Punic in 0 A.D.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

I was wondering about the current consensus of what language is being used for Carthage.  From some people, I have heard that Hebrew is being used, but there are a good number of differences in the ways that the words for various buildings are used and Classical Hebrew in things such as vocalisation.  If Hebrew is the language of choice, I would like to move forward with a more systematic transliteration and potentially see about some voices done for them.

[Sundiata]

Phoenician mixed with some Proto Berber would be the closest approximation of ancient Punic. Phoenician, Aramaic and Ancient Hebrew are related, but it's debated to what extent they were actually mutually intelligible. There were apparently some fundamental differences in pronunciation, and in some cases Phoenician was more similar to Arabic and Aramaic respectively than Hebrew, which is technically more closely related, I believe. I think Phoenician and Hebrew were quite similar in the early first millennium BC, but diverged more strongly in the second half of the millennium, with the emergence of Punic widening it still. 

Potential Yiddish accents flavouring reconstructed modern or classic Hebrew for a North African civ also seems a bit weird. 

Perhaps Yemenite Hebrew is something interesting to look at (seems to be more archaic). And what about Amazigh for Libyan units? 

Then we can reserve Hebrew for a future Hebrew faction, the Maccabees/Hasmonean Dynasty... They're from the right timeframe, super interesting, relevant (Seleucid/Ptolemaic/Roman interaction), and there's definitely interest (has been requested many times now). 

 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Sundiata

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

I would definitely find the Hasmonean Jewish nation to be a fantastic addition to the game, but I can't agree with you on the basis of including Proto-Berger, which isn't even linguistically Semitic to my understanding.  Another thing I would like to quickly point out is that Classical Hebrew's phonology is generally based on what is called Tiberian, which comes roughly A.D. 800, in Judaea, not from European Jews.  A further issue with carelessly making an amalgamation of the two separate languages is the repercussions that would have on the transliteration.  If Aramaic seems like a better option, then we should go over Hebrew.  

What concerns me about attempting to do Phoenician or Punic is the general lack of any good scholarly lexicons readily available (Unless I've missed something).  What would be done for more obscure words other than haphazardly bringing in another language?  Obviously Hebrew and Aramaic are hardly the best options, but they are certainly the easiest not correct ones to depict well.

Edited June 26, 2019 by Thorfinn the Shallow Minded

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

Then we can reserve Hebrew for a future Hebrew faction, the Maccabees/Hasmonean Dynasty... They're from the right timeframe, super interesting, relevant (Seleucid/Ptolemaic/Roman interaction), and there's definitely interest (has been requested many times now). 

As I understand it at the time, they were divided into political factions; on the one hand the Pharisees, quite nationalistic and at the other extreme Sadducees, a completely Hellenistic faction. Adding to this political mix are the Idumeans to the south and the Nabataeans, as well as Samaria. (Ancient capital of the northern kingdom)

[Sundiata]

21 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

I would definitely find the Hasmonean Jewish nation to be a fantastic addition to the game,

Spoiler

For the wonder, should we go with Zerubbabel's temple (536 - 516 BC), or Herod's temple (second half of the 1st century BC)? Neither of them are actually Hasmonean or "Maccabee", although it was refurbished/rebuilt during Hasmonean times as well. Perhaps we should use a more generic term like Judeans? 

 

 

24 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Another thing I would like to quickly point out is that Classical Hebrew's phonology is generally based on what is called Tiberian, which comes roughly A.D. 800, in Judaea, not from European Jews.

I'm definitely no expert, I just thought European Jews influenced the modern pronunciation of Biblical Hebrew, which is why I thought the Yemeni example was interesting. But I really dunno...

 

31 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

A further issue with carelessly making an amalgamation of the two separate languages is the repercussions that would have on the transliteration.  If Aramaic seems like a better option, then we should go over Hebrew.  

I meant that it would be nice to have Proto Berber Libyan units speaking Amazigh, to differentiate them from the Hebrew speaking Punics, lol, that sounds so weird.... Maybe they should just speak English. I honestly don't know if Punic sounded more like Aramaic or Hebrew. Seems like there's different answers for different times. During the heyday of Carthage, it seems to have been more different from Hebrew, but again, no expert here. 

 

35 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

What concerns me about attempting to do Phoenician or Punic is the general lack of any good scholarly lexicons readily available (Unless I've missed something).  What would be done for more obscure words other than haphazardly bringing in another language?  Obviously Hebrew and Aramaic are hardly the best options, but they are certainly the easiest not correct ones to depict well.

I agree... I was basically just stating that I prefer the Jewish flavor for a Jewish faction, instead of having the North African civ sounding overly Jewish. But then again, maybe they did? I'm just imagining our Hero Hannibal during a 0AD match going "Shalom" anytime I select him, and it sounds a bit funny. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

Seleucid dynasty was determined to force the Jews to accept Hellenism.

Quote

In 141 BC, Simon the Maccabee demolished the hated Akra, a fortress that the Seleucids had built to the south of the Temple Mount so that a Macedonian garrison could control the Jewish population.

Spoiler

 

 

The temple wasn't built in a single day.

 

Sorry for going to off-topic.

I agree with Lybo phoenicians language. 

Then lordgood was annoyed by my suggestion to give him more variety and genetic diversity.

Edited June 26, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

5 hours ago, Sundiata said:

I agree... I was basically just stating that I prefer the Jewish flavor for a Jewish faction, instead of having the North African civ sounding overly Jewish. But then again, maybe they did? I'm just imagining our Hero Hannibal during a 0AD match going "Shalom" anytime I select him, and it sounds a bit funny. 

Fair enough.  That said, I don't have any reason to think that the team would add in another faction, and there are others that I would say are more on demand such as Thebes, Corinth, Argos, Syracuse, Tarentum, Epirus, Rhodes... basically everyone wants more Greeks and only Greeks.  Those who say they don't are in denial.  

Silliness aside, there are plenty of responses that could be given that are less Jewish sounding.  The Greek voice acting mainly consists of "What is it?" (not a traditional greeting).  At least according to a forum post that apparently quoted a scholarly source, there might be indication that it Shalom was employed quite regularly in Punic even as a greeting:

Š-L-M I
[Heb. s̆-l-m]
v. pi’’el 1. GREET SOMEONE (+ 'lt)
CIS I 5510.6/7 (Pu) qr’ lmlqrt ysp ‘lty l s̆lm wlyrhy bmqm [z], “As for him who calls to Milqart, they shall continue to greet him and make him welcome in this city.” Cf. Arabic sallama 'alā.


ŠLM II
[Heb. s̆alōm]
n.m. 1. PEACE, specifically PEACEFUL RELATIONS
KAI 26 a I 11/12 (Ph) ws̆t ‘nk s̆lm ‘t kl mlk, “And I made peace with every king.”


ŠLM III
3. PROSPERITY, WELL-BEING
KAI 26 A III 1/4 (Ph) wbrk b’l krntrys̆ ‘yt ‘ztwd hym ws̆lm w’z ‘dr ‘l kl mlk, “May Baal-KRNTRYŠ bless Aztwadda with long life an [sic] well-being and might greater than that of any king.” – CIS I 5511.4 (Pu) dr s̆lm wmnh[t], “A time of prosperity and peace.”


Source: Krahmalkov, Charles R. Phoenician-Punic Dictionary. Leuven: Uitgeverij Peeters, 2000. 462-64.

[Sundiata]

2 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

basically everyone wants more Greeks and only Greeks.  Those who say they don't are in denial.

Hahahaha! No comment...

 

2 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Silliness aside, there are plenty of responses that could be given that are less Jewish sounding.  The Greek voice acting mainly consists of "What is it?" (not a traditional greeting).  At least according to a forum post that apparently quoted a scholarly source, there might be indication that it Shalom was employed quite regularly in Punic even as a greeting:

Very interesting, thank you! 

[Lion.Kanzen]

6 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Fair enough.  That said, I don't have any reason to think that the team would add in another faction, and there are others that I would say are more on demand such as Thebes, Corinth, Argos, Syracuse, Tarentum, Epirus, Rhodes... basically everyone wants more Greeks and only Greeks.  Those who say they don't are in denial.  

 

 

Terra Magna and Delenda Est, these mods are almost official for me, DE have better combat system.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Terra Magna and Delenda Est, these mods are almost official for me, DE have better combat system.

Millennium A.D. and Terra Magna don't try to change the gameplay, they just add civs, which is good on its own.  But thanks for the plug.   I think DE's counters make sense and puts emphasis back onto heavy infantry.

[Lion.Kanzen]

5 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Millennium A.D. and Terra Magna don't try to change the gameplay, they just add civs, which is good on its own.  But thanks for the plug.   I think DE's counters make sense and puts emphasis back onto heavy infantry.

You know I prefer your counters, a lot of your gameplay, so I recommend it and try to help you, soon I will try new mixed techniques for icons and other new things.

Spoiler

 

I'm also helping borg- .

I need the project not to be stalled I'm going to try to strengthen the sound part by recording some weapons sounds and then passing them on for audio post processing. I have been following the techniques of experts and sharpening(keening) my ear with the quality of some rts sounds.

 

 

[Nescio]

19 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

I was wondering about the current consensus of what language is being used for Carthage.  From some people, I have heard that Hebrew is being used, but there are a good number of differences in the ways that the words for various buildings are used and Classical Hebrew in things such as vocalisation.  If Hebrew is the language of choice, I would like to move forward with a more systematic transliteration and potentially see about some voices done for them.

Personally I strongly recommend to use a single language/direct, rather than an amalgam taken from different ones.

Some relevant things were posted in https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/24046-voice-over-artist/ , perhaps those ought to be merged into here.

Without people who know the language(s), nothing will change, though.

9 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Fair enough.  That said, I don't have any reason to think that the team would add in another faction, and there are others that I would say are more on demand such as Thebes, Corinth, Argos, Syracuse, Tarentum, Epirus, Rhodes... basically everyone wants more Greeks and only Greeks.  Those who say they don't are in denial.  

Adding new civilizations is low priority, and rightly so: correcting, improving, and maintaining the existing ones is already a lot of work, none of those is finished yet. But if we are dreaming, then the most important gaps are in the 150-1 BC timeframe: Parthia and Greater Armenia peaked here and including Han China would be great too; Pontus is probably too unimportant.

Other sensible additions could be Scythians, Thracians, Illyrians, Galatians, and Numidians.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 hours ago, Nescio said:

Parthia

Parthia was moved for second part.

The question is for late republican Romans.

[Genava55]

26 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Parthia was moved for second part.

The question is for late republican Romans.

Why it has been moved? Ok I know the Romans fought them mostly during the Imperial Era but the Parthians were fierce opponents to the Seleucids and got most of their territory before 129 BC.

[Lion.Kanzen]

10 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Why it has been moved? Ok I know the Romans fought them mostly during the Imperial Era but the Parthians were fierce opponents to the Seleucids and got most of their territory before 129 BC.

It is not written in stone but it has been said several times.

 

---

It is actually written on the game page.
And the sentence is as follows:

Quote

In future Expansion Packs, we hope to expand the number of available cultures by incorporating additional civilizations from 1 A.D. to 500 A.D. Possible civilizations include the Germanics, Vandals, Sarmatians, Late Rome, Imperial Rome, Eastern Rome (Early Byzantines), Saxons, Parthians, Huns, Dacians, and the Goths.

https://play0ad.com/game-info/factions/

Edited June 27, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen
Adding link.

[Genava55]

On 6/26/2019 at 6:15 PM, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

What concerns me about attempting to do Phoenician or Punic is the general lack of any good scholarly lexicons readily available (Unless I've missed something).  What would be done for more obscure words other than haphazardly bringing in another language?  Obviously Hebrew and Aramaic are hardly the best options, but they are certainly the easiest not correct ones to depict well.

There are "A Phoenician-Punic Grammar" and "Phoenician-Punic Dictionary" both by Charles R. Krahmalkov,  "A Comparative Semitic Lexicon of the Phoenician and Punic Languages" by Richard S. Tomback and "Latino-Punic Epigraphy: A Descriptive Study of the Inscriptions" by Robert M. Kerr.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

When I said readily available, I was talking about something that doesn't have say, a 159 dollar price tag attached to it.  The Comparative Lexicon you mentioned is out of print... I'm just not very optimistic.  The last one is the most inexpensive, standing at a price of 21 dollars, but there's no certainty that the vocabulary listed would even be ample enough to work for names.  That's why I and others kind have given up on that idea.  If anyone does have access to these resources, I'd be more than happy to change my mind.  Hebrew seems to be the easiest and coolest option; we can just rename the civilisation Kosher Carthage for good measure.

[Genava55]

12 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

When I said readily available, I was talking about something that doesn't have say, a 159 dollar price tag attached to it.  The Comparative Lexicon you mentioned is out of print... I'm just not very optimistic.  The last one is the most inexpensive, standing at a price of 21 dollars, but there's no certainty that the vocabulary listed would even be ample enough to work for names.  That's why I and others kind have given up on that idea.  If anyone does have access to these resources, I'd be more than happy to change my mind.  Hebrew seems to be the easiest and coolest option; we can just rename the civilisation Kosher Carthage for good measure.

Sent you a message, I included you in a talk about this issue

Edited June 28, 2019 by Genava55

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Oh thanks, those will definitely be useful.

[Genava55]

27 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Oh thanks, those will definitely be useful.

Your welcome, this is a pleasure to help.