===[TASK]=== Terrain and Map Overhaul (Milestone: Alpha 27)

[Radiotraining]

On 16/12/2021 at 10:33 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

 

Sometimes is still amazing the kind of things you can find in the internet!! A channel dedicated to biomes wow!

[maroder]

To continue the topic of what maps should be included in the game that has started here:

I have been going through the random maps folder again and would suggest:

remove: Sahel & Anatolian Plateau - they are basically biomes for Mainland.

remove: Atlas Mountains & African Plains       keep: Syria - they are very similar and the first two use eiher bad textures or they have a bad terrain painting/forest creation

remove Belgian Upland    keep: Rhine Marshlands  - Belgian Uplands is imo one of the unfairest maps and if you get a good seed it just looks like a biome of Rhine Marshlands, but still somehow worse.

merge: Arctic summer & Botswana Haven  - basically the same map with a different biome.

remove: India  - Basically Lake

remove: Sahel Water Holes - That's just Rivers

remove: Phoenician Levant - It's a square map and it is similar to northern lights

remove: Kerala - It is a mixture between Hycranian Shores and Hellas, which are imo better.

remove: Volcanic lands - Looks like a biome of African Plains & Syria and looks worse than Pompeii in terms of "volcano"

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After that I would make new categories to put the maps in that offer a unique experience but are optically not on the same level as the good maps or that are just too 'special'

I.e. 'Old maps' who are unique but should receive a texture update or have some other issue e.g.: Mediterranean - Latinum

'Arena maps' the very unnatural looking ones. e.g.: Snowflake Searocks ect.

_________________________________________

So with that being said, I would like to mention that "remove" does not mean they can never be played again. They can be put in a separate mode for people who really enjoy playing them.

Now a question to everybody: What is your opinion on this? Do you enjoy playing any of the maps I suggest for removal? Anybody any concerns regarding this?

[Radiotraining]

Haven't played all of them tbh.. or maybe not so recently to remember exactly. I got a little tear, however, with the idea of removing "water holes" .. I had quite some fun with that map!  I think is probably meant to be more for multiplayer than prettyness.

Volcano also is not bad.. is a very interesting variant compared to the rest to have. I think is good to have it as a option. 

But these two are just my opinion. Do what is best. 

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Yeah, I may be interested in a remake of older maps I could maybe help a bit 

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Quality over Quantity when it comes to maps, IMHO.

[maroder]

When reading through the old thread most people seem to agree that a cleanup would be good. Just didn't happen yet.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 minute ago, maroder said:

When reading through the old thread most people seem to agree that a cleanup would be good. Just didn't happen yet.

I have all kinds of ideas when it comes to organizing random maps and how they should work, but there are a few key members who disagree (or who will likely disagree), so a simple "cleanup" is probably all that can be done for now.

[Stan`]

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4127

[Lion.Kanzen]

50 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Quality over Quantity when it comes to maps, IMHO.

as long as you remove what is horrible (aesthetic), that will be fine.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, maroder said:

 Anatolian Plateau - they are basically biomes for Mainland.

It's the worst, it's the most boring map.

You have to fill some maps with eyecandy, or things to do.

We need a gold rush map.

I like the new AoE IV maps and the AoM ones.

And the exotics from AoE III.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

for example Lipany.

forests in a valley with mountains around.

 

 

[maroder]

1 hour ago, Stan` said:

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4127

I mean if people feel that strongly that nothing should ever be removed ok , but then at least moving the bad maps under a separate tag/  folder should be done.

It just doesn't make sense to have a wild mix of high quality and mediocre maps. That kind of choice is super confusing and will give new players a bad impression of the game.

[Radiotraining]

2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Quality over Quantity when it comes to maps, IMHO.

Hey! I'm on the same side, noticing the big improvement of newer maps and the need for those, so I agree with the statement. 

BUT. If we're talking about maps, assuring some quantity is also key to allow longevity for the game! Just sayin'. 

I don't mind the current numbers, but I agree that some can be discarded or re-made. But let's not commit the mistake in the other sense of not leaving enough

5 minutes ago, maroder said:

I mean if people feel that strongly that nothing should ever be removed ok , but then at least moving the bad maps under a separate tag/  folder should be done.

It just doesn't make sense to have a wild mix of high quality and mediocre maps. That kind of choice is super confusing and will give new players a bad impression of the game.

Well.. that sounds like a sensible approach anyway 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I'm pretty much down with removing all of the scenario maps, except for a few. I made about 95% of them back in the day and have since converted the best ones to skirmish maps. Haven't touched the scenario maps in years and they're about to be deprecated by biome/terrain texture changes.

[Lion.Kanzen]

28 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I'm pretty much down with removing all of the scenario maps, except for a few. I made about 95% of them back in the day and have since converted the best ones to skirmish maps. Haven't touched the scenario maps in years and they're about to be deprecated by biome/terrain texture changes.

The scenarios are good for triggers. Mission-challenge based scenario.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Just now, Lion.Kanzen said:

The scenarios are good for triggers. Mission-challenge based scenario.

I agree, or very specific historical situations or, err, "scenarios."  A lot of the scenarios right now are rather arbitrarily designed (at the time we didn't have skirmish maps).

But they need well-thought out and well-designed. Right now, attention is elsewhere, but it's best to not bog down the game with too many mediocre and deprecated options. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

13 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

But they need well-thought out and well-designed. Right now, attention is elsewhere, but it's best to not bog down the game with too many mediocre and deprecated options. 

There are things that are changing.

Those scenarios were helpful in the early alphas.

Unused maps or ( or outdated) should go to community maps.

[Lion.Kanzen]

AoE III DE have good examples, the better examples for 0AD.

[hyperion]

On 02/02/2022 at 10:43 AM, maroder said:

It just doesn't make sense to have a wild mix of high quality and mediocre maps. That kind of choice is super confusing and will give new players a bad impression of the game.

Only the default map really matters, haven't seen playing anyone anything beside acropolis bay first, which also means basically any review will be done using that map.

[maroder]

54 minutes ago, hyperion said:

Only the default map really matters, haven't seen playing anyone anything beside acropolis bay first, which also means basically any review will be done using that map.

Agreed that everybody starts with Acropolis bay, but if you have played that one and then want to try another one which looks bad in comparison you still get a worse impression of the game.

[Stan`]

5 hours ago, hyperion said:

Only the default map really matters, haven't seen playing anyone anything beside acropolis bay first, which also means basically any review will be done using that map.

At least now it's revamped.

[hyperion]

9 hours ago, maroder said:

Agreed that everybody starts with Acropolis bay, but if you have played that one and then want to try another one which looks bad in comparison you still get a worse impression of the game.

If a user has to change the default filter to something like old maps or testing maps to see the lower quality ones, I see no risk of the above being the case.

There might indeed be little value of keeping them but the argument made against removal on the patch is reasonable enough for me given there is no harm.

 

4 hours ago, Stan` said:

At least now it's revamped.

There was something off with the textures, glad if it was fixed. Still might be worth bringing up the discussion of which should be the default be. Always felt Acropolis Bay might not be the ideal choice for an "ad".

[Lion.Kanzen]

In Spanish the default map is Corinthian isthmus.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

In Spanish the default map is Corinthian isthmus.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, hyperion said:

There was something off with the textures, glad if it was fixed. Still might be worth bringing up the discussion of which should be the default be. Always felt Acropolis Bay might not be the ideal choice for an "ad".

We used to have the option in the GUI code to designate a "default" map. I believe it was deprecated. Maybe we can bring it back, due to issues like this:

 

Quote

In Spanish the default map is Corinthian isthmus.

 

[maroder]

2 hours ago, hyperion said:

If a user has to change the default filter to something like old maps or testing maps to see the lower quality ones, I see no risk of the above being the case.

There might indeed be little value of keeping them but the argument made against removal on the patch is reasonable enough for me given there is no harm.

Generally I agree moving them to a filter may be enough. But for the sake of the argument itself:

quality over quantity. related:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_fatigue

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overchoice

 

Edited April 23, 2022 by maroder