Please reduce speed of battering ram

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

33 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

I really like huge range by Archers but if is realistic.

 

Realistically people don't walk around with a "vision range" and other weird game world features like this.  

[Hannibal_Barca]

72m isn't far for someone trained with a bow

[Lion.Kanzen]

Just now, Hannibal_Barca said:

72m isn't far for someone trained with a bow

All bows have same opportunity of shot a log range_

I think Composite bow is superior but I'm not sure distance.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

16 hours ago, Hannibal_Barca said:

72m isn't far for someone trained with a bow

Yes but people see further than 80 meters or whatever the standard vision range is. And a meter in game is not the same as a real meter proportionately. 

[greedisgood500]

On 8/22/2018 at 2:05 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Well, archer range is ridiculous too. lol But I get your point. 

 

On 8/22/2018 at 2:25 PM, Lion.Kanzen said:

@Thorfinn the Shallow Minded what  you think about the real bows vs real defenses vs siege catapuls(range)

I really like huge range by Archers but if is realistic.

 

 

I mostly play vs AI not really good player:
I really like the longer range of archer(now some race got better archer and balance is harder this way)
the general longer range archer and siege allow me to lay down a formation army marching slowly and taking out enemy camp 1 step at an time
the 72 range mean cavalry cannot rush and kill your 20 bowman in 5 second you can pull back the archer and let those line of pike man walk in (even further back in line like 90 range)
in between front line and archer line is healer and skirmisher (stone thrower Rock!),if the formation setting is more easy to control it would be much better lol...moving units group in battle as a formation will bugged them so much they stuck or doing nothing and let ppl hit them when running around...I still learning the hotkey etc might just missed something plain simple.
it would be super prefect if we got long spear man that hitting like 3 meter with hack damage lol.
 

actually how to make a formation that like an hamburger  the meat in side is range unit and healer...the box not really efficient as most range unit are wasted .

about ram should we give them ability to garrison man to move a bit faster?or give option to make lighter and faster ram that break easily (you only need that big wood log to ram anything,could possible to make out of a trees nearby or train normally)and a more costly ram(well armored , slower need to build from a building )that really hard to kill in case you need to break really really big wall up base.
trying to balancing ram in 1 single unit seem to hard.Too fast too OP,too slow may prolong the game unneeded.You could choose to use a faster ram if you expect low resistance for an faster clear up speed,or ambush player weak spot without much guard.
The cheaper ram should not benefit from iron plate upgrade but the siege damage increase,seem make sense that way.
since it mostly wood only and structure is more simple the ram should be a bit lower in pierce (like to about 20 point :90%) maybe 4 point crush armor(34%) .Hp drop to 350.
cost change to 200 wood and 100 metal (i think the biggest trees is 200 wood) so you could get from a trees convert it to a ram or build from fortress with the same cost)
the speed should be keep the same(maybe even faster but i guess we need to make it less tanky in that case)

[Rolf Dew]

What about a ram limit? With maybe one added per an age? Perhaps a limit of 4 or 5.

[macemen]

41 minutes ago, Rolf Dew said:

What about a ram limit? With maybe one added per an age? Perhaps a limit of 4 or 5.

I think limits like that should be avoided if possible. They usually feel quite arbitrary. Instead, the game should be balanced such that it simply doesn't make sense to spam just rams. They already have a very effective counter unit: sword units will deal with rams with ease so if one expects the enemy to deploy rams one just needs to field sword units to counter them. Champion spear units also deal significant hack damage in addition to pierce, so they can deal with rams too.

Edited September 14, 2018 by macemen

[greedisgood500]

just played some game vs Iberian  and see how ram getting complain.

I think most siege weapon need to add a turn rat and mini-rotation circle,except your stuff getting pull as a cart could have a smaller rotation circle.

i just got my siege cart unpacked (running pass) 2 hit destroyed by a ram .it hit it in front first and when my siege moved be hide the siege ram it turn a full 180 and strike the second time....totally unrealistic ,i think aoe2 also got this problem but their ram run much slower and attack very slow.

siege tower also need a bit changing(I read some post said people complain playing it like a tank),I actually ok with playing siege like a tank ,I remember watch some old documentary the first tank in the world was basically a mini siege tower (using metal and engine ).It move so so slow that walking is faster and only have a few machine gun on it(seem like was mark i tank after google search),as long as bullet(arrow) cannot kill the person inside and you can slowly move while shoot back(arrow),it give enough value for them to keep making better version...
I think we living at modern time find a better use of siege tower then 0 a.d people.changing the turn rate and rotation circle thing should fix that too(all siege unit is too agile).btw why on earth archer range is shorter when I load them inside siege tower???

also warship range seem bugged? it said 70+ but it was much shorter....am i missing miss read the unit data?

adding some new tactics to ram user?give ram a charge ability that run in straight line and do like 20% more damage,but lower 10% damage(your guy inside the ram need to catch some breath) for next 5-6 hit(u have a total lose of half a attack damage from 500%[6hit] to 460%[6hit]) .front load damage always good and you get to melee your target faster ,the only problem is you need a straight line to use it.

[macemen]

On 9/14/2018 at 7:04 PM, greedisgood500 said:

adding some new tactics to ram user?give ram a charge ability that run in straight line and do like 20% more damage,but lower 10% damage(your guy inside the ram need to catch some breath) for next 5-6 hit(u have a total lose of half a attack damage from 500%[6hit] to 460%[6hit]) .front load damage always good and you get to melee your target faster ,the only problem is you need a straight line to use it.

A ram charging? Sorry, no offense meant, by I think that is ridiculous. I think for the poor guys inside it was enough work to just move the ram with walking speed. Besides what value would charging provide to a ram? A ram uses a beam suspended via chains/straps. The energy of the charge would be entirely dissipated by the suspension.

I agree that a charge would be nice... for spear cavalry, but not for ram.

[Guest]

(Maybe rams should be capturable again)

[dmzerocold]

Regarding siege weapons in history we can find different strategy to siege

- Using ram / mobile towers / stone thrower (catapult) / balista ... these are exist in 0 A.D game

These are not exist in game , but would be nice if we can have them as a upgrade for troops to use them 

- Using ladder , to conquer a tower or pass a wall and go into a siege

And when they go inside through the ladder , they should be able to kill garrisoned soldier  

- Making fire to destroy wood-walls / structures

- Building "Not-mobilize " RAM , under walls or structure 

 

Also agree with you that RAM should not be faster than a infantry  

Edited September 17, 2018 by dmzerocold

[macemen]

56 minutes ago, dmzerocold said:

And when they go inside through the ladder , they should be able to kill garrisoned soldier  

This is an interesting idea, though, IMO, really hard to implement right. In general fights that take place *inside* a building (been suggested in other threads, as a mean to capture or raise buildings) are problematic. How do you decide which warrior wins? Do you simulate a fight? How do you communicate progress/success/failure to the user? What happens if one or both fighting parties are ranged units? Do they use their ranged attack inside the building? What if the garrisoned unit is cavalry, elephant or siege engine?

I think the current system of units waiving their weapons outside the building, if slightly ridiculous, makes the most sense for an RTS. It gives good visibility of what is happening and opportunity to intervene for both parties.

[dmzerocold]

1 minute ago, macemen said:

How do you decide which warrior wins?

My suggestion:

for example when you order your troops (lets say 100 warrior) to invade a tower which for example has 10 warrior garrisoned inside , and you already upgraded ladder option for your troops

1- it should takes time your troops put ladder on tower (lets say 10 second)

2- troops cannot go inside , fast and all together (lets say , 2 warior every 5 seconds )

3- we dont need to show what happen to those wariors inside of building,  for each warrior reach inside we kill a warrior inisde of tower ... for example for every 3 attacker warior 1 garrisoned unit reduce (killed - both killed)

Actually this upgrade can help your troops to capture a building much faster when its garrisoned by enemy troops 

Tower also can have some upgrades to reduce the speed of attackers, increase number of casualties for attackers , (boiling water  etc)

 

13 minutes ago, macemen said:

cavalry, elephant or siege engine

Elephant can garrison in tower ?  i didnt know then , it is dangerous for themself , attakers can start a fire and all garrisoned units will flee .. kidding

In reality , when you garrison a cavarly/elepant  in a tower ,  bascially you are not using the horse for example horseman will stand and defend the tower as a infantry right? also archers also may not use sword inside of building , so we can say inside of tower we have man to man melee fight

[Guest]

It makes it impossible to the player in the garrison to tactically manueover and manage his units to win. Also, someone can just attack with nearly dead units. IMO, this makes things too complex.

[dmzerocold]

3 minutes ago, (-_-) said:

It makes it impossible to the player in the garrison to tactically manueover and manage his units to win. Also, someone can just attack with nearly dead units. IMO, this makes things too complex.

But really good if we can have it , if not 100% pefect but would be nice ... because ladder had HUGE part in ancient siege 

 

[greedisgood500]

4 hours ago, macemen said:

A ram charging? Sorry, no offense meant, by I think that is ridiculous. I think for the poor guys inside it was enough work to just move the ram with walking speed. Besides what value would charging provide to a ram? A ram uses a beam suspended via chains/straps. The energy of the charge would be entirely dissipated by the suspension.

I agree that a charge would be nice... for spear cavalry, but not for ram.

sorry never push a ram in my life indeed that was a poor soul inside lol(don't think about that suspended /chains stuff when I suggesting,i also thinking we might get a ligher ram without too much protection so it could run a bit faster).
charging the ram reach the target faster is huge advantage for melee siege unit(image you charge elephant into enemy building...once you hit the buildings not only u start to damage it faster but also your surface area is reduced >less cavalry /sword can work on you.I did think it might be too harsh to ask for a charging ram .

I noticed the game have run/walk speed it seem to planned to have such a things.we need to see charging spear cavalry vs spear inf. formation epic battle mode ...!

[macemen]

3 hours ago, dmzerocold said:

3- we dont need to show what happen to those wariors inside of building,  for each warrior reach inside we kill a warrior inisde of tower ... for example for every 3 attacker warior 1 garrisoned unit reduce (killed - both killed) 

This would mean that inside the tower, a slinger clad in cloth and armed with a knife is equivalent to a champion swordsmen, armed and armored to the teeth. Sounds very wrong to me.

[dmzerocold]

1 minute ago, macemen said:

This would mean that inside the tower, a slinger clad in cloth and armed with a knife is equivalent to a champion swordsmen, armed and armored to the teeth. Sounds very wrong to me.

we can set weight based on unit type

[macemen]

2 hours ago, greedisgood500 said:

sorry never push a ram in my life indeed that was a poor soul inside lol(don't think about that suspended /chains stuff when I suggesting,i also thinking we might get a ligher ram without too much protection so it could run a bit faster). charging the ram reach the target faster is huge advantage for melee siege unit(image you charge elephant into enemy building...once you hit the buildings not only u start to damage it faster but also your surface area is reduced >less cavalry /sword can work on you.

In real sieges the speed of the ram was not something they optimized for, instead they went for as much protection as possible. Since rams are almost impregnable  to missiles it does not matter how fast it gets to the target. As for melee attackers, they can just follow the ram, which has to stop when it reaches its target anyway, so I don't see why would speed be an advantage here.
I can see speed being an advantage if the ram would be able to outrun any melee attackers, allowing for blitz like attacks on the enemy base. But that sounds absurd, a man pushing a ram can never be faster than a man running *without* pushing a ram.

2 hours ago, greedisgood500 said:

I did think it might be too harsh to ask for a charging ram .

Nothing is too harsh to ask here, don't worry. I just found you suggestion funny when I imagined a ram charging in my head. But I'm just a freeloader here, people who actually contribute might have very different opinion than me.

[macemen]

3 hours ago, dmzerocold said:

But really good if we can have it , if not 100% pefect but would be nice ... because ladder had HUGE part in ancient siege 

I think ladders could be added to the game without the controversial invisible garrison fight feature, as a mean to scale walls, much like the siege towers currently, without the elevated cost (and the added protection) of the latter. That's what they were used for after all.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

18 hours ago, macemen said:

I think ladders could be added to the game without the controversial invisible garrison fight feature, as a mean to scale walls, much like the siege towers currently, without the elevated cost (and the added protection) of the latter. That's what they were used for after all.

I think ladders could work if all wall models were readjusted to be a standard height. 

[Stan`]

I think coding ladders is pretty hard. You have to touch at least AI, Unit AI, Pathfinder.

Then you have to make animations for it.

[Guest]

It would be worth the effort if/when its decided to include bridges. Both are practically the same thing (to an extent).

[thankforpie]

althrough im new, i noticed typical game looks like players make a lot of archers for the back and a lot of melee for the front and they also include siege machines. my fav civs dont have battering rams so i send 5 elephants. my enemy sends 5 battering rams.

 

battering rams take dmg from all archers and some melees and are alive. they crush building by building till they get CC.

my elephants maybe crush one building then die from archers either ungarisoned or garrisoned in fortress (elephants are very vulnerable for arrows) (actually thats why i gave up on crushing fortress with elephants, its never worth it, all your elephant die just from 20 garisoned units, while one battering ram would be enough in this case to take down fortress).

one battering ram can take as much damage as siege tower can or even more? and he has 5 of them, and they crush bases at insane speed.

 

i also had 5 catapults in base just to counter rams but they deal much less damage than rams that i barely killed one ram with 5 catapults (and they were firing constantly).

 

enemy dont even need to invest in infantry, they can use rams to block most of damage and no matter what you do you are in losing position even if you win the battle with him you wont kill 5 rams in time. (even if you win battle (i mean kill most of his human units) he will get your CC , next time he will get CC and barracks, progressing in each attack even if you had advantage in eco and army (and thats because you usually dont have enough firepower to kill even half of his rams, well I have the units but they dont do dmg))

 

maybe im missing something but my barracks have 0 swordsmen and pikes+spearmen+archers do very low damage to rams.

 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by thankforpie

[macemen]

Which civilization are you playing? Seleucids have swordsmen from the Military Colony (Thracian Black Coats). Ptolemies also have swordsmen from their Military Colony (Galatian (?) Swordsman). The Kushites have the Napa (?) Clubman that has hack attack if I remember correctly. You can also use your elephants to destroy rams to great effects.