Suggestions for 0 A.D.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Aigis, m8. Any chance you could shrink that sig image 50% or so? Thnx m8.

[Aigis]

ya sure. ill have it done today when i get home from school.

[Brian]

Yeah, just popping in to say hello. I haven't been very active for quite a while and I have searched the forum but haven't seen this mentioned yet.

What types of compression will be implemented in the game? For example, map compression, network compression, etc. This is an important topic since massive amounts of data need to be transfered for online games. The complexity of a game like 0AD requires large amounts of bandwidth to transmit all the data. This data includes unit types, unit locations, player resources, map events, and it must all be done in synchronization.

To minimize out of sync errors and allow more players to play on a single map a good compression scheme has to be utilized to make it happen. I think that 7zip could be used for this problem. It is free and open source and Ykkrosh has mentioned how he likes it on many occasions. I also like it and think that adding a 7zip .dll to be utilized by 0AD could be the solution for this problem. The game engine could use 7zip dll to send compressed data streams regarding current in-game information as mentioned above.

Also, most importantly, I feel that maps should be compressed when sent from user to user. This would allow the easy and painless transfer of custom made maps. The game engine would use 7zip to heavily compress the maps before sending them to the client requesting the map. Upon receiving the map, the client would decompress the map on its end and then allow the user to start the game.

I can't tell you how many games I have played where maps have been transfered inefficiently by not utilizing compression methods. The time it took to download some of these maps was horrendous at best and at many times I would simply choose not to join a game that was playing on a map that I didn't already have.

I know that this may not be a issue that is on the top of your minds right now, but it is an important issue that needs to be addressed and looked at. From what I have heard basic network testing is currently being done with the game and I feel that this needs to be looked at before designing the network portion of the game engine. If not done early a complete re-write of the network portion of the game engine may need to be done based on its original design. Going at it from the beginning is the best way to solve the problem of integrating good compression schemes with the network portion of the game engine.

I thought that this was an important issue to bring up.

-Brian ;-)

[feneur]

Thanks for suggesting that we take a look at compression, I think some thought has already went into this, but I'm sure the programming department likes suggestions like this. I'll leave it to them to answer what we've already planned etc though as I don't have much knowledge about these things =)

[Impeached]

Yes, we at IGZ would love to host your game, and it would be beneficial to Wildfire Games as well, as 0 AD has no multiplayer yet. Microsoft Ants was a free RTS on the MSN Zone with thousands of players. A free RTS on IGZ could get thousands of players as well, I imagine.

If you want to discuss details, PM me.

Yes/no/maybe?

[feneur]

Yes/no/maybe?

As we are not near the release date yet I'd say maybe if I have to say anything (but I'd rather not say anything at all yet ). Not that we are against it in principle, but rather that we'd like to be closer to the release before making any decisions of this kind.

[Tycan]

As we are not near the release date yet I'd say maybe if I have to say anything (but I'd rather not say anything at all yet ). Not that we are against it in principle, but rather that we'd like to be closer to the release before making any decisions of this kind.

true that. patience is a virtue

[feneur]

Yes, unfortunately it is

It would sure be easier if things wouldn't take a long time to get done and be good, but Im afraid we'll have to accept that they do, we're doing what we can to get things done though, so hopefully it won't take "forever". (It feels like that at times though, it's not exactly funny when you don't have all the time you'd like to put into a project like this, knowing that people are eagerly waiting and not being able to find more time to get things done. It's a great motivation to have an interested community though, so it's not like we're disappointed that you're interested )

[Aeros]

Just to put a neat twist on that, its completely possible for you to be looking at and playing 0 A.D. as soon as a week from now... on the grounds of joining the team to help work on it.

[Tycan]

Just to put a neat twist on that, its completely possible for you to be looking at and playing 0 A.D. as soon as a week from now... on the grounds of joining the team to help work on it.

rock on 0 a.d.

[WhiteTreePaladin]

I am currently enjoying learning how to model and texture, but I would really like to learn animations as well.... Have you all ever taken people on the team who have... um, potential?

[Impeached]

As we are not near the release date yet I'd say maybe if I have to say anything (but I'd rather not say anything at all yet ). Not that we are against it in principle, but rather that we'd like to be closer to the release before making any decisions of this kind.

Alright.

[MAXDDARK]

I've seen a screenshots months ago that you showed a "transportation bout" with several warriors in.

I would like to suggest you to stick to more realistic graphics.

I mean the bouts should be much bigger, and the heads of the warriors smaller.

[Kimball]

At this point, we're a little bit too far along to go back and fix everything. Remember, it's a video game. Play it because its fun. If a boat took up the entire screen, it might not be worth having because it could get in the way of playing the game or in some cases be unable to move. If you were to have a dock in a small lake and build a massive boat in the way, you could be obstructing fishing routes and have no way of disposing or moving this monstrous creation.

You might also notice that the buildings aren't perfectly to scale with our units. For the same reason, our buildings are a little bit smaller so that you can build an adequate city in a small area.

As for the unit's heads, I appreciate your input but they are correctly scaled in my mind. Look at this unit showcase image of the Persian Immortal. The heads are in proportion, and you can compare it to just about any image of a human being.

Except for those with freakishly large or small heads.

[espiesior]

Quick question, how applicable is misfiring of long range units? Friendly fire?

[GRoss]

Guys, I'm a bit off topic here, but I would like to suggest that there should be like endless ore deposits and hmm, reproductive trees in the game - thus endless resources. Because when you play a game like WarCraft or AoE it seems like you're racing against time - you have to lose or win before the map runs out of resources, which means that you can't play on a simple map for more than 1h. while gathering a lot of resources.

If there are at least some endless ore deposits and trees - it would than mean, if you lost a battle, than you can go back and build another army and try to use a diffrent strategy to defeat you foe. But I remember playing WarCraft3 with my mate and when i lost a battle and all of my troops on a small map - it meant that all I could do was to WAIT, because I didn't have any more resources to build and army.

!!!ENDLESS RESOURCES!!!

[Kimball]

Regenerating trees has to be the greatest idea that has ever been thought up for an RTS, but sadly, it's hardly ever done. I know what justifies it, but suppose you were to limit the number of surrounding trees so that they don't grow so fast that they fill the map by the end of the game. Like minesweeper, only with a forest.

Unlimited mines might not be a good idea, but I agree that a resource like stone should be abundant.

[GRoss]

Mabye not trees, but what about mines?

Think about it plz, like say there would a 3 diffrent types of mines: small, med., large - and each of the had unlimited resources, but say only 2 people can gather ore in a small mine, 4 in medium and 6 in large. It would provide endless resources but will still make large mines a desirable location to be controlled by your forces - more income per minute. Large mines would be locations to be fought over and would provide the controlling side with more resource. Because I remember WarCraft straight away - those fields full of tree trunks, makes you feel sad... I dunno guys, just think about it. - some examples with endless resources: Cossaks, Empire Earth 2, Caesar, Stronghold.

Or maybe you would like to consider adding building that generate endless income like hmm.....market, special sort of plantation, fishing etc.

By the way a good game too look at for regenerating trees "Knights and Merchants" the game isn't too good, but the aspect of regenerating trees is interesting.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Sorry. Our mines will be exactly like AOK/AOM.

[Kimball]

I do think we should consider a tree system of some kind. That always bugged me. And remember how awesome that Gaia godpower looked when the trees grew out of the ground?

[Mythos_Ruler]

Hmmm, think about real life history... How many times did the Romans, Greeks, and Persians replant whole forests? If anything they continued to clear forests until their respective downfalls. The Carthaginians and Romans after them totally destroyed the ecosystem of the North African coastal plain. Attica in Greece used to be covered in pine trees, until they were all cut down for triremes. It got so bad that the Greeks had to import all their wood from Thrace.

I couldn't see forests growing back automatically. Clear cutting should make them go away for good. However, I could see two possibilities:

1.) Forests that are left alone long enough generally start to grow. Trees on the outer rim are young and small and grow larger, small trees start to grow on the edges of those, repeat. The forests can start to encroach upon cleared land and open pastures if left to their own devices. But forests that are clear cut should remain dead forever, until the end of the game.

2.) Players can plant groves of trees or fruit orchards. These orchards can provide a source of both food and wood, making wood a renewable resource.

I want to pass along a disclaimer that says neither option above has been implemented into 0 A.D. - they are just ideas that cropped into my head. We'll have "orchards" in the game, but not like what I just described.

Discuss!

[Kimball]

Both ideas are fantastic.

And that's what I meant. I don't mean that by constantly hacking away at a forest, it should grow back at a rate that is fast enough to be efficient. If you leave a dead forest alone for quite some time (let's say 25-30 minutes game time?), you should start to see small plants grow in it's place.

I think allowing the female villagers to plant domesticated plants would be a great idea. Maybe these trees aren't as plentiful as a fruit tree you'd find in the wild, or maybe you have to wait a while before they become useful.

[GRoss]

Players can plant groves of trees or fruit orchards. These orchards can provide a source of both food and wood, making wood a renewable resource. - I like that. Seems cool because even though players destroy natural forests, they still can plant new ones that would cost a fraction of a real tree value + orchards seem cool as well. But I dont see how, if you have renevable trees and food + endless stone - what about ore?!

Any suggestions?

[Kimball]

We don't have endless stone. The idea that orchards provide both wood and food might be a bit complicated. Not that it can't be done, but it's somewhat a lot to think about. Also, how would we price them? Free seeds?

[GRoss]

Oh, I thought that there's going to be endless stone - I think one of your teammembers mentioned that before, but I'm not sure, anyway. I think a simple mechanism could be used for planting trees and orchards or fields. Say 1 tree gives 100 lumber resource, but to plant a tree you only need like 10-50 lumber. Same goes for orchards or fields, but using food or a combination of food and wood.