Design Iberian circuit wall

[Mythos_Ruler]

Now, what's really not possible, that's building walls against shorelines. I think this should also be possible. Not sure though. I think as far as you can reach to build a wall, you should be able to build one.

Agreed.

But now we're getting away from the topic of the thread.

[sanderd17]

Agreed.

But now we're getting away from the topic of the thread.

Oops, yeah.

A quick summary about what this thread is really about:

Currently, the Iberian starting walls are found too strong. There's no possibility to raid them.

Disabling arrows from the towers + removing the gates would make them just as every other civ, so not really what we want.

Disabling arrows from the towers without removing the gates seems a nice compromise. The arrows could be added in town phase again as a tech. Other civs could also upgrade their wall towers via a tech (e.g. to fire scorpion bolts).

[Pedro Falcão]

Disabling arrows from the towers without removing the gates seems a nice compromise. The arrows could be added in town phase again as a tech. Other civs could also upgrade their wall towers via a tech (e.g. to fire scorpion bolts).

This seems reasonable to me. But about the scorpion bolts, it must be an ultimate tech, imagine how easy it would be to fend the attackers with giant arrows? One single bolt of those things was able to take down 3 men or a horse and its rider.

Look here an example of the power of a scorpion (a Chinese one, but stilll...) around 1:14:57

http://youtu.be/zFAxMK3JmdE

[sanderd17]

This seems reasonable to me. But about the scorpion bolts, it must be an ultimate tech, imagine how easy it would be to fend the attackers with giant arrows? One single bolt of those things was able to take down 3 men or a horse and its rider.

The time between firing should also be adapted. Making firing slower so that you gain only a tiny bit against an infantry legion, but it's easier to demolish sieges coming (due to the bigger crush).

But an ultimate tech indeed, it should probably be as expensive as a few catapults on their own.

[alpha123]

Disabling arrows from the towers + removing the gates would make them just as every other civ, so not really what we want.

On the contrary, it would still be much easier to defend the Iberian starting position. The wall towers would still shoot if garrisoned. But most importantly, the enemy would only be able to raid from two or three locations -- much easier to defend than the entire area surrounding one's civ center.

Disabling arrows from the towers without removing the gates seems a nice compromise.

Then the Iberians would still be unraidable, and that doesn't solve anything.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Then the Iberians would still be unraidable, and that doesn't solve anything.

Is 1 unraidable civ a problem to be solved? Perhaps we should have asked this question first.

[Yves]

Then the Iberians would still be unraidable, and that doesn't solve anything.

I'm repeating myself but:

Usually raiding doesn't lead to victory immediately. It just slows down the economy so much that the other player will never be able to catch up again. Even if you are really lucky as an Iberian player and you have a lot of resources inside your wall, it won't last for very long.

[FeXoR]

Is 1 unraidable civ a problem to be solved? Perhaps we should have asked this question first.

I don't think that's really a problem.

I'm repeating myself but:

Usually raiding doesn't lead to victory immediately. It just slows down the economy so much that the other player will never be able to catch up again. Even if you are really lucky as an Iberian player and you have a lot of resources inside your wall, it won't last for very long.

Indeed. I would be OK to stick with it as is or an upgrade for Wall Towers in Town Phase (It could just add the default one arrow or before the upgrade the towers have no attack at all even with soldiers garrisoned in it).

Edited January 25, 2013 by FeXoR

[idanwin]

Is 1 unraidable civ a problem to be solved? Perhaps we should have asked this question first.

It certainly isn't, this will force raiding style people to alter their strategies in some cases. Should be a good thing.

[alpha123]

Is 1 unraidable civ a problem to be solved? Perhaps we should have asked this question first.

Not necessarily. However, one civ that's overpowered because they're unraidable is.

[Pureon]

Iberians certainly aren't overpowered due to starting walls. Research City Phase and build a couple of rams and those walls will turn into dust.

Is 1 unraidable civ a problem to be solved?

Good question, and no I don't think it is a problem.

[TheMista]

Iberians certainly aren't overpowered due to starting walls. Research City Phase and build a couple of rams and those walls will turn into dust.

Good question, and no I don't think it is a problem.

Yes it is a problem , If the iberian player choses to raid while he cant be raided he has huge advantage , putting pressure while he is safefly booming in his base.

Balancing a game means that everyone is in equal ground.

Iberians start with a 1500 stone/resources investment while others with nothing.

If you think they are vanurable give them a free tower next to their tc.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Here's what I propose. The current circuit of walls that we give them either:

a.) only occurs with the "default" game mode but not during "classic" (hard core? competition?) game mode, or...

b.) only occurs with the "Special Starting Structures" game setup option. e.g. Iberians get circuit walls, Carthaginians get the Tophet, Hellenic factions get the Stoas, Celtic factions get the Tavern, etc.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Why dont use a "Civilian" Walls, without Turrent, the gate can be destroy if a large number of units can attack, i think (a excuse is) because are Wooden doors, and same than Palisade can be attacked, the Iberic can be Upgrade this Primitive walls for the new(the actual they use). use al old model(linked in Spolier) for the initial wall, gates and turrets. more weak more easily to Raid but you can defended good with strategic, Even a beginner can take it.

[quantumstate]

I think having an unraidable civ is a bit extreme. There are meant to be differences between civs but removing an entire play style the size of raiding seems crazy. Making raiding harder does seem ok to me though.

I like the idea of removing the gates. This does come with one issue though where players can use the wall towers to transport through the wall (they would block the gaps with buildings. I would like to make walls one sided where the wall will be orientated so that it can only be entered from the side nearest the closest Civil Centre (and made so that it doesn't switch orientation halfway along). Perhaps this is overcomplicating things.

Another thing is that even with full walls they are not completely unraidable since wood must be gathered from outside and is vulnerable.

[Oimat]

And why not, as one game i had (i think it was during a scenario), instead of walls, something like this ?

[Sighvatr]

I like a strong defense in the beginning of the game. That just helps rid people's ability to kill off a player by sending 10 civilian soldiers the first five minutes of the game. I think a strong defense is necessary in the beginning of the game, and a powerful siege engine for each civilization in the later. I can not enjoy games when a player is able to rush you. For example, the Russians in AoE3 were able to produce military units in the start, and rush a player before he could establish any units of his own.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I like a strong defense in the beginning of the game. That just helps rid people's ability to kill off a player by sending 10 civilian soldiers the first five minutes of the game. I think a strong defense is necessary in the beginning of the game, and a powerful siege engine for each civilization in the later. I can not enjoy games when a player is able to rush you. For example, the Russians in AoE3 were able to produce military units in the start, and rush a player before he could establish any units of his own.

i agree with this, but some player like 5 minutos of Gmeplay, that is no my preferencee, i like long gameplaythink and think how taake down enemy forces.

i think simple stone walls without turrent and palisade gates easy to take down if you don't protecting with strategy and ingenious .

that why one time i was to propose use traps for enemy.

[idanwin]

I'm quite sure that some "no attack" policies are going to be implemented (10 min, 15 min, 20 min, 30 min?) So people can build their base(s) first.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I'm quite sure that some "no attack" policies are going to be implemented (10 min, 15 min, 20 min, 30 min?) So people can build their base(s) first.

that option i was watched in EE2, i very like, you know how many time you have after a AI Rush.

[Sighvatr]

I'm quite sure that some "no attack" policies are going to be implemented (10 min, 15 min, 20 min, 30 min?) So people can build their base(s) first.

That is a nice feature to have, as I always played 30 minutes no rush in AoE3. Though I prefer if there was a way to easily counter rushing players in the first ten minutes of the game. I like to be crushed by an invading army, not by a handful of tribesmen.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Sighvatr

[Mythos_Ruler]

An additive solution (in addition to something else, like the revamped Night's Watch tech that unlocks arrow shooting from wall turrets), is that the Iberians can start with, say -300 stone from normal. This takes into account somewhat the "free" nature of their circuit wall. So, in low resource games they start with 0 stone and then in higher resource games they start with 300 less stone than everyone else. Maybe 1000 less in Death Match.

[Lion.Kanzen]

That is a nice feature to have, as I always played 30 minutes no rush in AoE3. Though I prefer if there was a way to easily counter rushing players in the first ten minutes of the game. I like to be crushed by an invading army, not by a handful of tribesmen.

that is so true, when that Minutes finish Prepare to die, not recomeded for noobs.

[av93]

Another solution. Instead of starting with prefabricated walls, make iberians start in a good hill, now that we would have elevation bonus. This could be combined with some bonus:

-Extra stone to iberians

-Iberians build walls faster

-Iberians can make wall in first phase

I think that right now the iberians are OP with the present bonus

[WhiteTreePaladin]

I kind of agree, but we really won't know for sure until we've done a lot more play testing.