Popular Post Edwarf Posted March 12, 2021 Popular Post Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 Hello ! I have seen plenty of feedback and complain about A24. So I will share with you my personal feedback, I hope it will be constructive and maybe help some people to understand the new Alpha. Some point can be redundant with other feedbacks; I just want to be exhaustive (As much as I can), I don’t want to insist on any point. Civilizations strength and weakness : Athenians: A23 : Used to be a strong civilization due to Strong slingers, very good hero Iphicrates (+3 overall resistances) and black cloak for siege sniping and raiding. A24 : Seems a bit weaker due to weaker slingers, hero permanent death and no more black cloaks. Strength: Stronger building +10% metal gather rate per phase Iphicrates Slingers for low wood map Archer champions Weakness: All ranged infantry are based on minerals (stone/metal). Sword infantry trainable only in docks. -> Athenians weaker in A24 than in A23 (It’s OK, they were too strong) Britons : A23: Top 3 civilization, strong economic bonuses (population space on every building/building faster to build/rotary mill), decent hero, strong early slingers rushes. A24: Better balance, small economic bonus with building faster to build, Dog phase 1 strong for rushes (can easily deny all food income of your enemy), decent hero. Strength: Faster building Dogs Rushes (Good micro mandatory) Weakness: Weaker building Only rams as siege weapon -> Britons weaker in A24 than in A23 but still decent, harder to play, not a beginner civilization anymore. Carthaginians: A23 : Decent civilization, strong cavalry, very strong hero, variety of siege weapon make them adaptable to situations. A24 : Strong civilization, very strong hero, Strong archer, variety of siege weapon make them adaptable to situations. Very good team play: Hannibal Barca + international trade bonuses. Strength: Cheaper docks Strong hero International trade bonuses Massive Stone Walls (good option now due to floating stone) Apartment Weakness: Swordsman only as mercenaries -> Carthaginians stronger in A24 than in A23. Well balanced now. Gauls: A23: Top 3 civilizations, strong economic bonuses (population space on every building/building faster to build/rotary mill), strong heros and fanatic strong for raids. A24: Decent civilization, economic bonuses (building faster to build/extra food upgrade).Very strong power spike at phase 2 due to extra damage on sword cavalry en cheaper fanatic. New champions, Heroes easier to reach. (Cheaper stable and barracks.) Strength: Building faster to build Extra food upgrade phase 2, helps for the sword cavalry spam. Strong Heroes Strong melee cavalry (+15% damage) Strong team bonus Weakness: Only rams has siege weapon Weaker buildings -> Gauls weaker in A24 than in A23 but still decent. Harder to play, not a beginner civilization anymore. Iberians: A23: decent civilization mostly played for its team bonus, decent hero. Very defensive civilization. A24: decent civilization weaker team bonus, decent hero, Strong cavalry champions. Strength: Good hero Very strong champion cavalry (fire damage) Extra sword upgrade Revered Monument Massive towers Starting walls Very strong fire ship Weakness: No economic bonuses Only rams as siege weapon (Ok there is champion cavalry) No counter to melee cavalry phase 1 -> Iberians are stronger in A24 than in A23, They are more independent and don’t need to rely only on their allies. Kushites: A23: Worst civilization, even with decent heroes, economic bonuses (pyramids). Team bonus not useful due to weak elephants. Weak unique mercenaries, costly rank 3 healers. A24: Strong civilization, Decent heroes Economic bonuses (pyramid). Strong team bonus, Strong unique mercenaries, free rank 3 upgrade healer. Strong unique Axeman champions. Strength: Small Pyramid (+15% gather speed) Large Pyramid (+10% damge +1 resistance) Rank 3 healers Stronger rams Mercenaries maceman Champion Axeman Decent Heroes Archery tradition (+10 attack range for archers) Weakness: None -> Kushites are way stronger in A24 than in A23, many gameplay possibilities. Macedonians: A23: One of the worst civilizations no swords, no spears, useless heroes, no economic bonuses. A24: A bit better thanks to champion swordsman, New champion crossbowman (a bit weak can’t be spammed due to massive overkill) Strength: Phase 1 spear cavalry Variety of siege weapons Hellenistic Metropolis (Civic center +100% Health points) Stronger buildings Weakness: No economic bonuses No spear infantry (except champions) -> Macedonians Slightly stronger in A24 than in A23 but remain as a bad civilization Mauryas : A23 : Decent civilization (Very strong in nomad games), Heroes a bit weak, economic bonuses (Elephant worker), +10% population limit, only elephant as siege weapon (except expensive champions maceman and tricky rams) A24 : Very strong civilization, Heroes still weak, economic bonuses (Elephant worker), +10% population limit, Strong unique champion maceman, Strong Archer chapions, Strong elephant archer, Indian siege elephant, access to rams.(cheaper barracks/stable) Strength: Elephant Workers +10% population limit Elephant faster to recruit Indian Siege Elephant Extra Sword upgrade Archery tradition Unique Champion Maceman Strong archer champions (poison damage) Strong archer elephants Cheap Walls Weakness: None -> Mauryas are stronger in A24 than in A23 Persians: A23: Good civilization, slow start and very strong late game. Extra population limit, over powered cavalry, no economic bonuses, Average heroes, strong rams. Apadana (resources trickle) A24: Strong civilization, balanced cavalry, extra population limit, double conscription, strong rams, Indian elephants. Apadana (resources trickle), average hero, huge trading bonus. Strength: +10% population limit Archery Tradition Double conscription Indian Elephants Strong Rams Apadana (Resources trickle 1food + 1wood +0.75stone +0.75metal/seconds) +25% trade gain Weakness: No early economic bonus -> Persians have a stronger start and weaker late game in A24 than in A23. Civilization way better balanced than in A23. Ptolemies: A23: Top 3 civilization, economic bonus (free buildings), good team bonus, Strong heroes, strong army compositions, large variety of siege weapons. Very strong navy: Lighthouse, Juggernaut. Camel Archer Phase 1. A24: Very strong civilization, economic bonus (cheaper buildings), good team bonus Strong Heroes, strong army compositions, large variety of siege weapons. Camel Archer Phase 1. Standard navy. Strength: Cheaper buildings (-40% cost for house, corral, storehouse and farmstead) Strong heroes (and in Civic Center) Variety of siege weapons Stronger Bolt Shooter (faster less overkill) Library Hellenistic Metropolis Military Colony Camel archer at phase 1. Weakness: Swordsman only as mercenaries All ranged infantry are based on minerals (stone/metal). Spear unit only as mercenaries -> Ptolemies are slightly weaker in A24 than in A23. A bit better balanced but still very strong. Romans: A23: Strong civilization, good heroes, good team bonus, strong siege, very strong military camps, spear cavalry phase 1. No palisade and no economic bonuses. A24: Decent civilization, good heroes, good team bonus, strong siege, weaker military camps, spear cavalry phase 1. Now they have palisade Phase 1. No economic bonuses. Strength: Castra (Army camp) Strong heroes Strong siege Good team bonus Spear cavalry phase 1 Weakness: No economic bonus -> Romans are weaker in A24 than in A23. (It would have been great to have other kind of unit in castra than only melee) Seleucids: A23: Decent civilization, medium heroes, variety of siege units, good army compositions. No economic bonuses. A24: Decent civilization, medium heroes, variety of siege units, good army compositions. No economic bonuses.(no change overall) Strength: Free champion infantry upgrade Military Colony Hellenistic Metropolis Variety of siege units Good army compositions Weakness: No economic bonus -> Seleucids remain a decent civilization in A24. Better balance overall now. Spartans: A23: Good civilization, good heroes, strong women, skiritai and black cloaks phase 2 (huge power spike phase 2),the Agoge (+25% health to spear units). No economic bonus and population limit penalty (-10%) A24: Medium civilization, good heroes, strong women, no more population limit penalty. No more black cloaks and skiritai 25% more expensive. No economic bonus. Strength: Good Heroes Strong women (stronger than javelineer with loom) Stronger buildings Weakness: No economic bonus Only rams has siege weapon -> Spartans weaker in A24 than in A23. The change on the skiritai is a bit too much in my opinion. Overall balance: Lack of Metal: The current overall metal cost is fine for 1v1 when you have access to several metal mine. Contrariwise for team games 90% of the time you only have access to your starting mine (so 5000 metal). Economic upgrades: 1600 Metal Wood = 600 Metal Food = 600 Metal Stone ~ 200 Metal (1 or 2 upgrade, more is useless cause not enough mines) Metal ~ 200 Metal (1 or 2 upgrade, more is useless cause not enough mines) Forge upgrades : 4000 Metal Melee = 1000 Metal Range = 1000 Metal Hack = 1000 Metal Pierce = 1000 Metal Other upgrades : 5350 Metal Cartography = 100 Metal Cavalry = 350 Metal Will to fight = 1500 Metal Towers = 1000 Metal Siege = 1100 Metal Temple = 750(+600)Metal Trade = 550 Metal Buildings: 700 Metal Civic Center / Military Colony = 500 / 200 Metal Hero Building = 200 Metal Units: Hero = 400/350/300/200/150 Metal Champions = 100/80 Metal Mercenaries = 60/80 Metal Siege = 150/180/250/220 Metal Trader = 80 Metal -> Just for economic and basic forge upgrade you don’t have enough metal on your starting mines. New forge upgrades: They are way better than it used to be. Having same upgrade for infantry and cavalry allow a faster adaptation to your opponent composition. For example, your enemy is going full archer then just go melee cavalry to clean is army. A bit too expensive. Due to the lack of metal. Mercenaries: Very expensive due to the lack of metal. (only 80 resources but all resources don’t have the same cost) Similar strength as standard units but doesn’t gather resources. Costly Rank 2 upgrade. (they should be rank 2 by default and upgrade for rank 3) Faster to train -> Expensive unit for panic situations. Never used technologies and building: Theatron: currently way too expensive a barrack on the border is the same and at least it produces units. Outpost: useless in A24 Naval Shipyard: Units repairing ships are better and less expensive. Edict Pillar of Ashoka: hard to reach, expensive, not very useful because buildable only on own territory. Monumental Architecture: too expensive for a bonus/penalty upgrade. Persian Architecture: way better than Monumental Architecture but still an bonus/penalty upgrade. Spying technologies: 500 food + 500 metal + 600 metal is way too much expensive. A standard cavalry do better it cost only 150 resources and it can fight. Ranged Infantry Balance: Without any micro archers are stronger than javelineers and slingers Bigger range makes units easier to micro Weaker units (less Health Points) makes ranged unit even stronger. -> Archer units are too strong. Maybe give back the A23 statistics to the slingers and give 2 or 3 standard pierce resistance to the javelineers making them stronger against ranged units and still weak against melee.(like this all 3 ranged infantry are unique) Catapults: Catapult are way weaker than they used to be in A23, they are useless against units (which is great) they are easily destroyed by archers, they deal very few damage. However they are a bit too expensive : they are more expensive than rams and elephants. I suggest to reduce their resources price and also the population cost, 3 is too much currently 2 might be better. “Turtling”: The consequence of many change made turtling (staying on your base waiting your opponent to suicide on your defence) too strong. Building are way more deadlier than they used to be. Demography: Hard to keep a high population: Units have less Health points. (impact the overall balance) Units are longer to train. -> HP bonus per phase was nice. Miscellaneous: Slingers now use their ranged weapon to attack wolves! Ambriorix now is worth it ! No more penalty it’s great ! Hero permanent death, it will be fixed on A25 apparently. (Am I right?) Units turning : It avoid dancing abuse, which is good, but maybe the better ranged accuracy was enough. Slow down the game. Retreat is now similar to suicide. Trading ships : They are clumsy, they can’t be spamed. The trader garrison bonus is not enough. A trader + a merchantman should carry the same amout of resources between two docks as a merchantman with a trader garrisoned. Wonders: Doing the population limit bonus as a percentage is really great. Celtic population bonus in every building was too strong but it was a great to have. Instead of removing it completely reducing it would have been nice. Bugs : DDOS: Finishing a game is really rare. (balance issue is nothing compared to this) Lags: currently the game lags way too much making it not very enjoyable to play. (I wonder if a smart person can make a “cubic” mod to replace all 3D design/texture/animation by cubic shaped volumes without animation with mono coloured texture. To reduce lags) Graphical issues example: destroying animation of mauryan barracks is broken, half of the walls disappear. Pathfinding issues : Units are clumsy Units disobey Units have their own will Units auto focus : Units are automatically focusing palisade, field and walls. This is game breaker your entire army can be killed because they hate fields. Example : Units don’t protect siege units when opponent ungarrison building because they are attacking field or palisade or walls. Also for ship, a shore fight between 2 ships, can be unbalanced by the presence of palisade on the shore. -> Unit should attack (capture aswell) buildings only if they are tasked to. Philip V doesn’t have full description on the learn to play panel. Rank 2 units in castra are not specified in the description. Rank 3 Healer in PR’IMN are not specified in the description. Wrong hero description for Caratacos in French. Personal feeling about the future: I have seen some proposition on the forum about gameplay “innovation” and I feel like it tend to copy similar RTS games such as Age of Empire 2. For exemple the food decay, the scout phase 1, cavalry not able to hunt anymore, stable, siege workshop... I am a bit sad about that, this game is wonderful and unique. It can be improved with real gameplay innovation such as regenerative fishes, trees and berries. There is no need to copy other archaic games. In the other hand lately Age of Empire tend to do the same and copy 0AD innovations: Soldier able to build Dock used as resources deposit Units can be garrisoned in houses -> I hope it is just a feeling. To conclude, in my opinion it is great that many issues has been discovered on this Alpha, it can’t be perfect the 1st time but it can always be improved. It is mostly the negative part pointed out but the work done is really great! Overall it is nice to play on this Alpha! Thank you everyone who contributed to this project! Post Scriptum : I have seen lots of complain about this Alpha but note that everybody has access to the next Alpha on SVN, you can test it and give your feedback before its release. 10 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 Great feedback. @borg- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg- Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 (edited) Really what I call a constructive criticism, thank you. I'm already working on some patches: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3677 Edited March 13, 2021 by borg- 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizaka Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 (edited) Just a few points I have that strongly vary from Edwarf: On 12/03/2021 at 4:38 PM, Edwarf said: Gauls: A23: Top 3 civilizations, strong economic bonuses (population space on every building/building faster to build/rotary mill), strong heros and fanatic strong for raids. Paired with Iberians is really powerful. A24: Decent civilization, economic bonuses (building faster to build/extra food upgrade).Very strong power spike at phase 2 due to extra damage on sword cavalry en cheaper fanatic. New champions, Heroes easier to reach. (Cheaper stable and barracks.) A strong civilization overall. Diversity of units in p2. Can do a good p3 push. The ability to produce rams, hero, and dmg reduction units at the same time is extremely valuable. Strength: Building faster to build Extra food upgrade phase 2, helps for the sword cavalry spam. Strong Heroes that do not require a fort Strong melee cavalry (+15% damage) Strong team bonus and dmg reduction battle units. Weakness: Only rams has siege weapon Weaker buildings -> Gauls weaker in A24 than in A23 but still decent. Harder to play, not a beginner civilization anymore. Macedonians: A23: One of the worst civilizations no swords, no spears, useless heroes, no economic bonuses. One of the few civilization that can do massive damage if played by the right player. Only civilization that could attack with 15-16 rams within 16/17 mins generally making it difficult to defend versus, especially versus Gauls, Seleucids, or any other skrimisher civ (e.g., rome, macedonianss, iberians, etc) that massed skirmishers with no anti siege. This civ paired with Iberians is extremely powerful as advancement to p3 is significantly faster. A24: A bit better thanks to champion swordsmanChanges to pikemen do not necessitate a need for swordsmen. New champion crossbowman (a bit weak can’t be spammed due to massive overkill). Uniqueness of this civilization completely lost in a24 as every civ now has the same siege ability. Possibility? Make siege workshop a p2 building that counts for p3 like ele stables for Maury. Strength: Phase 1 spear cavalry Variety of siege weapons Hellenistic Metropolis (Civic center +100% Health points) Stronger buildings Foot companions, like Ptolemic pikemen, kill rams. No need for sword or wasting metal on the newly available units anymore because of how game was revamped it's not a problem anymore. Weakness: No economic bonuses No spear infantry (except champions) Because of update there is a strong preference for pikemen in lieu of spear infantry. -> Macedonians Slightly stronger weaker in A24 than in A23. Not a viable civ currently and do not see other players play it in mutliplayer. Seleucids have about everything mace has plus more. but remain as a bad civilization Mauryas : A23 : Decent civilization (Very strong in nomad games) that can be played strong by a players such as 90/letsplay0ad who knows how to use cav to hunt food - can mass 20-30 cav by minute 9 and dominate most civs (but only with right player, otherwise extremely weak). Heroes a bit weak RELATIVE to other civilization heroes, economic bonuses (Elephant worker), +10% population limit, only elephant as siege weapon (except expensive champions maceman and tricky rams) A24 : Very strong civilization. Heroes still can be perceived as weak to most players. However, economic discount + speed and temple discount + speed heroes are extremely powerful in a games dependent on metal. Will to fight now only costs 1200 instead of the 1500 resources as for other civs. R2 upgrades in temple can cost 250 food instead of 1000 with the right setup, thanks to heroes, and temples can cost only 75 stone. Extremely powerful two heroes (priest/chariot) with other heroes and bonuses (elephant/trade hero) that, generally, are useless. Economic Construction bonuses (Elephant worker), +10% population limit, Strong unique champion maceman (Note: rarely used in multiplayer now. In the past good players could really turn games with these), Strong Archer chapions, Strong elephant archer, Indian siege elephant, access to rams.(cheaper barracks/stable) Strength: Elephant Workers bonus of +25% construction speed is ridiculously powerful (Not utilized by many players). +10% population limit is amazing due to Elephant siege population cost. Elephant faster to recruit Indian Siege Elephant Extra Sword upgrade Archery tradition Unique Champion Maceman Strong archer champions (poison damage) Strong archer elephants Cheap Walls 20% discount and 50% speed on all upgrades at wonder (population), fort (will to fight), and weaponsmith (damage/defense upgrades) as these buildings can be garrisoned by the priest hero. Up to 75% discount on temple upgrades if using hero and an ally is a Maury (e.g., r2 upgrade at temple can cost 250 food instead of 1000 food. That's huge.). Only civ other than Romans that has access to WOODEN cost walls. However, with strength of palisades this is a moot point. Weakness: Most players over-depend on archers. No pikemen but has spearmen. However, in a24 lack of pikemen is a serious disadvantage. Pikemen make Kush/Ptolemies/Carthage really powerful. None -> Mauryas are stronger in A24 than in A23 Ptolemies: A23: Top 3 civilization, economic bonus (free buildings), good team bonus, Strong heroes, strong army compositions, large variety of siege weapons. Very strong navy: Lighthouse, Juggernaut. Camel Archer Phase 1. Paired with Iberians and extremely powerful civilization. A24: Very strong civilization, economic bonus (cheaper buildings), good team bonus Strong Heroes, strong army compositions, large variety of siege weapons. Camel Archer Phase 1. Standard Extremely strong navy. Civ has the siege ships. This is extremely powerful and few civs have these ships. Strength: Cheaper buildings (-40% cost for house, corral, storehouse and farmstead) Strong heroes (and in Civic Center) Variety of siege weapons Stronger Bolt Shooter (faster less overkill) Library Hellenistic Metropolis Military Colony Camel archer at phase 1 Pikemen in a24 are a critical composition component of any army. These pikemen units can be buffed by a hero. These pikemen units can be also buffed by another hero if loss of pikeman hero. Weakness: Swordsman only as mercenaries All ranged infantry are based on minerals (stone/metal). Spear unit only as mercenaries -> Ptolemies are slightly weaker in A24 than in A23. A bit better balanced but still very strong. Romans: A23: Strong civilization, good heroes, good team bonus, strong siege, very strong military camps, spear cavalry phase 1. No palisade and no economic bonuses. Uses 'average units' like skrimishers/spear and when paired with Iberians can be really powerful. A24: Decent Weak civilization as it is a "siege civ" strongly dependent on aoe of siege. good heroes, good team bonus, strong siege, weaker military camps, spear cavalry phase 1. Now they have palisade Phase 1 and regular stone walls later on, in addition to wooden walls. No economic bonuses. Strength: Castra (Army camp) Strong heroes Strong siege Good team bonus Spear cavalry phase 1 Weakness: Castra no longer permit construction of siege (ranged or melee). A weakness of Romans, currently, is that castra is a weak structure that can be taken down with infantry. Currently, having an enemy castra near a cc is not even seen as a problem and the building is ignored. In the past, civs had to build outposts to secure their territory to make sure no castra was built and paid attention as it could turn games. No economic bonus -> Romans are weaker in A24 than in A23. (It would have been great to have other kind of unit in castra than only melee) Seleucids: A23: Decent civilization, medium heroes, variety of siege units, good army compositions. No economic bonuses. A24: Decent Strong civilization. Elephant dmg bonus hero is pretty powerful, however this hero is useless in late game. In general, the remaining heroes are medium heroes. Strong variety of siege units. Good army compositions. No economic bonuses.(no change overall) Strength: Free champion infantry upgrade Military Colony Hellenistic Metropolis Variety of siege units Good army compositions Archer cavalry is extremely powerful. Weakness: No economic bonus -> Seleucids remain a decent civilization in A24. Better balance overall now. Overall balance: Lack of Metal: This this this this this 100x. Catapults: Catapult are way weaker than they used to be in A23, they are useless against units (which is great horrible) they are easily destroyed by archers (this is great, but too easily destroyable which is horrible), they deal very few damage. Catapults should be dealing AOE damage to units. However, the requirement is that they need to be mircoed by the player. An alternative can exist where siege can be made to "select units over structures" if dmg vs players is smaller than in a23. Catapults always selected buildings over units and are useless in presence of buildings when not microed. However they are a bit too expensive : they are more expensive than rams and elephants. I suggest to reduce their resources price and also the population cost, 3 is too much currently 2 might be better. This could be an alternative to siege dmg vs units. That is, the left over population could be used to build units to counter siege. “Turtling”: This is a huge problem. After minute 18 if a game isn't decided it will be a 60+ minute game. In a23 typical game was 40 minutes. Palisades/Walls are a huge problem that enable turtling. Either add a special unit that kills walls/palisades only and is hard to kill or the ability for the game host to limit palisades. On the other hand, Palisades are necessary to surround each tower. Why are tower so easy to capture? It is crazy easy to capture towers now for some reason. It is usually easier to capture than to take down a tower. The consequence of many change made turtling (staying on your base waiting your opponent to suicide on your defence) too strong. Building are way more deadlier than they used to be. Edited March 14, 2021 by Dizaka 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 Thank you for your detailed analysis, it's appreciated! A few of the things you listed were actually not changed in A24, though. For instance, the Carthaginian and Persian trader bonuses were implemented nine years ago (11349) and the international bonuses five years ago (18108). What has changed in A24 is that a lot of work has been done on correcting and improving the information displayed in game. As with everything, this job is not finished, 0 A.D. is a result of nearly two decades of work by dozens if not hundreds of people and there will also be things that could and should be improved. On 12/03/2021 at 10:38 PM, Edwarf said: Lack of Metal: This is indeed problematic. Part of the problem is expensive technologies (which can be easily changed), part of it is generally poor map design. On 12/03/2021 at 10:38 PM, Edwarf said: Personal feeling about the future: I have seen some proposition on the forum about gameplay “innovation” and I feel like it tend to copy similar RTS games such as Age of Empire 2. For exemple the food decay, the scout phase 1, cavalry not able to hunt anymore, stable, siege workshop... I am a bit sad about that, this game is wonderful and unique. It can be improved with real gameplay innovation such as regenerative fishes, trees and berries. There is no need to copy other archaic games. -> I hope it is just a feeling. I fully agree. Age of Empires II is a very popular game, yet that doesn't mean it should be followed blindly. One can look at other games for inspiration, of course, but in the end what's done in 0 A.D. should be what makes sense for 0 A.D., regardless what other games do. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwarf Posted March 14, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 (edited) @Dizaka, Thank you for your comments, i commented again (in blue inside the quote) 16 hours ago, Dizaka said: Gauls: A23: Top 3 civilizations, strong economic bonuses (population space on every building/building faster to build/rotary mill), strong heros and fanatic strong for raids. Paired with Iberians is really powerful. True like all P1 skirm civilizations A24: Decent civilization, economic bonuses (building faster to build/extra food upgrade).Very strong power spike at phase 2 due to extra damage on sword cavalry en cheaper fanatic. New champions, Heroes easier to reach. (Cheaper stable and barracks.) A strong civilization overall. Diversity of units in p2. Can do a good p3 push. The ability to produce rams, hero, and dmg reduction units at the same time is extremely valuable. I don't really understand why they can do good p3 push they have nothing more than other civs on this phase. in A23 i'd agreed but in A24 i don't see why, tell me more, i feel like i'm missing something. Strength: Building faster to build Extra food upgrade phase 2, helps for the sword cavalry spam. Strong Heroes that do not require a fort True but now only 6 over 13 civilizations needs a fort to train Heroes it is not a specific gauls strength. Strong melee cavalry (+15% damage) Strong team bonus and dmg reduction battle units. True but expensive. Weakness: Only rams has siege weapon Weaker buildings -> Gauls weaker in A24 than in A23 but still decent. Harder to play, not a beginner civilization anymore. Macedonians: A23: One of the worst civilizations no swords, no spears, useless heroes, no economic bonuses. One of the few civilization that can do massive damage if played by the right player. Only civilization that could attack with 15-16 rams within 16/17 mins generally making it difficult to defend versus, especially versus Gauls, Seleucids, or any other skrimisher civ (e.g., rome, macedonianss, iberians, etc) that massed skirmishers with no anti siege. This civ paired with Iberians is extremely powerful as advancement to p3 is significantly faster. Romans had everithing better and i'm not convinced by this strategy but yes i see your point. A24: A bit better thanks to champion swordsmanChanges to pikemen do not necessitate a need for swordsmen. I am a bit confused pikemen changed ? i still see 2 hack + 3 pierce / 2 seconds which is actually worst than women against rams. New champion crossbowman (a bit weak can’t be spammed due to massive overkill). Uniqueness of this civilization completely lost in a24 as every civ now has the same siege ability. Possibility? Make siege workshop a p2 building that counts for p3 like ele stables for Maury. true good point. Strength: Phase 1 spear cavalry Variety of siege weapons Hellenistic Metropolis (Civic center +100% Health points) Stronger buildings Foot companions, like Ptolemic pikemen, kill rams. No need for sword or wasting metal on the newly available units anymore because of how game was revamped it's not a problem anymore. Pikemens were and are still good meat shield but i don't see the change in order to counter rams. Weakness: No economic bonuses No spear infantry (except champions) Because of update there is a strong preference for pikemen in lieu of spear infantry. -> Macedonians Slightly stronger weaker in A24 than in A23. Not a viable civ currently and do not see other players play it in mutliplayer. Seleucids have about everything mace has plus more. true but remain as a bad civilization Mauryas : A23 : Decent civilization (Very strong in nomad games) that can be played strong by a players such as 90/letsplay0ad who knows how to use cav to hunt food - can mass 20-30 cav by minute 9 and dominate most civs (but only with right player, otherwise extremely weak). I agree. Heroes a bit weak RELATIVE to other civilization heroes I agree., economic bonuses (Elephant worker), +10% population limit, only elephant as siege weapon (except expensive champions maceman and tricky rams) A24 : Very strong civilization. Heroes still can be perceived as weak to most players. However, economic discount + speed and temple discount + speed heroes are extremely powerful in a games dependent on metal. Will to fight now only costs 1200 instead of the 1500 resources as for other civs. R2 upgrades in temple can cost 250 food instead of 1000 with the right setup, thanks to heroes, and temples can cost only 75 stone. Extremely powerful two heroes (priest/chariot) with other heroes and bonuses (elephant/trade hero) that, generally, are useless. Economic Construction bonuses (Elephant worker) It is a free moving ressources deposit it's good for economy (especialy at start), +10% population limit, Strong unique champion maceman (Note: rarely used in multiplayer now. In the past good players could really turn games with these) I'm pretty sure they are still great now they are cheaper and easier to make we just need to be used to this new alpha to be confortable with them., Strong Archer chapions, Strong elephant archer, Indian siege elephant, access to rams.(cheaper barracks/stable) Strength: Elephant Workers bonus of +25% construction speed is ridiculously powerful (Not utilized by many players). +10% population limit is amazing due to Elephant siege population cost. Elephant faster to recruit Indian Siege Elephant Extra Sword upgrade Archery tradition Unique Champion Maceman Strong archer champions (poison damage) Strong archer elephants Cheap Walls 20% discount and 50% speed on all upgrades at wonder (population), fort (will to fight), and weaponsmith (damage/defense upgrades) as these buildings can be garrisoned by the priest hero. I agree this hero is OK Up to 75% discount on temple upgrades if using hero and an ally is a Maury (e.g., r2 upgrade at temple can cost 250 food instead of 1000 food. That's huge.). I agree its fun to have cheap temple/upgrade but most of the time you already have temple on phase 2 and upgrade are not mandatory most of the time. and that's it, once this is done it doesn't provide much. Also when you have a mauryan ally it provide only 25% discount on temple/upgrade. Only civ other than Romans that has access to WOODEN cost walls. However, with strength of palisades this is a moot point. That's what i meant by "cheap wall" Weakness: Most players over-depend on archers. No pikemen but has spearmen. However, in a24 lack of pikemen is a serious disadvantage. Pikemen make Kush/Ptolemies/Carthage really powerful. Carthage doesn't have pikemen you probably mean Seleucids/Macedonians ? None -> Mauryas are stronger in A24 than in A23 Ptolemies: A23: Top 3 civilization, economic bonus (free buildings), good team bonus, Strong heroes, strong army compositions, large variety of siege weapons. Very strong navy: Lighthouse, Juggernaut. Camel Archer Phase 1. Paired with Iberians and extremely powerful civilization. I agree A24: Very strong civilization, economic bonus (cheaper buildings), good team bonus Strong Heroes, strong army compositions, large variety of siege weapons. Camel Archer Phase 1. Standard Extremely strong navy. Civ has the siege ships. This is extremely powerful and few civs have these ships. I need to play more naval battle but siege ships are now really bad against units and only un-experimented player place important building near shore line. In ship vs ship battle, 3 loaded medium warship (=3900 ressources) are better than a loaded siege ship (9 catapults) (=6900 ressources). Also ptolemies medium warship have less health point than celtic and mauryans medium warships. Strength: Cheaper buildings (-40% cost for house, corral, storehouse and farmstead) Strong heroes (and in Civic Center) Variety of siege weapons Stronger Bolt Shooter (faster less overkill) Library Hellenistic Metropolis Military Colony Camel archer at phase 1 Pikemen in a24 are a critical composition component of any army. These pikemen units can be buffed by a hero. These pikemen units can be also buffed by another hero if loss of pikeman hero.(cleopatra speed bonus won't do much dealing nothing or dealing faster nothing is still nothing) but yes Pikemen are great meat shield. Weakness: Swordsman only as mercenaries All ranged infantry are based on minerals (stone/metal). Spear unit only as mercenaries -> Ptolemies are slightly weaker in A24 than in A23. A bit better balanced but still very strong. Romans: A23: Strong civilization, good heroes, good team bonus, strong siege, very strong military camps, spear cavalry phase 1. No palisade and no economic bonuses. Uses 'average units' like skrimishers/spear and when paired with Iberians can be really powerful. True like all P1 skirm civilizations A24: Decent Weak civilization as it is a "siege civ" strongly dependent on aoe of siege. I actually agree. good heroes, good team bonus, strong siege, weaker military camps, spear cavalry phase 1. Now they have palisade Phase 1 and regular stone walls later on, in addition to wooden walls. True but they already had stone walls like all civilizations. No economic bonuses. Strength: Castra (Army camp) Strong heroes Strong siege Good team bonus Spear cavalry phase 1 Weakness: Castra no longer permit construction of siege (ranged or melee). A weakness of Romans, currently, is that castra is a weak structure that can be taken down with infantry. Currently, having an enemy castra near a cc is not even seen as a problem and the building is ignored. In the past, civs had to build outposts to secure their territory to make sure no castra was built and paid attention as it could turn games. Castra is still the deadlier defensive building 25 pierce damage. it is cheaper than it used to be. i was not a big fan of sneak siege push in previous alpha, 1hp man could by himself build in the shade of a tree a military camp and a bunch of rams. it was a pain in the ass. If it could train cavalry/skirms i agree it can be nice. No economic bonus -> Romans are weaker in A24 than in A23. (It would have been great to have other kind of unit in castra than only melee) Seleucids: A23: Decent civilization, medium heroes, variety of siege units, good army compositions. No economic bonuses. A24: Decent Strong civilization. Elephant dmg bonus hero is pretty powerful, however this hero is useless in late game. In general, the remaining heroes are medium heroes. Actually the sword cavalry hero "Antiochos IV" is better instead of giving 20% damage it reduce building health point by 20% which is exactly the same but at least it work for all units not only elephants, he is also faster making him better to snipe siege. Strong variety of siege units. Good army compositions. No economic bonuses.(no change overall) Strength: Free champion infantry upgrade Military Colony Hellenistic Metropolis Variety of siege units Good army compositions Archer cavalry is extremely powerful. Yes mostly due to the archer balance issue otherwize their archer cavalry is the same as persian and ptolemies. Weakness: No economic bonus -> Seleucids remain a decent civilization in A24. Better balance overall now. Overall balance: Lack of Metal: This this this this this 100x. Catapults: Catapult are way weaker than they used to be in A23, they are useless against units (which is great horrible ) they are easily destroyed by archers (this is great, but too easily destroyable which is horrible), they deal very few damage. Catapults should be dealing AOE damage to units.In my opinion bolt shooters are made to fight against units not catapults However, the requirement is that they need to be mircoed by the player. An alternative can exist where siege can be made to "select units over structures" if dmg vs players is smaller than in a23. Catapults always selected buildings over units and are useless in presence of buildings when not microed. However they are a bit too expensive : they are more expensive than rams and elephants. I suggest to reduce their resources price and also the population cost, 3 is too much currently 2 might be better. This could be an alternative to siege dmg vs units. That is, the left over population could be used to build units to counter siege. “Turtling”: This is a huge problem. After minute 18 if a game isn't decided it will be a 60+ minute game. In a23 typical game was 40 minutes. True Palisades/Walls are a huge problem that enable turtling. Either add a special unit that kills walls/palisades only and is hard to kill or the ability for the game host to limit palisades. On the other hand, Palisades are necessary to surround each tower. Why are tower so easy to capture? It is crazy easy to capture towers now for some reason. It is usually easier to capture than to take down a tower. The consequence of many change made turtling (staying on your base waiting your opponent to suicide on your defence) too strong. Building are way more deadlier than they used to be. Edited March 14, 2021 by Edwarf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip the Swaggerless Posted March 25, 2021 Report Share Posted March 25, 2021 On 12/03/2021 at 3:38 PM, Edwarf said: -> Archer units are too strong. Maybe give back the A23 statistics to the slingers and give 2 or 3 standard pierce resistance to the javelineers making them stronger against ranged units and still weak against melee.(like this all 3 ranged infantry are unique) One change that I would eventually like to see is melee units being more viable for the main portion of your army as opposed to a small percentage. In the A23 I think you wanted to have your ranged units outnumber your melee units at least 3 to 1. Melee infantry are even worse off than before. So rather than seeing slingers and javs buffed (making melee infantry even less effective) I would prefer for archers to nerfed. I'm undecided on how I feel about the metal issue. It is adequate for a 1v1 but not for a team game. So maybe the new style of team play will have to prioritize trade and/or map control. That seems like an interesting strategic addition to me and I'll take a wait and see approach. By the way, the Spartan Hero Agis...why was he debuffed? He now has normal hero HP but still no Aura or bonuses. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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