Balancing Gauls is Easy.

[StopKillingMe]

35 minutes ago, (-_-) said:

When the highest ranked players jointly made and tested a mod, (which is apparently going to be integrated as per discussions amongst the devs) , your best chance as someone who shows up out of knowhere is to work with whats established. Not completely opposite of that.

Oh the irony, your signature is an announcement that you and others have decided to fork the code.  I rest my case.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, StopKillingMe said:

Oh the irony, your signature is an announcement that you and others have decided to fork the code.  I rest my case.

yes, unlike to do nothing.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen

[Guest]

So?

I worked on 0AD for a year. Nothing came out of it. Instead of stopping, I found an alternative. Just because it did not work out with 0AD does not mean another project can't benefit from it lol.

I consider that route more beneficial.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Guest

[Lion.Kanzen]

13 hours ago, StopKillingMe said:

Well congrats, I will no longer be participating on this forum anymore.  

what happen with this?.... decide stay or go. or make a mod or a patch.

[Loki1950]

Besides forking has always been a traditional response in the FOSS community it's what happens after all the flame wars the sides retire to separate corners and recover their  zeal to code better than the other guy

Enjoy the Choice   

Edited June 4, 2019 by Loki1950

[StopKillingMe]

6 hours ago, Loki1950 said:

You are just screaming do it my way and not taking any constructive criticism that just does not work on any Open source project all development is by compromise and you appear to refuse to do that just my way or the highway and @$%! everyone else that attitude will get you nowhere on any FOSS project we are not a dictatorship but a collective of volunteers that have developed a self governance regime that you seem to not agree with fine do it your way and quit bothering us with your unseasoned/emotional rants.

Enjoy the Choice

 

 

2 hours ago, Loki1950 said:

Besides forking has always been a traditional response in the FOSS community it's what happens after all the flame wars the sides retire to separate corners and recover their  zeal to code better than the other guy

Enjoy the Choice   

 

[DarcReaver]

On 6/4/2019 at 5:55 AM, StopKillingMe said:

Once again, I will restate clearly, the only objective for balance patch 1.0 should be to address the fact that Celts are being overplayed.

 

So here we go again, yet another attempt (that no doubt you will tell me is wrong):

 

Remove slingers from Age 1 CC for Britons and Athens, all slingers now trained from barracks in Age 2

Reduce slinger attack to 8.0 pierce - .5 crush, slow attack speed to 2.0 seconds

 

Implement quickly, see how that affects ladder play, prepare for next patch.  Easy peasy.

 

 

On 6/4/2019 at 7:12 AM, StopKillingMe said:

Well congrats, I will no longer be participating on this forum anymore.  

 

15 hours ago, StopKillingMe said:

This post is a perfect example of why I won't be participating here anymore.  Everyone knows what the issue is, the Celts need to be nerfed.  In vanilla.  But every thread now turns into how the most important thing is the borg mod.  I and others are not playing the mods, we are playing vanilla, so the solution is obvious.  But for some reason any attempt at actually addressing the issue is met with "how dare you speak to us this way", "you're not being respectful enough", etc.  I've got better things to do with my time then to try to coddle the egos of a bunch of people that clearly just need to grow up and get over themselves.

Don't you get it? The game isn't finished. Core gameplay mechanics are either missing or not fleshed out. There is no point in playing it "competitively" or expecting a solid gameplay experience. Take this 0 AD alpha as a tech demo, nothing more.

If you change some weapon stats of a unit it won't make a difference, because another unit will be spammed for rushing. That's because you can train military units from your main building, among other issues with resource gathering and overall gameplay speed.

Stop complaining and l2p Age of Empires/AoE 2 if you want a solid competition. 0 AD is the wrong place for that. 

 

Edited June 5, 2019 by DarcReaver

[coworotel]

7 hours ago, DarcReaver said:

Don't you get it? The game isn't finished. Core gameplay mechanics are either missing or not fleshed out. There is no point in playing it "competitively" or expecting a solid gameplay experience. Take this 0 AD alpha as a tech demo, nothing more.

If you change some weapon stats of a unit it won't make a difference, because another unit will be spammed for rushing. That's because you can train military units from your main building, among other issues with resource gathering and overall gameplay speed.

Stop complaining and l2p Age of Empires/AoE 2 if you want a solid competition. 0 AD is the wrong place for that.

Honest question... The things you think the game need, are they implementable as a mod, or do they demand engine changes? Can you give some example?

[DarcReaver]

34 minutes ago, coworotel said:

Honest question... The things you think the game need, are they implementable as a mod, or do they demand engine changes? Can you give some example?

Mods cannot do it. No game needs mods even before the core game is finished. 

That is because mods are not meant to create/simulate core gameplay mechanics. Mods are only for adding additional content to the game (like editing graphic sets, adding units/factions etc.) or make total conversions (i.e. change game setting to sci-fi or medieval) AFTER the game is finished.
ofc they can take content of the community mods to include in their base game if it fits. But the mods itself will never be a replacement for a good, polished vanilla gameplay. The game has to be finished in its own way, with its own gameplay design by the developer team.

Edited June 5, 2019 by DarcReaver

[StopKillingMe]

9 hours ago, DarcReaver said:

 

 

Don't you get it? The game isn't finished. Core gameplay mechanics are either missing or not fleshed out. There is no point in playing it "competitively" or expecting a solid gameplay experience. Take this 0 AD alpha as a tech demo, nothing more.

If you change some weapon stats of a unit it won't make a difference, because another unit will be spammed for rushing. That's because you can train military units from your main building, among other issues with resource gathering and overall gameplay speed.

Stop complaining and l2p Age of Empires/AoE 2 if you want a solid competition. 0 AD is the wrong place for that. 

 

No - you are the *clearly* one who doesn't get it.  We *are* playing this game - and competitively.  It's quite obvious you are not a competitive player if you think that training military units for a rush from the CC is an effective strategy.  It isn't.  Good players boom women and techs first, then build two or three rax, then attack or defend.  If you start by training military units from the CC, you will lose.

Trying to tell me that this is a tech demo and nothing more is ridiculously absurd.  There is a game play lobby and it's easy to get a 1v1 rated game pretty much most of the day.  So you don't know what you are talking about.

I don't care how much whining some of you do - Celts and specifically Britons need a nerf.  Slingers need a nerf.  The people that are actually playing this game day to day know this - the people that are denying this or making excuses are either not playing, or are more interested in their mod than vanilla.

The Meta as established by top player Borg is to batch train women and tech up, then get up one or two defensive towers at your woodline, build 2 or 3 rax, and then from there different strategies can branch out.  If you don't play Borg's established Meta and you come up against someone that does, you will lose badly.  Britons are ridiculous - you get an extra scout, building the starting farmstead and storage pit increases your pop and delays the need to build the opening house, and you can go all in on a Slinger rush in Age 1 and it has devastating effect.  There is no Meta that has any kind of rush from military units from the CC - the fact that you think that is an issue is a clear indication that you are not playing on the ladder.

Once again, the Celts (Britons) need a nerf, and if that makes a new civ suddenly OP, that would be a very welcome change.  You give Borg Britons and he could easily take on 3 or 4 human 1300 level players and win.  You wanna win on the ladder?  Get a hold of a Borg recorded game, copy his startup build order, play Britons, spam Age 1 Slingers, attack, and keep attacking.  If you are doing this effectively, the fact that your opponent is in Age 2 doesn't matter.  There is no effective counter for massed slingers, they can destroy towers, houses, farms - you're toast.  These are cold hard *facts*, that are coming from experience.  And that is what makes an RTS good or not good, how it plays on the ladder.  DOtMW had Korean rush problem, AOM had the Poseidon cav rush problem, and both of them were fixed easily.  This is not a difficult problem.  It is easily fixed, as will the next OP civ that emerges will be just as easy to fix.

Edited June 5, 2019 by StopKillingMe

[Servo]

What I don’t understand why the devs can’t make more game mechanics options so that at least the modders or the players can have a chance to mod/play with different sense/feel than just spamming units. Is there a lack of programmer  or there’s no courage to change things? 

Since A21 I have never seen any changes except on balancing (which imo is not very important as everyone has same opportunity) and arts. 

Borg mod is long overdue (when I played this with the Christian boy Kerat we really enjoyed it however long it took) this could’ve been done in A22 at least so that more options in the next alpha can follow that could improve the game.

DE was my last single player game because wow made it beautifully playable and there are couple of players (me included) wants to play MP. Nescio’s 0abc has great potential (silver and food consumption meta, etc) but he is taking his time to get it completed. And lastly Angen is doing great things with additional mechanics! Two other mods are just factions extension of the vanilla. Inspite of these efforts from the devs and modders there’s something lacking in the game huge enough to impact tremendous attention from people. And imo the game needs more realistic gameplay, the game needs more mechanics than just a fast clicker type of game. The spam mechanics has to go imo. If the mechanics stays AoE like I don’t think 0ad will improve more than what is present  

The devs need to have greater vision and not just tweaking the statusquo. 

RoN is imo the best balanced, very strategic and not just a spam units type of game. Who could have imagined a Aztec without economic bonus is the favorite faction of the pros  

And DoM by far has a very realistic mechanics, not perfect nor finished but a modder is making it very hard militarily (2-one hundred “Roman” raiders in one season), economic (winter effect) and QoL because the devs have a very attentive support. The optimization is not bad at all. The devs have no plans of making a paid dlc or any paid version or upgrades. They just want to keep improving the game little by little when necessary that every month a new version with added contents keep on coming.

 

Edited June 5, 2019 by Servo

[borg-]

1 hour ago, StopKillingMe said:

No - you are the *clearly* one who doesn't get it.  We *are* playing this game - and competitively.  It's quite obvious you are not a competitive player if you think that training military units for a rush from the CC is an effective strategy.  It isn't.  Good players boom women and techs first, then build two or three rax, then attack or defend.  If you start by training military units from the CC, you will lose.

Trying to tell me that this is a tech demo and nothing more is ridiculously absurd.  There is a game play lobby and it's easy to get a 1v1 rated game pretty much most of the day.  So you don't know what you are talking about.

I don't care how much whining some of you do - Celts and specifically Britons need a nerf.  Slingers need a nerf.  The people that are actually playing this game day to day know this - the people that are denying this or making excuses are either not playing, or are more interested in their mod than vanilla.

The Meta as established by top player Borg is to batch train women and tech up, then get up one or two defensive towers at your woodline, build 2 or 3 rax, and then from there different strategies can branch out.  If you don't play Borg's established Meta and you come up against someone that does, you will lose badly.  Britons are ridiculous - you get an extra scout, building the starting farmstead and storage pit increases your pop and delays the need to build the opening house, and you can go all in on a Slinger rush in Age 1 and it has devastating effect.  There is no Meta that has any kind of rush from military units from the CC - the fact that you think that is an issue is a clear indication that you are not playing on the ladder.

Once again, the Celts (Britons) need a nerf, and if that makes a new civ suddenly OP, that would be a very welcome change.  You give Borg Britons and he could easily take on 3 or 4 human 1300 level players and win.  You wanna win on the ladder?  Get a hold of a Borg recorded game, copy his startup build order, play Britons, spam Age 1 Slingers, attack, and keep attacking.  If you are doing this effectively, the fact that your opponent is in Age 2 doesn't matter.  There is no effective counter for massed slingers, they can destroy towers, houses, farms - you're toast.  These are cold hard *facts*, that are coming from experience.  And that is what makes an RTS good or not good, how it plays on the ladder.  DOtMW had Korean rush problem, AOM had the Poseidon cav rush problem, and both of them were fixed easily.  This is not a difficult problem.  It is easily fixed, as will the next OP civ that emerges will be just as easy to fix.

That's true, but do you think all of these problems resolve to slowing attack speed of slingers and javelins?

I've been trying to tell you this for days. The problem is the gameplay as a whole. We do not have immersion, the civilizations are all the same. etc. .. etc ..
What good is nerf slingers and javelins, if I'll never be able to use infantry decently? What good is nerf slingers and javelins, if I will never see champions in combat ?? What good is nerf slingers and javelins if we dont have good techs and unique techs ?? What good is nerf slingers and javelins if athens hero give +3 armour for all units and others heroes give 1?

The mod does all this and more. So this is not about mod x vanilla. 

The mod has an infinitely better gameplay than the vanilla, even if you make 100 changes in vanilla balancing, it will continue with problems and much worse compared to the mod.

Edited June 5, 2019 by borg-

[StopKillingMe]

And yet again, someone now wants to talk mods, and not vanilla gameplay.

 

Right now as I write this there are 23 games being played in the game lobby.  Good/Bad/or Indifferent - this is where the game is being played - in the Game Lobby of A23.  This is the code base that needs to be patched...it's where the players are.  I don't understand why so many of you want to move every single vanilla discussion into yet another debate about mods.

 

Edited June 5, 2019 by StopKillingMe

[borg-]

17 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

And yet again, someone now wants to talk mods, and not vanilla gameplay.

 

Right now as I write this there are 23 games being played in the game lobby.  Good/Bad/of Indifferent - this is where the game is being played - in the Game Lobby of A23.  This is the code base that needs to be patched...it's where the players are.  I don't understand why so many of you want to move every single vanilla discussion into yet another debate about mods.

 

You are the one who is creating this discussion.

The problem is that 90% of the active players would like to have the mod implemented, and you are part of the 10% that is going against it, alright, it's your right. The only problem is that you are going against the mod without having anything to offer, just bad changes.
It's not about my mod, it can be other mods too, or just a base of examples for future changes, I do not care, I just want something to be done, but not just changes sows.

I can very well do a patch right now and improve the gameplay for a24, that would be incredibly easy, I would take a maximum of two days, but I do not work like that. I like things well done.

then as we have already said, take the initiative and make the changes you need, no one is stopping you.

 

Edited June 5, 2019 by borg-

[Servo]

Not everytime a game is based on multiplayer type of game to be  gauged as good. Single player and modded games are equally important. 

Edited June 5, 2019 by Servo

[StopKillingMe]

11 minutes ago, borg- said:

You are the one who is creating this discussion.
It's not about my mod, it can be other mods too, or just a base of examples for future changes, I do not care, I just want something to be done, but not just changes sows.

I can very well do a patch right now and improve the gameplay for a24, that would be incredibly easy, I would take a maximum of two days, but I do not work like that. I like things well done.

 

I'm not playing your mod - the people I play on the ladder are not playing your mod.  I'm not going to install your mod and then not be able to get a game, I don't understand why this concept is so controversial, I don't understand why every road has to lead to your mod - this is an open source game, improving gameplay with something quick and dirty is better than nothing, and will be far better than getting into the quagmire discussion about your specific mod, especially since there are other mods besides yours.  Your massively changing the core game.  You just expect everyone to accept your one man show as the new game?

You want to rework the entire game and its not even in beta yet - I'm suggesting we just need to dial back the Celts a bit, and keep playing what we have.  Huge difference.   So respectfully - why do I have to wholesale accept the massive changes you have made in your mod, bearing in mind if I install it, I can't even play it on the ladder, right? 

Edited June 5, 2019 by StopKillingMe

[borg-]

11 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

I'm not playing your mod - the people I play on the ladder are not playing your mod.  I'm not going to install your mod and then not be able to get a game, I don't understand why this concept is so controversial, I don't understand why every road has to lead to your mod - this is an open source game, improving gameplay with something quick and dirty is better than nothing, and be far better than getting into the quagmire discussion about your specific mode, especially since there are other mods besides yours.

You want to rework the entire game and its not even in beta yet - I'm suggesting we just need to dial back the Celts a bit, and keep playing what we have.  Huge difference.   So respectfully - why do I have to wholesale accept the massive changes you have made in your mod, bearing in mind if I install it, I can't even play it on the ladder, right? 

So make the changes and make it happen

I can also use the same line of thinking. Why should we accept suggestions for changes from a guy that started playing yesterday, has a 1200 rating, and until yesterday did not know how to create units in batch??  You create units one by one. Do you really think you can say "balancing gauls is izi"??

In my opinion you still have no ability to know how to balance the game, maybe in the future. There are players here who have been playing and working in the game for years, certainly know a lot more than you do. So why go against everyone and think you have full conviction that your changes are good, even people saying they are not ??

Slinger with -50% attack speed It's proof of that.

Edited June 5, 2019 by borg-

[Lion.Kanzen]

37 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

This is the code base that needs to be patched

Does that mean you're already starting to make the patch? that is nice, thank you.

[StopKillingMe]

I'm just going to restate my opinion:

 

1.  Mods should not become part of vanilla - they are a separate thing.  What we have now should be preserved and incrementally improved.

2.  A process for patching for balance needs to be established, independent of any other objective, focused 100% on improving competitive MP.  It should not depend on any other need, like adding units, changing what buildings can train what, or anything else like that - it should be solely focused on improving what is currently being played.

3.  Balance changes need to be clearly communicated to the player community, what is changed, why it is changed, and what the desired outcome is.

4.  There is really only one effective proving ground for game balance, ladder play in the Game Lobby.

 

Patch 1.01 should be solely dedicated to solely nerfing the Celts, and nothing else.  Ladder play once this patch is implemented will reveal what needs to be done in 1.02, probably in as little time as a few weeks.

 

1 minute ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Does that mean you're already starting to make the patch? that is nice, thank you.

Welcome to ignore.

Edited June 5, 2019 by StopKillingMe

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, StopKillingMe said:

Welcome to ignore.

but I'm very nice with you.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

Mods should not become part of vanilla - they are a separate thing.  What we have now should be preserved and incrementally improved.

nope , basically a patch is a mod in some sense.

[StopKillingMe]

22 minutes ago, borg- said:

So make the changes and make it happen

I can also use the same line of thinking. Why should we accept suggestions for changes from a guy that started playing yesterday, has a 1200 rating, and until yesterday did not know how to create units in batch??  You create units one by one. Do you really think you can say "balancing gauls is izi"??

In my opinion you still have no ability to know how to balance the game, maybe in the future. There are players here who have been playing and working in the game for years, certainly know a lot more than you do. So why go against everyone and think you have full conviction that your changes are good, even people saying they are not ??

Slinger with -50% attack speed It's proof of that.

I knew this attack would be coming from you.  It's very predictable.  Once again, the Celts need nerfing in vanilla, that's the topic of this thread, if you know best on how to do that, then state that.  I'm 54 years old, so nice try.  Your flame-bait isn't going to work.

 

1.  Vanilla should not include code from mods.

2.  Celts need to be nerfed.

 

 

[borg-]

2 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

I knew this attack would be coming from you.  It's very predictable.  Once again, the Celts need nerfing in vanilla, that's the topic of this thread, if you know best on how to do that, then state that.  I'm 54 years old, so nice try.  Your flame-bait isn't going to work.

 

1.  Vanilla should not include code from mods.

2.  Celts need to be nerfed.

 

 

I just used the same way of thinking, why do something if ...?

Anyway, I'm going to leave the topic, I wish you all the luck with your changes. hugs!!!

[StopKillingMe]

I get that you want the game completely reworked...you are just going to have to accept that some people don't agree with that approach.

[Lion.Kanzen]

27 minutes ago, borg- said:

Why should we accept suggestions for changes from a guy that started playing yesterday,

he is new guy? OMG. OMG, lol.

30 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

I don't understand why every road has to lead to your mod 

or Delenda Est mod. (specially the counters).

 

32 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

I'm not playing your mod - the people I play on the ladder are not playing your mod.  I'm not going to install your mod and then not be able to get a game, I don't understand why this concept is so controversial, I don't understand why every road has to lead to your mod - this is an open source game, improving gameplay with something quick and dirty is better than nothing, and will be far better than getting into the quagmire discussion about your specific mod, especially since there are other mods besides yours.  Your massively changing the core game.  You just expect everyone to accept your one man show as the new game?

You want to rework the entire game and its not even in beta yet - I'm suggesting we just need to dial back the Celts a bit, and keep playing what we have.  Huge difference.   So respectfully - why do I have to wholesale accept the massive changes you have made in your mod, bearing in mind if I install it, I can't even play it on the ladder, right? 

There was a time back in the 90's where games were corrected at the beginning, by the way from DarcRaven I learned humility, not trusting myself with the fact that the team knows what it is doing, especially since the departure of MythosRuler, since then the course of that part was lost.

the team barely know what they doing in gameplay. DarcRaven show a complete detailed new gameplay. a document.

you are missing other points but... I don't want give  to you all tips.