gameplay Wonders seem unfocused and unnecessary

[Yekaterina]

Bribing is a good feature, but I would really appreciate it if you allow the production of enemy units. Sometimes a Persian player would really need a catapult and a Macedonian player really needs an elephant while Romans really want archers. 

This is consistent with the historical fact to recruiting mercenaries. 

What do you guys think?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

6 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

Hmm i understand that tech a little different (never used it though). I think it is across all units but the historical explanation is intel came from traders. Not sure though.

No, bribing only affects Traders, currently.

template_unit_support_trader.xml:

    <VisibleClasses datatype="tokens">Trader Bribable</VisibleClasses>

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Honestly, Bribing units should be extended to all Support units, not just Traders. Bribing only traders seemed useless or not cost effective to me. Very limiting. There's better ways of limiting bribes, for instance maybe only 3 bribes can be active at any time.

You gotta do better than that. Go into details of why you think this is true? 

simple I play with the Ai  so , The first thing that artificial intelligence seeks to be is to reach the highest phases, if ai reachs the fourth phase and if he has a better handicap than mine, he reaches the fourth phase earlier than me.

 

So then the game becomes a race to destroy the wonder that artificial intelligence has already built.

 

There are times that I have managed to destroy or seize the wonder and win myself.

 

probably the same would do a human player.

For me the fun of winning the wonder mode is to go through all the phases and build the wonder at the end.

[Palaxin]

Honestly I am not that into the idea of recruiting enemy units. You can argue that this reduces civ diversity which is a problem right now...

[Grapjas]

4 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

Bribing is a good feature, but I would really appreciate it if you allow the production of enemy units. Sometimes a Persian player would really need a catapult and a Macedonian player really needs an elephant while Romans really want archers. 

This is consistent with the historical fact to recruiting mercenaries. 

What do you guys think?

I think it's going off topic,

One more thing though

3 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

No, bribing only affects Traders, currently.

I fully agree then that it needs to expand. Wouldn't mind if bribing lasts for 1 minute, but you can see everything from the selected player (except training/tech queues though).

Edited March 12, 2021 by Grapjas

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

4 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

For me the fun of winning the wonder mode is to go through all the phases and build the wonder at the end.

The entire point of Wonder mode is to race to build a wonder. lol

Edited March 12, 2021 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Yekaterina]

1 minute ago, Palaxin said:

Honestly I am not that into the idea of recruiting enemy units. You can argue that this reduces civ diversity which is a problem right now...

I see. To increase civ diversity we can add new units that we have not though about or remove some cliched units, for example every civ has rams and cavalry skirmishers. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 minute ago, Grapjas said:

I fully agree then that it needs to expand. Wouldn't mind if bribing lasts for 1 minute, but you can see everything from the selected player (except training/tech queues though).

Seems pretty OP to me. Bribing individual units seems just fine to me, as long as it's expanded to more classes of units. 

[Yekaterina]

 

2 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

think it's going off topic,

My idea is building a wonder gives you the ability to train enemy units, before you get the wonder you cannot do that. 

[Grapjas]

Just now, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Seems pretty OP to me. Bribing individual units seems just fine to me, as long as it's expanded to more classes of units. 

Could limit it to 3 times per game only, and besides that, it is quite costly.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

4 minutes ago, Palaxin said:

Honestly I am not that into the idea of recruiting enemy units. You can argue that this reduces civ diversity which is a problem right now...

Indeed. The entire point of a Wonder is that it is the pinnacle of that civ's achievement. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, Yekaterina said:

 

My idea is building a wonder gives you the ability to train enemy units, before you get the wonder you cannot do that. 

In fact that's why we want the mercenary camps.

[maroder]

12 minutes ago, Palaxin said:

You mean something like über hoplites for Sparta, über elephants for Mauryans etc.? I fear that would be a bit too special. I want to make room for 2-3 choices so you can act according to your current circumstances. However I could imagine there are 5 endgame technologies and each civ can choose 2 or 3 out of them...

Yes something along those lines, maybe a little bit more tech focused. Like a big increase in formation attack for Romans or reduced cost for Persian cav.

And yes that would be quite special, but it would give room for differentiation.

But anyways i like your idea also.

[Palaxin]

1 minute ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The entire point of a Wonder is that it is the pinnacle of that civ's achievement. 

Exactly! A 4th phase and special über technologies should be considered a special bonus granted by that wonder as a reward.

This does not make wonder victory irrelevant...

[Yekaterina]

What about wonders increasing capture attack of all units and also unlocks the ability to capture enemy's women? Historically conquerors tend to use enemy citizens as slaves instead of murdering all of them. 

[maroder]

3 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

Could limit it to 3 times per game only, and besides that, it is quite costly.

indeed, the cost alone should prevent it from being used too often.

[Lion.Kanzen]

6 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The entire point of Wonder mode is to race to build a wonder. lol

Yes but at the end not at the beginning of a stage.

 

It is a small mitigating factor. A little detail.

 

Yes but it is not the same, for example if you look closely that feature is AoE 3 Oh surprise there is no such mode in that game.

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Espionage discussion split to here: 

 

[Palaxin]

6 minutes ago, maroder said:

Yes something along those lines, maybe a little bit more tech focused. Like a big increase in formation attack for Romans or reduced cost for Persian cav.

And yes that would be quite special, but it would give room for differentiation.

I like the idea of more special technologies, but not of tying them to the wonder. Make them available in city phase and give the wonder a boost (better: a few choices) that will benefit you no matter what your situation is. Finishing the wonder should mean something like 75% winning chance when before it was 50%.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

3 minutes ago, Palaxin said:

I like the idea of more special technologies, but not of tying them to the wonder. Make them available in city phase and give the wonder a boost (better: a few choices) that will benefit you no matter what your situation is. Finishing the wonder should mean something like 75% winning chance when before it was 50%.

Could a "Wonder Victory" be part of the default winning strategy? Just make it take a long time to achieve victory (10 minutes? 15 minutes?). Kind of a stalemate breaker. 

Edited March 12, 2021 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Grapjas]

2 minutes ago, Palaxin said:

I like the idea of more special technologies, but not of tying them to the wonder. Make them available in city phase and give the wonder a boost (better: a few choices) that will benefit you no matter what your situation is. Finishing the wonder should mean something like 75% winning chance when before it was 50%.

Personally don't see the issue tying a unique unit/tech to a wonder even with the reason you stated. I would be much more willing to build a wonder for a special unit instead of some boring +xx% bonus

[Lion.Kanzen]

19 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The entire point of Wonder mode is to race to build a wonder. lol

Yes but at the end not at the beginning of a stage.

 

It is a small mitigating factor. A little detail.

 

Yes but it is not the same, for example if you look closely that feature is AoE 3 Oh surprise there is no such mode in that game.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

A concept that I liked that in the last phase of AOE online you had the OP technologies.

 

That it was a concept more or less similar to the technologies of the Castle in him AOE II.

[Grapjas]

4 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Could a "Wonder Victory" be part of the default winning strategy? Just make it take a long time to achieve victory (10 minutes? 15 minutes?). Kind of a stalemate breaker.

Meh imo i think it's fine the way it is, optional.

[Palaxin]

3 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

I would be much more willing to build a wonder for a special unit instead of some boring +xx% bonus

The most iconic units are already in the game. E.g. it would be stupid to have Spartan hoplites only with a wonder, but there is (and should) not a better unit for Spartans than hoplites. Furthermore, new special units for each civ would need much more balance tweaking. My point was that depending on the special circumstance you are in game, you may not even profit much of a new special unit if it doesn't fit your situation and playstyle...

I understand wonders could be made more exciting. I assumed to find a relatively simple solution that can be implemented and agreed within a relatively short timeframe, ready for the next release. I agree we lack changes on an overall perspective that takes the whole gameplay into account, but any attempts into that direction failed in the last years.