Civ: Germans (Cimbri, Suebians, Goths)

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

The Germans

Cimbri, Suebians, Goths

 

 

https://github.com/JustusAvramenko/delenda_est/commit/74653b71376ba38593f675e4051586769292b59b

https://github.com/JustusAvramenko/delenda_est

 

 

 

 

Need halp from our resident historians, artists, and reference gatherers.

 

Units

Since the Suebi were a tribal confederation, units will have tribal designations, for example: Marcomanni Spearman, Quadi Light Cavalry, etc. 

Goths will represent the "later" Germans, with round shields, more helmets, more chain mail, greater cavalry.

Suebian units look like "early" Germans, with hexagonal shields, fewer helmets, less chain mail, greater reliance on infantry.

Basic units - Bare chested or Animal hide. Pants. Shield. Weapon. No helmet.

Advanced units - Shirt. Pants. Shield. Weapon. No helmet.

Elite units - Shirt. Pants. Cape. Shield. Weapon. Simple Germanic helmet. 

Champions and Heroes -  Heavy body armor. Germanic helmet.

 

Suebian Heroes

 

Ariovistus

• Leader of the Suebi and other allied Germanic peoples in the second quarter of the 1st century BC. He and his followers took part in a war in Gaul, assisting the Arverni and Sequani in defeating their rivals, the Aedui. They then settled in large numbers into conquered Gallic territory, in the Alsace region. They were defeated, however, in the Battle of Vosges and driven back over the Rhine in 58 BC by Julius Caesar.
• https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ariovistus

 

Maroboduus

• King of the Marcomanni, who were Germanic Suebian people. He spent part of his youth in Rome, and returning, found his people under pressure from invasions by the Roman empire between the Rhine and Elbe. He led them into the forests of Bohemia, adjacent to the Quadi who already lived nearby, and established a large alliance.
• https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Maroboduus

 

Ballomar

• Leader of the Marcomanni. At first a Roman client ruler; during the first Marcomannic War he formed an alliance with other Germanic tribes and invaded Italy.
• https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Ballomar

 

Arminius

• Was a Roman officer and later chieftain of the Germanic Cherusci tribe who is best known for commanding an alliance of Germanic tribes at the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest in 9 AD, in which three Roman legions under the command of general Publius Quinctilius Varus were destroyed. His victory at Teutoburg Forest would precipitate the Roman Empire's permanent strategic withdrawal from Magna Germania.
• https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Arminius
• Found in the Mercenary Camp.

 

Goth Heroes

Alaric I

• History
• Wiki Link

 

Theodoric I

• History
• Wiki Link

 

Theodoric the Great

• History
• Wiki Link

 

Buildings

All wooden, less health than "standard" civs. "Walls" are a wooden stockade, halfway in strength between palisades and stone walls. "Fortress" is wooden.

Building "shapes" should roughly follow Empires Ascendant standard, but with a Germanic veneer or aesthetic. There can be some unique exceptions for visual variety however. Maybe houses are longer than they are wide with a rectangular footprint, in contrast to other civs whose houses generally fit a square footprint.

Suebians

Rally Point Flag

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General Look References

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Civic Center

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House

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Storehouse

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Farmstead/Corral (combined building)

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Dock

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Market

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Temple

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Glory Statue

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The "totem pole" (for lack of a better term) on the right, behind the horseman and dog.

Forge (aka "Blacksmith")

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Defense Tower

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Barracks

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Stable

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Archery Range

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Great Hall (Special Building)

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Siege Workshop

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Fortress

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Town Walls

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Wonder

 

 

 

Goths

Civic Center

House

Storehouse

Farmstead/Granary

Dock

Temple

Glory Statue

Forge (aka "Blacksmith")

Defense Tower

Barracks

Stable

Archery Range

Siege Workshop

Fortress

Spoiler

Town Walls

Wonder

 

Gameplay

Suebians still use standard territorial gameplay, but have an ox cart dropsite. Later Goths will have more of a nomadic gameplay (like Huns or Scythians) with no territory. It would be interesting if Hyrule:Conquest's hero selection UI could be used to "split" the Goths into Visigoths and Ostrogoths.

 

Art Needed

Each one needs its own civ emblem. Unit head models with the "Suebian Knot" and beards for the Suebian units. New unit body and shield textures. Some new helmet models. New building art set.

Edited August 5, 2023 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Lion.Kanzen]

I was starting to helping you with Scythian banners and some icons...

can be nice the idea as said what kind of  bonus for them, description you have.

is related with Cimbrii faction (in your mod) or you are seeing as Suebii Confederation of Tribes.

[Stan`]

Let me fetch some of the old references from the art repository, not the art_source one, of which you have access I believe. I guess @Genava55 and @Germanic_celt79 could be of assistance. Maybe @Juli51 wants to do some concept art  @Andrettin

 

EDIT: Here you go. 

 

Props

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Units

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Buildings

 

 

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germmine.bmp

 

 

 

Edit: relevant threads

 

Voices 

 

[Genava55]

The time frame involved is basically from Ariovistus (58 BC) to Hermeric (441 AD) ?  Focusing on the Suebian tribes ?

[Lion.Kanzen]

55 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

The time frame involved is basically from Ariovistus (58 BC) to Hermeric (441 AD) ?  Focusing on the Suebian tribes ?

yes must be focused in some era of their development

 

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The Germanic tribes seem to have originated in a homeland in southern Scandinavia (Sweden and Norway, with the Jutland area of northern Denmark, along with a very narrow strip of Baltic coastline). They had been settled here for over two thousand years following theIndo-European migrations. The Germanic ethnic group began as a division of the western edge of late proto-Indo-European dialects around 3300 BC, splitting away from a general westwards migration to head towards the southern coastline of the Baltic Sea. By the time the Germanic tribes were becoming key players in the politics of Western Europe in the last two centuries BC, the previously dominant Celtswere on the verge of being conquered and dominated by Rome. They had already been pushed out of northern and central Europe by a mass of Germanic tribes which were steadily carving out a new homeland.

The Suevi were a confederation of Germanic peoples (at least, mostly Germanic) which came into existence by the first century AD, and perhaps earlier. However, the name seems to have had origins as that of an individual tribe before that time. Spelled Suevi or Suebi by various authors, the core tribe migrated southwards from the southern Baltic coast in concert with many other Germanic tribes. In fact, the Romans knew the sea as Mare Suebicum, so familiar were they with the Suebi presence there. In the first century BC the tribe arrived on the east bank of the Rhine, with the River Main on their southern flank. Settling here, they were neighboured to the north by the Cherusci, and their presence survives in the historic name of the region, Swabia.

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click on the map for very large size.

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Controversy exists as to whether particular tribes were German or Gaulish (Celtic), and the Suevi encompassed people who may straddle both definitions. The subject is discussed in greater detail in the accompanying feature. Their name comes from the proto-Germanic word 'sweboz', for 'one's own' people, or fellow countrymen. Certainly under Ariovistus, the Suevi had a foot in both camps. They made a foray across the Rhine as the leaders of a small confederation of Germanic tribes. There they became involved in Gaulish and Roman politics, before being forced back into the area that was becoming known as Germania. Following this, they drifted into modern lower central Germany, taking elements of their confederation with them and soon adding new tribes to it.

By the end of the first century AD they were at the head of a confederation that numbered at least seventeen tribes both major and minor, at least one of which, the Lugii, was a confederation in its own right. The rest included the tribes of the Alemanni and Hermunduri (to the north-east), the Langobards (but perhaps only western elements of their number), the Marcomanni (to the west, beyond the Hermunduri), the Quadi and Semnones (to the north-east of the Hermunduri), and the Warini. The term 'Suevi' seems to have been used almost casually to describe a wide range of German peoples. The Heruli may also have been involved and the Angles in the Cimbric Peninsula certainly were, along with elements to their immediate south who, by the beginning of the fifth century, were under the rule of an Anglian prince named Witta, of Wehta's Folk.

The Suevi confederation remained relatively quiet after the first century AD. The disruption caused by the Hunnic invasion further east forced the main body of Suevi to migrate across the Rhine and into Spain, where they formed a kingdom in the hostile mountains of Galicia. Their territory also extended down in a broad swathe into much of modern Portugal, and it proved to be fairly stable.

(Information by Peter Kessler, with additional information by Edward Dawson, from The Oxford History of England: Roman Britain, Peter Salway, from Complete Works of Tacitus, Alfred John Church, William Jackson Brodribb, & Lisa Cerrato, from The Barbarians: Warriors & Wars of the Dark Ages, Tim Newark (Blandford Press, 1985), from Geography, Ptolemy, and from External Links: The Works of Julius Caesar: Gallic Wars, and Geography, Strabo (H C Hamilton & W Falconer, London, 1903, Perseus Online Edition).)

we can take a base large tribes like Semnones?

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The Semnones are described by Tacitus as "the oldest and noblest of the Suebi", and, like the Suebi described by Caesar, they have 100 cantons. Tacitus says that "the vastness of their community makes them regard themselves as the head of the Suevic race".[33] According to Ptolemy the "Suevi Semnones" live upon the Elbe and stretch as far east as a river apparently named after them, the Suevus, probably the Oder. South of them he places the Silingi, and then, again upon the Elbe, the Calucones. To the southeast further up the upper Elbe he places not the Hermunduri mentioned by other authors (who had possibly moved westwards and become Ptolemy's "Teuriochaemai", and the later Thuringii), but the Baenochaemae (whose name appears to be somehow related to the modern name Bohemia, and somehow derived from the older placename mentioned by Strabo and Tacitus as the capital of King Marobodus after he settled his Marcomanni in the Hercynian forest). A monument confirms that the Juthungi, who fought the Romans in the 3rd century, and were associated with the Alamanni, were Semnones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semnones

 

....

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[...]After the death of Drusus, the Cherusci annihilated three legions at the Battle of Teutoburg Forest and thereafter "... the empire ... was checked on the banks of the Rhine." While elements of the Suevi may have been involved, this was an alliance mainly made up of non-Suebic tribes from northwestern Germany, the Cherusci, Marsi, Chatti, Bructeri, Chauci, and Sicambri. The kingdom of the Marcomanni and their allies stayed out of the conflict and when Maroboduus was sent the head of the defeated Roman leader Varus, he sent it on to Rome for burial. Within his own alliance were various Suebic peoples, Hermunduri, Quadi, Semnones, Lugii, Zumi, Butones, Mugilones, Sibini and Langobards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suebi

Edited May 30, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen

[Genava55]

The Lombards: The Ancient Longobards - Neil Christie

The Lombards, also known as the Longobards, were a Germanic tribe whose fabled origins lay in the barbarian realm of Scandinavia. After centuries of obscurity during the long period of Roman domination in Europe, the Lombards began a concerted migration south-eastwards, coming to prominence immediately after the fall of Rome.

Pushing across the Danube to occupy Hungary, the tribe emerged as a powerful protagonist in the former heartland of the Empire in the early sixth century AD. The Lombards subsequently invaded Italy in AD 568-569, where they successfully countered the Byzantines and established a kingdom based on the fertile north Italian plains. This endured for more than two centuries before its conquest by Charlemagne, and even after this defeat, a Lombard state continued to exist in southern Italy until the eleventh century.

In this book, the author combines many sources, archaeological and historical, to offer a fresh and vividly detailed picture of Lombard society - its people, settlements, material and spiritual culture - and its evolution from martial 'barbarian' tribe to complex urbanized state.  

 

The Alamanni and Rome 213-496 - John F. Drinkwater

The Alamanni and Rome focuses upon the end of the Roman Empire. From the third century AD, barbarians attacked and then overran the west. Some--Goths, Franks, Saxons--are well known, others less so. The latter include the Alamanni, despite the fact that their name is found in the French (''Allemagne'') and Spanish (''Alemania'') for ''Germany.'' This pioneering study, the first in English, uses new historical and archaeological findings to reconstruct the origins of the Alamanni, their settlements, their politics, and their society, and to establish the nature of their relationship with Rome. John Drinkwater discovers the cause of their modern elusiveness in their high level of dependence on the Empire. Far from being dangerous invaders, they were often the prey of emperors intent on acquiring military reputations. When much of the western Empire fell to the Franks, so did the Alamanni, without ever having produced their own ''successor kingdom.''  

 

Edit:

Варвары. Древние германцы: быт, религия, культура

Малькольм ТоддВарвары. Древние германцы. Быт, религия, культура Everyday Life of the Barbarians: Goths, Franks, & Vandals От издателяАвтор этой книги попытался реконструировать социальную структуру и каждодневную жизнь варваров на основе обобщающих выводов археологов, наблюдений искусствоведов и лингвистов. Рассматривается промежуток времени от II в. до н.э., когда цивилизованные народы впервые обратили внимание на варваров, до периода Великого Переселения народов IV-VI веков н.э.

Everyday Life of the Barbarians: Goths, Franks and Vandals

With drawings by Eva Wilson.

The "Barbarians" of the classical world - especially the Goths, Franks and Vandals - have been traditionally dismissed as savage hordes who sacked Rome and destroyed her Empire. It is only the discoveries of modern archaeology that have established a true picture of these versatile Germanic tribes who originally inhabited north-west Europe beyond the frontiers of the Roman Empire and who later penetrated every corner of Europe.

Like the Celts, these tribes excelled in the arts of war - but warfare was far from being the whole of their life. They delighted in feasting, music, dancing and gaming. The tribes were organised in a rigorous social hierarchy and they practised a remarkably advanced system of agriculture. Their houses and furniture were simple but they took a particular pride in personal decoration: the surviving artifacts - especially ornamental metalwork - show a magnificent tradition of craftsmanship.

Trade contacts, too, reveal a lively commerce with the Roman provinces and with their nomadic neighbours.
This vivid and rounded portrait of the daily life of Rome's northern neighbours is a fascinating addition to the Publishers' Everyday Life series and a valuable complementary study to the volume on "Ancient Rome".

Malcolm Todd, who is Lecturer in Archaeology at the University of Nottingham, has made use of his own research, and the illustrations - almost 100 in all - include a great deal of unfamiliar material.

The Early Germans by Malcolm Todd

The growing number of volumes in the "Peoples of Europe" series are generally quite useful to students of early medieval history; at less than 300 pages, they do well as surveys. This one, unfortunately, is one of the less readable efforts. Todd is interested in the Germanic tribes and their migrations from the early Roman Empire up to about 700 A.D., but he wanders from a chronological coverage of all the multitude of Germanic peoples (who never thought of themselves as "Germans" in the first place), to a topical one (chapters on economy and agriculture, social institutions, burial practices, trade and diplomacy, art and technology, etc), to a geographical survey divided into sections on Goths, Vandals, Franks, Burgundians, Gepids, Lombards, and (oddly) Scandinavians. It's a confusing book to read, with various groups appearing (naturally) in each other's chapters. Todd also mentions in passing specialized information or rival interpretations of the sources that he apparently assumes everyone knows -- which is a bad assumption in a survey of this kind. While there's useful stuff here, I would not suggest this as a first resource for someone new to the field. Instead, I would recommend the separate books in this series by James on the Franks, Heather on the Goths, and Christie on the Lombards -- and Heather's latest, _The Fall of the Roman Empire_ (2006), over all of them.

Goths in the Fourth Century

This volume brings together many important historical texts, the majority of them (speeches of Themistius, the Passion of St Saba, and evidence relating to the life and work of Ulfila) not previously available in English translation. "...a compact and exciting do-it-yourself kit for the student of Gothic history... outstanding."—Bryn Mawr Classical Review

Edited June 2, 2020 by Genava55

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 5/30/2019 at 3:06 PM, Genava55 said:

The time frame involved is basically from Ariovistus (58 BC) to Hermeric (441 AD) ?  Focusing on the Suebian tribes ?

That is a large time frame. Would unit types and equipment have changed greatly in the intervening years? What about architecture? 

[Genava55]

1 minute ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

That is a large time frame. Would unit types and equipment have changed greatly in the intervening years?

Yes it changed, the Suebians during 1st century BC and 2st century AD are mostly using hexagonal shields and have little body protection. During the 3rd century AD, all the Germans started to use rounds shields and we find some helmets and chainmail. There are also the development of the angon and of the spatha. 

Clearly, before the Marcomannic wars it is difficult to gather enough information to build a complete faction.  

12 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

What about architecture? 

Most of the archeological  information on the Suebians comes from the later period. But the general basis of the houses didn't have change. The only thing is that there is more evidence for fortifications in the later period.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

34 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Yes it changed, the Suebians during 1st century BC and 2st century AD are mostly using hexagonal shields and have little body protection. During the 3rd century AD, all the Germans started to use rounds shields and we find some helmets and chainmail. There are also the development of the angon and of the spatha. 

For the Suebians, I'm thinking a more "early" interpretation for their look, with the hexagonal shields and low instance of armor. If I were to add the Goths, they'd be a later interpretation.

 

34 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Most of the archeological  information on the Suebians comes from the later period. But the general basis of the houses didn't have change. The only thing is that there is more evidence for fortifications in the later period.

Right, a wooden longhouse is a wooden longhouse. For gameplay purposes, I think some kind of fortification would be necessary. Probably wooden. Any walls would be a wooden stockade, halfway in strength between palisades and stone walls. 

Thematically, I'd go for a more "settled" interpretation for their gameplay, with territories, etc. While the later Goths would have some "nomadic civ" elements, like ox cart dropsites, etc. 

 

Heroes could be Ariovistas, Arminius, and? 

Edited June 1, 2019 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

For the Suebians, I'm thinking a more "early" interpretation for their look, with the hexagonal shields and low instance of armor. If I were to add the Goths, they'd be a later interpretation.

 

Right, a wooden longhouse is a wooden longhouse. For gameplay purposes, I think some kind of fortification would be necessary. Probably wooden. Any walls would be a wooden stockade, halfway in strength between palisades and stone walls. 

Thematically, I'd go for a more "settled" interpretation for their gameplay, with territories, etc. While the later Goths would have some "nomadic civ" elements. 

and use some Millenium norse buildings? (some)  

yes they are more settled than Cimbrii.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Would an artist be willing to make some Germanic head models? Mainly, we're talking about ponytails+beards, Suebian knots+beards, and maybe 3 female head variants. References to follow.

Any helmets will come later.

Edited June 1, 2019 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Germanic head references, for any artist who is willing. I think these models can just be edits of the existing models (ideally), and can be added to the core game probably.

Ponytails

The game has a ponytail male head model and beareded head models, but not together. Germans definitely would benefit from bearded head models + maybe a couple of ponytail variations (props?).

Above: 2 variations. Ponytail on back of head and ponytail closer to crown.

 

Above: Some ponytail variants at the top of the head. Short.

 

Suebian Knot

This would be specific to the Suebi faction units. This is a knot of hair off to the side (right side?) of the head. Maybe 2 variants, one lower and one higher.

 

Braided Female Hair models

It would be cool to have unique head models for the Germanic women. Perhaps 3 or 4 variants.

Above: Says "Vikings" but I think would be apropos for Germanic women as well (Nordic and Germanic peoples are related)

Edited June 1, 2019 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

23 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

and use some Millenium norse buildings? (some)  

 

I looked at Millennium AD the other night to check out the buildings again. There are things I like about the Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Carolingian building sets, but the textures are all incompatible. The Civic Centers need work the most (not quite up to snuff compared to core game models). I think using them as placeholder art would work though.

Edited June 1, 2019 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Stan`]

What about the references I posted above. Anything you like there ?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Symbol Valknut? https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Valknut

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

20 hours ago, Stan` said:

What about the references I posted above. Anything you like there ?

Some of the stuff looks good, but I can't vouch for the realism.

 

This guy sketched some stuff.

On 3/22/2014 at 10:34 AM, Le Druide Gaulois said:

I just made some concepts. To the left there are 2 different sets for houses, a farmstead and a scout tower, and to the right different models for a civic centre.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

12 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Symbol Valknut? https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Valknut

I made as svg symbol only needs a properly shield.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Just now, Lion.Kanzen said:

I made as svg symbol only needs a properly shield.

perhaps a couple different variations? 

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

which colors are good?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 minute ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

which colors are good?

I am not sure. For the faction symbol, it'll probably be white, but for shields and stuff, maybe player color.

[Lion.Kanzen]

5 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I am not sure. For the faction symbol, it'll probably be white, but for shields and stuff, maybe player color.

I mean the emblem.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Just now, Lion.Kanzen said:

I mean the emboem.

White on a wooden or leather shield.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

White on a wooden or leather shield.

I made the anglo-saxon shield. only need replace the symbol and the hue.

[Lion.Kanzen]

47 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

White on a wooden or leather shield.

plain color concept.

WIP...

[Lion.Kanzen]