Rush by dogs and win !

[king reza the great]

Hi guys. 

I wanna talk about a strange update in a24

Dogs in p1

Why not ? They r fast. Easy to spam. Just need 100 food. 

All of u need is a few hunts or extra berries.

After that start spamming dogs. They kill women better than any cav

Also they kill ranged men easily too.

U can make a polar sea for ur opponent. Even worse because dogs r faster than wolves.

A wise host would ban Britons from his games!

[borg-]

25 minutes ago, king reza the great said:

Hi guys. 

I wanna talk about a strange update in a24

Dogs in p1

Why not ? They r fast. Easy to spam. Just need 100 food. 

All of u need is a few hunts or extra berries.

After that start spamming dogs. They kill women better than any cav

Also they kill ranged men easily too.

U can make a polar sea for ur opponent. Even worse because dogs r faster than wolves.

A wise host would ban Britons from his games!

It is a valid strategy, mainly because we want Celts to be rush civilizations.

Dogs can kill women easy yes, but they can hardly do that inside the CC, because they have a very low vision range.
The current state is better than the dog in a23 which alone can kill 10 women.
To train a first dog you need to invest 350 in resources, while your enemy can train like 4 soldiers with the same resource, a matter of choice.

If you play against brit be aware that it is a viable strategy, and training soldiers or making towers can be interesting to avoid this rush.

 

[Silier]

ranged units are weak once melee units catch them, don't compose your army just from them 

[borg-]

Edit.

Edited February 25, 2021 by borg-

[borg-]

Exactly. Dogs not very effective vs melee + ranged units. They are used to "make 100 slings and crush all".

Edited February 25, 2021 by borg-

[king reza the great]

49 minutes ago, borg- said:

It is a valid strategy, mainly because we want Celts to be rush civilizations.

Dogs can kill women easy yes, but they can hardly do that inside the CC, because they have a very low vision range.
The current state is better than the dog in a23 which alone can kill 10 women.
To train a first dog you need to invest 350 in resources, while your enemy can train like 4 soldiers with the same resource, a matter of choice.

If you play against brit be aware that it is a viable strategy, and training soldiers or making towers can be interesting to avoid this rush.

 

Its not a good one. Chrstgrt killed like 100 people with dogs from me and dakyras and they were mostly  men...

For vision, a player can easily put a cav between them.

At least u could limit them by metal. For example 100 food 20 metal. It stop players to spam dogs easily.

Dogs in p1 is really a big wrong.

Edited February 25, 2021 by king reza the great

[borg-]

5 minutes ago, king reza the great said:

Its not a good one. Chrstgrt killed like 100 people with dogs from me and dakyras and they were mostly  men...

For vision, a player can easily put a cav between them.

Dogs in p1 is really a big wrong.

Well, to say that it is a mistake p1 dogs because a much better player than you killed many units of yours, is not a valid point.
If you lost 100 units to 20 dogs, the problem is with your skills I think, no offense.

Dogs are extremely vulnerable, you can make towers, palisades etc.

Edited February 25, 2021 by borg-

[borg-]

Every dog trained is a unit unless you could be using it to collect resources, if you are not effective in the rush you lose the game.

In late game they can be a great help for the troops, but that was already in a23, so nothing has changed.

[king reza the great]

14 minutes ago, borg- said:

Well, to say that it is a mistake p1 dogs because a much better player than you killed many units of yours, is not a valid point.
If you lost 100 units to 20 dogs, the problem is with your skills I think, no offense.

Dogs are extremely vulnerable, you can make towers, palisades etc.

then dakyeras with rank 1800 is a weak player who lost 50 men aginast dogs ? towers cant counter dogs like what u consider.

then u say i need to make towers and need to make men in early game with low wood and slow economy. while my opponent can spam many dogs only with food that is easy to access, its like he has a dog creator factory, and its balanced ?

Edited February 25, 2021 by king reza the great

[Silier]

could I see the replay?

[king reza the great]

its not about im a good player or not its about balancing and this case is not balanced.

u take it or leave it

[king reza the great]

4 minutes ago, Angen said:

could I see the replay?

here u r

enjoy the balance.

crazy dog rush.rar

[borg-]

13 minutes ago, king reza the great said:

then dakyeras with rank 1800 is a weak player who lost 50 men aginast dogs ? towers cant counter dogs like what u consider.

then u say i need to make towers and need to make men in early game with low wood and slow economy. while my opponent can spam many dogs only with food that is easy to access, its like he has a dog creator factory, and its balanced ?

The cost of a dog and a soldier is the same in total resources. One can only attack, the other can attack and collect res and building, how can this make dogs a mega op?

For you to have a dog you need a lot of food, so theoretically less soldiers and women in the wood, less wood, less farms, less food. I don't really understand your point here.

Edited February 25, 2021 by borg-

[vinme]

13 hours ago, borg- said:

For you to have a dog you need a lot of food, so theoretically less soldiers and women in the wood, less wood, less farms, less food. I don't really understand your point here.

i dont understand your point here

 

[king reza the great]

6 minutes ago, borg- said:

The cost of a dog and a soldier is the same in total resources. One can only attack, the other can attack and collect res and building, how can this make dogs a mega op?

For you to have a dog you need a lot of food, so theoretically less soldiers and women in the wood, less wood, less farms, less food. I don't really understand your point here.

Food has more potential for storage than wood because u make buildings with wood.

the point is that in start of a game i have to spend my little wood for making towers and making men. and not spaming women because its so risky. it make me slow. while my opponent who has brit can spam dogs with use of hunts and berries that r easy to access.
he can build his economy faster + rush by dogs and makes me sower.

[borg-]

1 minute ago, vinme said:

i dont understand your point here

 

what I meant is that for you to have large quantities of food to the point of spamming dogs is difficult. With the value of a dog you can train 2 women. If you don't have women, you won't have a significant amount of food, unless you have a lot of game. You also need wood to make farms for food. What I mean is that it is not easy for you to have enough food at the beginning of the game to destroy your enemy with just dogs, because if you do that it is a huge risk to your economy.

[vinme]

never fought vs dogs but clearly op from stats 110hp*1.1(armor multiplier)*9=1089 this is ignoring the far superior speed to inf/women 

compare that to lets say javeineer 50*1.1*12.8=704

compare that to lets say spearman 100*1.41*5.5=775.5

and spearmen having slightly higher score is fair since jav are faster so it balances out

dogs have 13.5 speed wich is too high and are around 1.5 as res >value efficient as regular units just stat wise ignoring speed.

this cannot be justified by the fact that they cannot eco since that becomes irrelevant if you use them to fight.

[borg-]

you forgot the attack, javelins for example have Double attack than dogs and have distance in your favor.
basically the dog is the same as a23, just with a little more health, but with less speed and can’t promote, so why wasn’t it used in a23 and now it’s op?
the only justification would be the fact that I can be trained in p1, but I think that this can be learned to be defended. too early to say it's op and needs to be a civilization banned from games.
i played brit vs fpre yesterday, and tried dog rush. I was not efficient when I only had dogs, he already had a significant number of soldiers and I couldn't do anything, I had to train cavalry to attack with my dogs, so I managed to be effective, but it cost me a lot of eco and certainly if I was against vali or feld i would have lost the game.

[vinme]

i didnt forget the attack look at my calculations the 12.8 is dps of javelins (16 per 1.25sec) yes range is relevant too but 9*2=18 not 12.8 

since now it can be trained in p1 the imbalance is far more relevant.after p1 there are men around farms,a lot of men in woodline so you dont have enough time to mass dogs.

clearly imba from stats alone the fact that it can be defended is irrelevant since real game results are irrelevant and biased because of variety of factors like the 2player match performance and also luck (not only in form of mapgen)

dogs are 50% stronger than regular units stable to train them form is what? like 25,30% more affordable? at least than the regular barack,train time is menially longer by 3 sec than men.

there really has to be 0 understanding of fudamentals of balance and also of third grade math to make such a mistake..and yeah i know im being mean but i dont see any other way to say this without watering down the obvious reality.

[borg-]

Map editor and make some tests 20 dogs x 20 units (infantry, same cost per unit). Send me results pls. I cant make tests now.

Edited February 25, 2021 by borg-

[vinme]

i dont see any reason to do the tests.

[Nescio]

For the record, a player could have up to 50 dogs in A23, in A24 only 20. Their movement speed is slightly lower and they can no longer promote, making them effectively weaker.

Dogs might be useful in particular situations, I don't know, though generally investing the 100 food in two more female workers to gather wood or cavalry is better in the early game. Further changes could be made in A25, of course.

[Genava55]

47 minutes ago, borg- said:

Map editor and make some tests 20 dogs x 20 units (infantry, same cost per unit). Send me results pls. I cant make tests now.

20 dogs beat 20 basic spearmen, a couple of them have the time to promote but still, they end up beaten.

Edit: and 10 spearmen + 5 slingers + 5 javelineers actually barely beat 20 dogs.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Genava55

[borg-]

30 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

20 dogs beat 20 basic spearmen, a couple of them have the time to promote but still, they end up beaten.

BUT 20 dogs are beaten by 10 spearmen and 5 slingers. So yeah, ranged units.

So with same resources you fight 20 dogs with this mix of units, and you can still collect resources.

Probably dogs will lost vs archers, slinger, swordsman and javelins, only against spearmen and maybe pike they can win.

If you are willing to open a discussion, be willing to test and put some proposals to solve the problem that, not just throw a bunch of numbers.

Edited February 25, 2021 by borg-

[Genava55]

2 minutes ago, borg- said:

So with 25% less resources you fight 20 dogs with this mix of units, and you can still collect resources.

Probably dogs will lost vs archers, slinger, swordsman and javelins, only against spearmen and maybe pike they can win.

By the numbers cited by @vinme, dogs should win every fight vs citizens soldiers, and it doesn't happen.

Balancing is not just done by numbers and several other factors involved. If you base everything on numbers then you will have an equal game for everything. Some civilizations have different proposals, some are weak at the beginning of the end, and you don't necessarily need to balance the end just because it is op.

And if you are willing to open a discussion, be willing to test and put some proposals to solve the problem that, not just throw a bunch of numbers.

I actually made a mistake with the editor and actually 20 dogs are not beaten by 10+5 mixed units. Even 10 spearmen, 5 slingers and 5 javelineers barely succeed, mostly because the dogs are wrecking easily the ranged units if they reach them.