for differentiating civs. I recently made a mod change gameplay as a whole, but a more conservative approach would be to only differentiate a few factions. Also since gameplay mainly stays the same, people do not need to adapt as much to the new settings to enjoy the game.

I differentiated the following factions:

Athenians: Can now reasearch economic technologies for 50% less metal. Coupled with the extra metal mining speed this encourages players to use p2 earlier than other factions.

Gauls; Can now train fanatics for -20 metal in 15 seconds. This should allow fanatic rushes to be more succesful. Also the slinger becomes available in p2 in the CC, which means that if you go to p2 early without barrack, you can use that precious stone to train infantry (slingers).

Kushites: Can build small pyramids for 150 stone in p1 and have 50 meter aura. This makes their eco unique.

Mauryans: Can build pillars in p2. Pillars reduce the research time of nearby structures by 50%.

Persians: Can now train spear cavalry in p1 at the CC as well as jav cav. Their skirmishers cost -20 wood and have -20% attack. Having access to the skirmisher is an now a bigger advantage for the boom, encouraging Persians to reach p2 earlier. Their CS melee cav and archer cav is now better(see below) also encouraging p2 play more. It also creates a quantity of quality approach for Persian infantry.

Romans: Can open/close the doors of Janus in the temple. When closed the temple has no additional aura. When opened Infantry trains 20% faster and need -20% experience for promotion but they gather resources 20% slower.

Spartans: Skiritai are now rank 2 but move 30% faster. I am curious to see if faster speed is more fun than bare strength.

 

Also I want to add a few minor balance changes

Archer v skirms changes

Archery tradition is 50% cheaper, but requires p2 (a net buff as nobody would do the tech in p1 anyway)

Iberian team bonus only reduces the food cost of skirmishers by 10%.

Cavalry changes: Rome/Iber Champion cavalry nerf: Rome cav loses 2 pierce&hack armor, while Iber champ cav loses 9 pierce attack.

Merc cav now cost 95 metal.

Spear cav gets +1 hack/pierce armor and axe cav gets +2 hack and +1 pierce armor.

 

Promoting CS units from rank 2 to 3 now requires +50% XP

Melee infantry get +9.1% attack (NB This also affects the skiritai and fanatic).

 

ps: I also worked on another mod and posted at the forum earlier. However rest assured that I won't spam mod suggestions as I do not intend to make more than these two. For the other see https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/68779-expansiongameplay/?do=getNewComment

 

 

 

Proposed-featuresmodV2.zip

Edited January 29, 2022 by LetswaveaBook
reupload as non-integer loot seemed unacceptable

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I think almost all of these are very agreeable.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

I like almost all these changes. In particular I think buffing the melee inf attack is good, because it will help mitigate the same balance problem attack ground would address. I am sad to see the iber bonus get nerfed again, but I think it is for the best until other civs get good team bonuses. Champ horses upgrades are agreeable too. Skiri sound really fun now :D.

I can test this mod this weekend.

[LetswaveaBook]

By they way, if you downloaded the mod allready, I changed the aura range for the kushite pyramids. 

50 meter is what vali suggested earlier and adopting the changes make it in sinc. I think pyramids for this cost will be close to OP. However I am not against testing how good it is.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@LetswaveaBookI think it should take some planning and resource prioritization to make best use of pyramids, so restricting the radius sounds good.

[LetswaveaBook]

5 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I can test this mod this weekend.

I was also planning to try to host some team games.

5 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Skiri sound really fun now

Rank 2 swordsmen are very capable fighters especially if melee infantry gets an attack boost.  I am curious if it is balanced or whether they just run down any opposing infantry. At least Spartans lack a champion that boost the power of Skiritai.

[LetswaveaBook]

11 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I am sad to see the iber bonus get nerfed again, but I think it is for the best until other civs get good team bonuses

I think the different ranged units should ideally be well balanced. If the Iberian team bonus gives a major boost to skirmishers, then it upset the balance no matter how skirmishers are balanced. 

 

Currently skirmishers are a lot better than archers. Adding the Iberian bonus only adds insult to injury for the archer player.

In A24, skirmishers with the Iberian team bonus weren't awful. However it meant that having skirmishers was no fun without the Iberian team bonus.

[LetswaveaBook]

I had given merc cav non integer loot, which apparently cause a bug. Hence I reuploaded the file.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

It seems that skiritai can't rank to rank 3.  (latest mod V2)

[real_tabasco_sauce]

5 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

It seems that skiritai can't rank to rank 3.  (latest mod V2)

In the mod they are in the champion class, so they cannot rank. Maybe this was already the case before the mod, and the elite rank was just a visual anyway? I do think they should get to rank up to 3.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

On 28/01/2022 at 2:27 PM, LetswaveaBook said:

Can now reasearch economic technologies for 50% less metal. Coupled with the extra metal mining speed this encourages players to use p2 earlier than other factions.

That pretty much only saves the player 600 metal, since athens already mines faster, maybe this isn't super impactful. Perhaps also quicker research times for eco technologies? Practically, cheaper techs won't get ppl to p2 any faster, as usually only the wood and farm upgrades are needed (100 metal saved). 

[LetswaveaBook]

2 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

That pretty much only saves the player 600 metal, since athens already mines faster, maybe this isn't super impactful.

We have to see if it makes a difference. I don't want to hypothesize  to much, but timing is key. With cheaper techs, it is much more convenient to get the p2 eco techs early and I would guess if you reach p2 with more than 120 population, you should have advanced earlier to take earlier advantage of the eco techs.

9 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

It seems that skiritai can't rank to rank 3.  (latest mod V2)

Skiritai were champs in A23, in A24&A25 they are rank 3 troops. This results in the fact that there was only one skiritai model and promotions would ideally require another model. Fast moving rank 3 units would seem over the top.

On 28/01/2022 at 11:40 PM, LetswaveaBook said:

I think pyramids for this cost will be close to OP. However I am not against testing how good it is.

I played a TG and was next to akazid. My plan was to build 2 pyramids, mine 50 stone and then build a stable to go for cav in p1. My aim was to get the pyramids early so I would early get their benefits. I wanted to build one pyramid right from the start next to my CC to benefit the berry gatherers and the future farmer. I started to build a pyramid right at the start. The unit that build this pyramid was not working which meant my wood income was low. When I had build my house, I build a storehouse and started to place the second pyramid. All the time spent building pyramids meant I did not have the wood for militairy, which was very painful when dizika attacked me early. I think building pyramids at the start is not OP.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

5 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

Skiritai were champs in A23, in A24&A25 they are rank 3 troops. This results in the fact that there was only one skiritai model and promotions would ideally require another model. Fast moving rank 3 units would seem over the top.

Well, to be honest I was not exactly testing the unit. I had just come to the realization that mercs cost only 25 more metal and can go to rank 3, I am not sure how much it compares to the speed increase of skiritai. while testing with @real_tabasco_sauce I did notice that the speed made it much easier to wrap and overwhelm other armies.

[LetswaveaBook]

1 hour ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I did notice that the speed made it much easier to wrap and overwhelm other armies.

The idea was to allow the skiritai to bypass the opposing melee and strike for the ranged troops.

 

In that case melee woulnd't die first. Unless there are to few skiritai, in that case skiritai die first. From my tests you need 1 skiritai for every 1.5 skirmisher for it to be effective.

[Dizaka]

7 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

I played a TG and was next to akazid. My plan was to build 2 pyramids, mine 50 stone and then build a stable to go for cav in p1. My aim was to get the pyramids early so I would early get their benefits. I wanted to build one pyramid right from the start next to my CC to benefit the berry gatherers and the future farmer. I started to build a pyramid right at the start. The unit that build this pyramid was not working which meant my wood income was low. When I had build my house, I build a storehouse and started to place the second pyramid. All the time spent building pyramids meant I did not have the wood for militairy, which was very painful when dizika attacked me early. I think building pyramids at the start is not OP.

That explains how you played and why what happened happened that game.  Was surprised I was able to rush you with success and wasn't exactly sure what happened there even after watching replay.  This makes sense now.

My goal that game was go with p1 skrim cav then merc cav p2 because of merc cav cost and the assumption that I'm likely to get rushed by 1-2 players in under 5 min (So I need to be proactive rather than reactive).  I figured that the next best thing is being offensive during those minutes and segway into merc cav from there.  When I saw the amount of berries you had I was hugely worried.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Dizaka

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@LetswaveaBook from what you said it seems that the longer build time of pyramids makes their construction much less obvious than the 150 stone cost that people see initially. I think between the placement strategies, cost, and time to build, it should be a very interesting mechanic that can have ranges of success or failure.

[Effervescent]

On 29/01/2022 at 3:57 AM, LetswaveaBook said:

Mauryans: Can build pillars in p2. Pillars reduce the research time of nearby structures by 50%.

Hi,

I tested this in a game and I was unable to make pillar in phase 2 because the pillar needed hero to raise the limit from 0 to 5.

So basically, I had to train Ashoka to get pillar(p3), an to go overboard I trained chanakya and garrisoned it in blacksmith. The train time was op fast, almost exploit level. but the wait was not worth it.

It'll be good if we can make pillars without hero in town phase as proposed though.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

maybe hero should raise limit from 1 to 5? 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Currently, you can train each of your 3 heroes once, for a max of 3 hero "lives" per match.

I was wondering what people would think about having a max of 3 hero lives per match, but in any combination. So, if you want to train each one once, that's permitted. If you want to train one of the heroes 3 times in a row, then that's okay too. That way, a civ could be allowed to have more than 3 heroes available (say, 4 or 5 for some civs), but you could only train up to a max of 3 in a match.

[Radiotraining]

I would say yes! That is a good limit.

Also, I think is positive if there are, say, 5 heroes available but you can train only 3 X match. I think that having those limits increase the longevity of the game, because you're forced to make decisions and try different combinations each time 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I was wondering what people would think about having a max of 3 hero lives per match, but in any combination. So, if you want to train each one once, that's permitted. If you want to train one of the heroes 3 times in a row, then that's okay too. That way, a civ could be allowed to have more than 3 heroes available (say, 4 or 5 for some civs), but you could only train up to a max of 3 in a match.

I feel that this would mean people would just make the more op hero 3 times and not think about hero choice order.

For example. I like to use sele ele hero for fast ele + inf attack. When he dies I try to switch to cav and make cav hero. 

With this change you would see gaul players go: vercingetorix, vercingetorix, vercingetorix. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

8 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I feel that this would mean people would just make the more op hero 3 times and not think about hero choice order.

For example. I like to use sele ele hero for fast ele + inf attack. When he dies I try to switch to cav and make cav hero. 

With this change you would see gaul players go: vercingetorix, vercingetorix, vercingetorix. 

I agree. Perhaps it would be just enough to be able to train up to 3 heroes, but each one only once. Can still have more than 3 available heroes that way.

[LetswaveaBook]

13 hours ago, Effervescent said:

I tested this in a game and I was unable to make pillar in phase 2 because the pillar needed hero to raise the limit from 0 to 5.

 

Ah, that needs to be changed in the next version. However I won't upload versions to frequently, because that would also require people to download new version first.

 

[Emperior]

I don't know whats wrong with all balancing people who think that giving any unit rank two, especially for a small fee will help or make them just unique. SImply making op civ. Let's take current merc cavlary, what kind of outcome you got there? OP unit. Skiritai were strong in a23, then someone decided to debuff them and again one more time lets buff them due being weak civ. Good tactic: rush p2, get upgrades, rush another player. Player usually dies as skiritai from start has better dmg, better hp, etc. basically even if enemy do upgrades of p2, still will have weaker units. More eco damage.

Every unit should cost more of metal, 200+, then metal on the map should be reduced especially the one in the area of cc's. Basically reduce amount of spawned resources, except trees. Starting res of metal should be 2k rather than 5k. People should be forced to make more cc's or actually use traders.

 

Didn't play your mod, just quick tip while balancing as many forgets about rank 2 being just unfair. RANK 2 units should be allowed to build any buildings or do any eco. They are buffed to the max and mostly these are the mercenaries (hired to do specific job, not to do your eco or building ur stuff)

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@LetswaveaBook what are your thoughts on changing the team bonuses for civs in this mod. I suppose we could quickly think of some for britons, carthaginians, persians, and athenians. Perhaps also a replacement for Mace team bonus since that is busted.

Maybe +catapult splash dmg if it is possible?

Edited February 2, 2022 by BreakfastBurrito_007