Let 0 A.D one RTS game that takes those of African descent seriously.

[rolandixor]

I will be brief, since I'm almost sure this has been brought up before at least once in some manner.

Consider adding some actual black people to the game, and not just as mercenaries. If the Nubians existed enough to be hired as mercenaries, then maybe you might think they must have actually had a distinct civilization? And that is just one black, African civilization. I know your game is meant to be about Rome (as usual) and their contemporaries (as usual). In other words, very Euro-centric.

However, I can assure you there is a much wider community that would be happy to not only play, but contribute, to a game where we are actually represented and taken seriously, and not as though we either did not exist, or simply were not "advanced" enough to be of any significance.

I challenge anyone, before you reply and say "Africans were living in huts back then", use Google. We were not. Slavery is recent, and descendents of slaves (like myself) are largely responsible for building the civilizations you are now so proud of. So, give us equal respect.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Is dificult convince to the team to add new civilization I like the idea to add new civilization like Scythian, Numidian ( they are

African too), Pontic Kingdom, Thracian, Han, Mayans(Preclassic period).

By the way you need first have a very complete document desing with valid sources that even have heroes and Wonders. And need be strictly in 500 BC to 500 A.D

All civilization in game have one document design.

http://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Civ%3A_Ptolemies

And you need search architecture style if the civilization faction have own.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Lion.Kanzen

[iNcog]

woah there

africans themselves were the ones who captured the slaves which were then sold to the europeans

let's not get ahead of ourselves here mate. this is a game, there's no reason whatsoever to get so antsy like that with your first post. "give us equal respect" ? u mad or

nuts

i want to troll in this thread so hard but out of respect for wildfire i will shut my my mouth. but wow, no reason to be so crazy aggressive from the get-go mate. you look like you're triggered, son

Edit: nice grammar and spelling though. i can respect that

Edited February 6, 2015 by iNcog

[rolandixor]

woah there

africans themselves were the ones who captured the slaves which were then sold to the europeans

Edit: nice grammar and spelling though. i can respect that

Actually the first slaves were forcibly kidnapped, not sold. Selling of captured slaves occurred only after the Europeans realized that it was probably safer (let's be honest) to form (deceptive) alliances with the native kingdoms (and yes, they were actually kingdoms). I'm upset, by the way, because of the thread here talking about making black African "minor civilizations". I read it. I picked up the typical attitude. I also had a conversation with a former dev of the game (off-forum - so identity withheld), who gave me the excuse that "it's hard to find history about Africans". It's not hard - no one bothers to look - because they go based on the assumption that we are inherently primitive.

This is the exact reason why we are never given placement in any historical RTS.

And yes, it is a game. Only a game, it's always said. But, it goes much deeper than a game. It runs into attitudes that most of us are unwilling to face - and you aptly demonstrated.

"Edit": You should also try it.

[rolandixor]

Is dificult convince to the team to add new civilization I like the idea to add new civilization like Scythian, Numidian ( they are

African too), Pontic Kingdom, Thracian, Han, Mayans(Preclassic period).

By the way you need first have a very complete document desing with valid sources that even have heroes and Wonders. And need be strictly in 500 BC to 500 A.D

All civilization in game have one document design.

http://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Civ%3A_Ptolemies

And you need search architecture style if the civilization faction have own.

Thank you for a respectful and reasonable reply. I understand the requirements, and thanks for poiting in the right direction. It should be possible to find some African kingdoms that existed in that period. As for heroes and wonders, that may be a little more difficult, but only because of the lack of archeological documentation of what is actually found in Africa regarding ancient kingdoms.

BTW - the Scythians weren't black. Not that this is an issue, per se, but just that I have found whenever people bring up African civilizations, North African (non-black) civilizations are pointed to as examples. Egypt is often thrown in too, but only the period where the black dynasties were no longer in existence.

Now, I want to make it clear - I'm not pushing on race only. I'm just tackling a general problem that I've noticed, and to be fair, it is that once you're black, you're invisible in history. This is not to say I'm against any other ethnic group (certainly not!).

[iNcog]

this is the internetz son, i'll bother with da grammar if i have something meaningful to post

you said that research can be done on african civilizations. it genuinely sounds interesting, so why not post it here for us to read? sharing is caring after all. i think that then people would be more inclined to include an african civilization, which might indeed be interesting. either way, the time of the dev team is limited, they're all doing this on their free time, bless them.

ofc, i'm one the the rare people on the forums that cares a bit less about history and a bit more about game design; that's a personal view though.

what i find more interesting is that you seem to want to push the fact that not including lesser known civilizations is somehow racist

[rolandixor]

this is the internetz son, i'll bother with da grammar if i have something meaningful to post

you said that research can be done on african civilizations. it genuinely sounds interesting, so why not post it here for us to read? sharing is caring after all. i think that then people would be more inclined to include an african civilization, which might indeed be interesting. either way, the time of the dev team is limited, they're all doing this on their free time, bless them.

ofc, i'm one the the rare people on the forums that cares a bit less about history and a bit more about game design; that's a personal view though.

what i find more interesting is that you seem to want to push the fact that not including lesser known civilizations is somehow racist

I thought you said you didn't want to troll.

I will definitely post some information later, but it is because of attitudes like yours, that people like me don't bother to contribute where they can. I have free time to contribute, but not if I'm seen as insignficant.

Finally to your last sentence, I didn't say excluding "minor" civilizations was racist. I didn't indicate that either. You need to learn to comprehend, bro.

[Lion.Kanzen]

The Scythians are an example sbout other civs in the list as possibly the 13th faction.

Remember we lack of volunteers in some departaments, our art team is short even we aren't finish Seleucids yet. Is hard think in a new faction for the next two years. Create a new civilization takes 1-2 years.

[Stan`]

Okay show me materials and Îll dtart including it as a standalone faction such as Rote. Given the time I have though.

[niektb]

Why bother with new civilizations if the current ones aren't even finished?

No kidding, there are enough possibilities to make a mod featuring a civilization. That happens too with the Chinese...

[Lion.Kanzen]

In think be can put a several factions in a alternate mod. And start by own minifaction , alternate faction and subfaction system.

[rolandixor]

Why bother with new civilizations if the current ones aren't even finished?

No kidding, there are enough possibilities to make a mod featuring a civilization. That happens too with the Chinese...

You didn't bother with reading, did you?

[rolandixor]

The Scythians are an example sbout other civs in the list as possibly the 13th faction.

Remember we lack of volunteers in some departaments, our art team is short even we aren't finish Seleucids yet. Is hard think in a new faction for the next two years. Create a new civilization takes 1-2 years.

If I was assured that "my people" (hate to even have to use this term - we are all human...) were taken seriously, then I'd be glad to contribute in terms of artwork. I'm sure there are others who would as well. I haven't talked to others about how they feel but I have seen it mentioned before across the web, that black people feel left out. People who feel left out aren't very likely to want to contribute.

When they get reactions like "blacks sold each other into slavery"... um... why should we contribute again?

Anyway, that's just my position. Thank you again for being reasonable.

[Stan`]

Well mods are taken seriously, we have some features in the game that were made for us. And civs that get a certain level of quality may get in the game.

[feneur]

Please calm down one notch both Roland and iNcog. It's a lot more likely that your opinion will be considered if your opinion is what is being presented and not arguments about other things/why your opponent is wrong.

Also, I did not say that a lack of information was the only reason. The (to my knowledge) limited knowledge makes it harder though. Personally I think we have too many civilizations already, but thankfully this isn't my game, but a collaborate effort, so my opinion is only a limited part of the whole (and I have to bow to the majority/those who actually work on implementing things).

What's actually more important is the time needed to create it.

I believe I told you this before, but that's pretty irrelevant, the main thing is that I'm now: It's a lot more likely that a well-developed mod will be included in the game than that arguments and accusations are going to encourage anyone to work on something.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Please calm down one notch both Roland and iNcog. It's a lot more likely that your opinion will be considered if your opinion is what is being presented and not arguments about other things/why your opponent is wrong.

Also, I did not say that a lack of information was the only reason. The (to my knowledge) limited knowledge makes it harder though. Personally I think we have too many civilizations already, but thankfully this isn't my game, but a collaborate effort, so my opinion is only a limited part of the whole (and I have to bow to the majority/those who actually work on implementing things).

What's actually more important is the time needed to create it.

I believe I told you this before, but that's pretty irrelevant, the main thing is that I'm now: It's a lot more likely that a well-developed mod will be included in the game than that arguments and accusations are going to encourage anyone to work on something.

In future we can make consensus about we want for 0 A.D remembering the project every day is more global.

[LordGood]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only imperial civilizations coming out of Africa during our time frame (600BC-1AD) were those of Carthage and Ptolemaic Egypt. Kingdoms like those of Aksum came later. Lack of information on these empires is also a hinderance.

[simongeorges]

@rolandixor, you'll find some developed mods in https://github.com/0ADMods/, especially the one about the Han dynasty. This should help you identify what is needed to have a working mod for the game (if not, there are dedicated topics on the forum regarding mod building where you'll find people able to help you debug what is eventually missing or wrong in your mod, or you may use the IRC channels where there are almost always someone connected).

As said before, the main issue for the core team is the time they have, so if you manage to find people helping you have a well-finished mod (and the design document mentioned by Lion.Kanzen), that should be a pretty good start to have your mod included in the core game (and in the meantime, people will be able to play with it anyway).

[rolandixor]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only imperial civilizations coming out of Africa during our time frame (600BC-1AD) were those of Carthage and Ptolemaic Egypt. Kingdoms like those of Aksum came later. Lack of information on these empires is also a hinderance.

Just as an example of how wrong this is (information is a bit hard to find unfortunately with limited time right now:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mero%C3%AB

There were imperial Kingdoms in Africa for most of Africa's history. They're just not mentioned in contemporary history very often, because it's inconvenient to admit that we're not a primitive sub-species that couldn't get anywhere till we had a helping hand.

[rolandixor]

@rolandixor, you'll find some developed mods in https://github.com/0ADMods/, especially the one about the Han dynasty. This should help you identify what is needed to have a working mod for the game (if not, there are dedicated topics on the forum regarding mod building where you'll find people able to help you debug what is eventually missing or wrong in your mod, or you may use the IRC channels where there are almost always someone connected).

As said before, the main issue for the core team is the time they have, so if you manage to find people helping you have a well-finished mod (and the design document mentioned by Lion.Kanzen), that should be a pretty good start to have your mod included in the core game (and in the meantime, people will be able to play with it anyway).

Fair enough.

All I'm saying (this is my core point), is that in setting out the goals for a game of the sort, it would be more encouraging to both players and contributors of certain demographics if they were not meant to feel like a third or non-thought. I'm trying to find a better, clearer way to put that.

[Stan`]

You still haven't answered me

[niektb]

[...] I'm trying to find a better, clearer way to put that.

No need for that. Your point is clear.

What the question is: Is your point valid? And if yes, what to do about it?

I don't have the feeling that Africans were primitive (unknown? Yes. Primitive? No.). Recent history of slavery has nothing to do with the Ancient Kingdoms. But looking at the current state of the game I think your best bet is to show off by creating a quality mod to get the enthusiasm of others. (you could look at other mods for examples on how to mod the game just like simongeorges pointed out)

Edited February 6, 2015 by niektb

[LordGood]

Your accusatory tone is making it very difficult to take you seriously mate. I'm genuinely interested in ancient Africa, but your attitude is a little off-putting. Keep opinions on the down low, and keep posts factual as not to raise passions and get a troll thread started.

Feneur is right in that we probably wont be adding any more civs into the main game, but a mod does sound like a fun project.

[serveurix]

I may be wrong, but as far as I remember, the developers have reached an agreement on a number of 12 for the factions of 0 A.D., and have made a choice of factions, among the most influencial of their time between Gibraltar and the Himalaya. They already require a lot of work, and I suppose adding any more faction would make the game a nightmare to balance.

I don't find the euro-mediterrannean-centric aspect shocking for a historical antiquity-based RTS game, since a lot of very influencial historical events took place in this part of the world. With the Mauryas, I'd say that 0 A.D. is among the less euro-centric RTS games I've seen.

But featuring subsharian african factions in an RTS would certainly be interesting. Rolandixor, why don't you propose a mod for that ?

Also, as me and -I suppose- most people on this forum are not very savvy on subsaharian african history, I suggest you tell us more about civilisations, politics, warfare, important battles and influencial historical events that took place in this part of the world during the 0 A.D. timeframe. This will maybe encourage people to join you and create.

Edited February 6, 2015 by serveurix

[iNcog]

They're just not mentioned in contemporary history very often, because it's inconvenient to admit that we're not a primitive sub-species that couldn't get anywhere till we had a helping hand.

See, this is kind of why I jumped the gun.

It's the insinuation that most people apparently believe that Africans are a primitive sub-species. Bringing social/racial/historical issues into something which is supposed to revolve around developing a game kind of gets my goat.

We're really all here to have fun discussing the game 0 AD. The game's design, its historical aspect, the coding in the game, all that fun stuff. Whereas I don't necessarily disagree with the notion that it would be interesting to see under-represented civilizations included in the game, I do disagree the angle from which you're approaching the problem.

You come with the idea that Europeans are evil because they disregard African history and because they had slaves hundreds of years ago. That is why I felt like reminding you that Africans themselves participated in the triangular commerce. Slavery itself is a terrible, terrible thing. NO ONE is questioning that. NO ONE here is pro-slavery (even though it still exists today, mind you). Historically speaking, no country or culture is really innocent of slavery, it's important to remember that.

History is history, it should not be forgotten and it should be respected. However the actions we take today shouldn't reflect what happened in history. "He hit me, so I hit back". That sort of thing is silly. I'm French yet I have very good relations with German people. Yet France and Germany have historically been at each other's throats for centuries.

Hence my reaction; it might seem distasteful to you or others, but I don't believe I'm completely in the wrong. Nor am I trolling, I am serious when I post my views.

This post turned out longer than I had originally anticipated, sorry about that. tl;dr a new civ might be nice and all but I think the civs we already have need some working on either way.