Wonders, Special Buildings, and Special Projects

[Enrique]

Babylon gardens update. I'll start the process of AO baking and exporting.

I think I'll have some problems with the flora AO due to the intersecting geometry. I think I'll bake the structure AO first and then with the flora and mix both with half opacity.

[historic_bruno]

Babylon gardens update. I'll start the process of AO baking and exporting.

I think I'll have some problems with the flora AO due to the intersecting geometry. I think I'll bake the structure AO first and then with the flora and mix both with half opacity.

That looks so beautiful, can't wait to have it in a scenario. The only problem is players might be distracted by how awesome it looks

[feneur]

That looks so beautiful, can't wait to have it in a scenario. The only problem is players might be distracted by how awesome it looks

Maybe that could be the special power To distract your opponents

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Agreed. The potential is incredible. You build the Hanging Gardens and then lay out an ambush so that when your opponent dispatches the mainstay of his force to see the awesome wonder, you swoop in with your army into your opponent's area, which is left entirely defenseless!

[Ludo38]

Babylon gardens update.

Enrique, congratulations for the gardens, they look fabulous. I am now learning Blender and take such models as your as examples of what I aim for! I am glad you are bringing us THE gardens !

I have some improvements to suggest :

-the flowers are really oversized, which contributes too make the building look smaller than it is. I'm pretty sure having much smaller flowers and more numerous in their tree would change the scale of the whole thing.

-the red paintings/human figures on the top part : I have the feeling that a more "babylonian" color (such as blue or white) would increase the global harmony of the building, unless red is known to be a color used in that kind of detail.

-the water : I don't know how water integration works in an 0AD building, but I think the water here is much too blue. It will look much more realistic and integrated if it gets closer to a soft blue layer on a ground-color surface. However, apparently-blue water could look realistic in those gardens if we imagine canals and fountains, etc with a bottom made of blue tiles, faking the color of the water (like in a swimming pool).

-I guess adding blue-tiles textures+gold parts (such as those of Ishtar gate) to parts of the gardens would make it even more demonstrative (as it must have been) and "wealthy".

Maybe it has been discussed here before, but recently, I have learned that the hanging gardens probably haven't been in Babylon but in NINIVE, another big city of Assyria. There appear to be not trace at all of hanging gardens in Babylon (even in the texts), contrary to Ninive that was said to own a sort of special garden like that. Very interesting topic!

[Enrique]

I have some improvements to suggest :

Thanks for your feedback Ludo! I'll explain:

-The flowers are a little oversized to give them more visibility even from a distance, I know they are not 100% accurate in scale, but I think it looks prettier even sacrificing some realism.

-The red color that you see is where the playercolor is going to be shown. If the player has blue color, those details would be blue instead.

-The water is just a placeholder. Myconid has plans to implement pretty water with reflections on buildings in the future, and I'll replace that ugly blue water once it's implemented (until then it'll be blue water texture with partial transparency).

-I also thought to have like mini-isthar gate at the entrance of the garden but it didn't fit well with the design I had in mind. Besides the "isthar gate" texture that we currently have is player-color based, so just first player would get blue. Also, since there's no historical illustration of the gardens I had some artistic freedom

[Pureon]

Looks fantastic Enrique! I'd really like to walk around a life size version of it

[historic_bruno]

It would be really cool if some particles were used, like leaves falling, maybe some birds / butterflies fluttering around. Personally I love mechanical things, so seeing the "screws" or pumps that raised water from the Euphrates would be epic, if you could somehow work that in, or at least seeing animated water throughout the model (perhaps small waterfalls and aqueducts). As good as it looks as a static model, I can only imagine seeing it come to life!

[Enrique]

It would be really cool if some particles were used, like leaves falling, maybe some birds / butterflies fluttering around. Personally I love mechanical things, so seeing the "screws" or pumps that raised water from the Euphrates would be epic, if you could somehow work that in, or at least seeing animated water throughout the model (perhaps small waterfalls and aqueducts). As good as it looks as a static model, I can only imagine seeing it come to life!

Nice suggestions Bruno

Leaves falling is a nice idea and will be added definitely.

I read about the screws and some hypothesis about how they transported the water. But my impression is that if it was done with screws, these won't be visible from outside. However, I thought on the possibility to add an animated chain pump (more realistic/historical accurate ¿?), something like this or this on the side of the building but I finally discarded it thinking that it would be too much resource-consuming (it's already very heavy polied). But hey, you are the devs you say what is too much and what is reasonable ^^

I'd love to add some little particle waterfalls falling to the surrounding water but I haven't found anything like that in atlas

[Ludo38]

I'd love to add some little particle waterfalls falling to the surrounding water but I haven't found anything like that in atlas

Little waterfalls falling in the surrounding water would surely look good! Actually, I think that is would really look hyper-demonstrative, "à-la Dubaï", as we can consider water (and water raised at the top of a building) a rare ressource in a country like Assyria! It really would be the show-off of Babylon : "Look all the water we've got, look how we make it climb the levels and fall back down !" which fits well to the famous pride of Babylon.

In a more realistic way, I imagine small lines of water wandering through the levels, for examples all along the walls, even at the threshold of gates (you would have to step over the water to pass the gate). This water would hydrate each level, work on a horizontal way, which is more technically sensed than a water show of up and down.

I see the gardens having both kinds of water ways : vertical, and horizontal.

[myconid]

I'd love to add some little particle waterfalls falling to the surrounding water but I haven't found anything like that in atlas

Waterfalls: a few layers of animated textures on a static plane combined with "smoke" particle effects at points of impact will probably do the trick.

[Mythos_Ruler]

It's the "animated textures on a static plane" thing we don't have yet.

[myconid]

It's the "animated textures on a static plane" thing we don't have yet.

Has that ever stopped us before?

[Iskandar]

Hi! I propose this wonder for the game!

Persians: Hanging Gardens of Babylon or Mausoleum at Halicarnassus

Athenians: Parthenon

Britons and Celts: Stonehenge

Carthaginians: The Mausoleum of Prince Ateban

Gauls: Carnac stones

Iberians: Dolmen of Menga

Macedonians: Library of Alexandria or Lighthouse of Alexandria

Mauryan: Great Stupa at Sanchi

Romans:Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus

Spartan:Acropolis of Sparta

Hellenes: Statue of Zeus at Olympia or Colossus of Rhodes

[Ludo38]

Britons and Celts: Stonehenge

I have a problem with putting Stonehenge as a constructible wonder in the game.

This is not going to be realistic. If Stonehenge (or any other stone circle) would have to appear in the game, I'd prefer them to be part of the map instead of being wonders that you'd build. Stonehenge (between -2800 and -1100) is much older than the time period of 0AD (-500 to +500). I would personally love 0A.D. to propose a much more original wonder for this civilization, something less cliché and more accurate. I actually have no idea of what could it be, but I think we can find something. I imagine that it could be a wooden building, a very good looking one...

But I am wondering if Celts where the kind of culture demonstrating its beauty with a building...

From what I know of them, they expressed through the art of horse-riding and warfare craftmanship, and they loved trees. Maybe a huge Oak would be their kind of "wonder" ?...

To be discussed...

[Mythos_Ruler]

Yeah, but you wouldn't "build" an oak tree either.

[Iskandar]

Ludo38, I know that to put Stonehenge as to constructible wonder for the Britons is not historically correct, the same for the Carnac stones for the Gauls or the Dolmen of menga for the Iberians. The problem is that these people have never built "wonder." After all, to historically be precise, then the Persians cannot build the hanging gardens, because built by the Babylonians. We must look for a solution. Also the Carthaginian ones have need of proper wonder, I have inserted the Mausoleum of Prince Ateban only because I have seen that it has already been drawn in the game by someone, but as wonder it doesn't convince me. Sorry for my language, but I'm newbie and i'm italian, i'm not speak english very well.

[oshron]

I have a problem with putting Stonehenge as a constructible wonder in the game.

This is not going to be realistic. If Stonehenge (or any other stone circle) would have to appear in the game, I'd prefer them to be part of the map instead of being wonders that you'd build. Stonehenge (between -2800 and -1100) is much older than the time period of 0AD (-500 to +500). I would personally love 0A.D. to propose a much more original wonder for this civilization, something less cliché and more accurate. I actually have no idea of what could it be, but I think we can find something. I imagine that it could be a wooden building, a very good looking one...

But I am wondering if Celts where the kind of culture demonstrating its beauty with a building...

From what I know of them, they expressed through the art of horse-riding and warfare craftmanship, and they loved trees. Maybe a huge Oak would be their kind of "wonder" ?...

while you raise a very good point, i think Stonehenge should be the default Brythonic Wonder because it's simply so iconic of Ancient Britain. though my Hanging Gardens idea has more or less already been accepted and that one has even less real justification than Stonehenge because the Persians didn't even build it. i also wouldn't recommend an oak tree 1) because that would fit better for a Germanic civilization in Part 2 (eg, as Thor's Oak) and 2) like Mythos_Ruler said, you don't build a tree

Ludo38, I know that to put Stonehenge as to constructible wonder for the Britons is not historically correct, the same for the Carnac stones for the Gauls or the Dolmen of menga for the Iberians. The problem is that these people have never built "wonder." After all, to historically be precise, then the Persians cannot build the hanging gardens, because built by the Babylonians. We must look for a solution. Also the Carthaginian ones have need of proper wonder, I have inserted the Mausoleum of Prince Ateban only because I have seen that it has already been drawn in the game by someone, but as wonder it doesn't convince me. Sorry for my language, but I'm newbie and i'm italian, i'm not speak english very well.

don't worry, your English is quite good it's been my observation that alot of second-language English-speakers actually speak it (or rather write it) better than most people who speak it as a first language

so it's looking to me like the basic accepted Wonder ideas are:

1. Hanging Gardens (Achaemenid Persians)
   
2. Parthenon (Athenians)
   
3. Stonehenge (Brythonic Celts)
   
4. Carthaginians -- Mausoleum of Ateban?
   
5. Gauls -- no ideas
   
6. Dolmen of Menga (Iberians)
   
7. Library of Alexandria or Lighthouse of Alexandria (Macedonians) -- again, i personally recommend the Library because it doesn't require the existence of water on the map for it to be logically useful
   
8. Mauryan Indians -- Great Stupa at Sanchi?
   
9. Republican Romans -- Colosseum? Roman Senate? Roman Forum?
   
10. Spartans -- Acropolis of Sparta? Colossus of "Rhodes"? Statue of Zeus?
    

[SMST]

This is a list I made up sometime ago. Bear in mind that the factions were not divided at that point and I was still working with sub-factions.

Carthaginians: Cothon of Carthage*

Celts - Britons: Stonehenge**

Celts - Gauls: Carnac Stones**

Hellenes - Poleis: Parthenon

Hellenes - Macedon: Great Lighthouse

Iberians: ??? (was not able to come up with anything, but the Dolmen of Menga might work)

Persians: Cyrus' Tomb (although the Hanging Gardens might work better)

Romans: Circus Maximus***

*I know it is already in the game, but somewhat poorly as the standard warship yard that can be built several times. It should be unique.

**I think we can sacrifice historical accurracy here unless someone has a really original idea here.

***I wonder why that didn't turn up yet. The Colosseum is out of date and will be much better suited for Part II (Imperial Romans). The Temple of Jupiter is somewhat generic, besides, it would be just another temple next to the Parthenon. (which is the obvious choice for the Athenians even more so than for Poleis) The Circus Maximus is something unique Roman and was around at Republican times.

Since the Hellenic factions have been split up, my suggestions for Spartans, Thebans and Macedonians:

Spartans: Statue/Temple of Zeus. Olympia was part of the Peloponnesian League, and I don't think the Acropolis of Sparta would be too astonishing.

Macedonians: Either the Lighthouse or the Library. I agree with Oshron that the first would require a water map, but perhaps the "Wonder" building on water maps could be the Lighthouse, while on other maps the Library would be built instead. This could be extended, e.g. let Spartans build the Colossus of Rhodes on a water map instead of the Statue of Zeus.

Thebans: Just for the heck of it, I'd like some of the seven wonders of the ancient world not included in the former list to be the wonder for the Thebans. This would either be the Temple of Artemis or the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus. I vote for the latter since the Temple of Artemis would be just another temple again. Would be great to have all seven in the game somehow, though. We already have the Great Pyramid, so that is checked.

Oh, and the Great Stupa for the Mauryans is perfect!

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

The Spartans should definitely have a temple of Artemis. It could even be modeled after the Ephesian one. Even if it is not as cool as the Temple of Zeus, it would be historically accurate to some extent. The Thebans could actually just have a wonder that relates to the Oracle of Delphi.

[SMST]

The Spartans should definitely have a temple of Artemis. It could even be modeled after the Ephesian one. Even if it is not as cool as the Temple of Zeus, it would be historically accurate to some extent. The Thebans could actually just have a wonder that relates to the Oracle of Delphi.

Problem with the Temple of Artemis is that it is just a Temple like the Parthenon and kind of repetitive, as I said before.

The Oracle of Delphi is something that I overlooked. I agree that it would suit the Thebans better. Problem: It would either have to be the Temple of Apollo (yet ANOTHER temple) or a reconstruction of the Tholos of Athena (which is iconic for Delphi, but not specifically linked with the Oracle itself, I believe. It would look different, though.)

[Iskandar]

I totally share what oshron has written , and I think that the same can be said for the Carnac stones for the Gauls and the Dolmen of Menga for the Iberians. Some precise statements:

1) Carthaginians: I had thought about the Cothon of Carthage like a wonder, but it is not ok, because is necessary a water map. Provisionally I propose the Mausoleum of Ateban.

2) Romans: Colosseum? Is imperial age! Senate? It was an enough anonymous building. Forum? And' a whole different buildings, not a solo! I had proposed the Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus because as architecture different from the Parthenon or other Greek-Romans temples , and because it was very important in the Republican Rome. Inside of him the sibylline books were deposited and the solemn meetings of the Senate were here.

3) Spartan: Indeed the acropolis of Sparta is as the Roman Forum, too much generic. Some particular building of the acropolis can perhaps be introduced...I invite to read this to try to choose a building (the text is in Italian) http://wikimapia.org/1788077/it/L-Acropoli-di-Sparta... the Persian Stoà or the Choros seem important.

4)Thebans: Temple of Apollo is anonimous, I propose the Cadmea, was the citadel of ancient Thebes

In base to how much written by all in past and recently, i believe that's actual situation on the wonder (with link for more informations):

Persians: Hanging Gardens of Babylon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging_Gardens_of_Babylon

Athenians: Parthenon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenon

Britons and Celts: Stonehenge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge

Carthaginians: The Mausoleum of Prince Ateban (?) http://www.sunnytunisia.com/Tunisia/Attractions/Dougga.html http://experienceintunisia.com/detail.php?7

Gauls: Carnac stones (?) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnac_stones

Iberians: Dolmen of Menga (?) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolmen_of_Menga

Macedonians: Library of Alexandria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria

Mauryan: Great Stupa at Sanchi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanchi

Romans:Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Jupiter_Optimus_Maximus

Spartan:Persian Stoà (?) Choros (?) http://wikimapia.org/1788077/it/L-Acropoli-di-Sparta (text in italian)

Hellenes: Statue of Zeus at Olympia or Colossus of Rhodes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Zeus_at_Olympia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_of_Rhodes

Thebans: Cadmea (?) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmea

[SMST]

The Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus is too non-special, as are some obscure buildings on the Theban or Spartan acropolis. Wonders need to be recognisable. No use in using a structure no one has never heard about. The Statue of Zeus, the Circus Maximus and the Oracle of Delphi are famous and well-known. We don't want to have a player research the origin of that building first. And so, to choose meaningful wonders, we have to sacrifice some historical accuracy.

I still think there could be alternative wonders for water maps for some civs. The most obvious would be the Cothon for Carthage instead of the Mausoleum and the Lighthouse for Macedon instead of the Library. That way, naval maps would give those civs an advantage, which would be historically based. I could also see the Colossus of Rhodes added for one of the Hellenic civs, preferrably Athens. Anyone interested in that idea?

Other than that, I agree with you, Iskandar.

[Mythos_Ruler]

The Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus was actually the most lavishly adorned temple of its time. Sounds pretty special to me. There really is nothing else in Republican Roman times that compares, except the aqueducts, but those would make for strange "Wonders."

[oshron]

The Spartans should definitely have a temple of Artemis. It could even be modeled after the Ephesian one. Even if it is not as cool as the Temple of Zeus, it would be historically accurate to some extent. The Thebans could actually just have a wonder that relates to the Oracle of Delphi.

symbolically, the Temple of Zeus would probably be better 1) becase Zeus was the king of the Greek gods, and 2) the Spartans, being all macho whatever, would probably identify more with male king Zeus rather than female virgin Artemis, who used a coward's ranged weapons in mythology no less. though i also agree that perhaps the Thebans should be included as a civ as well, or alternatively the Syracusans (pretty much just because the strongest suggestion i've seen for a learning campaign has been the foundation of Syracuse), though admittedly i see no problem in limiting the Hellenic civilizations to the Athenians, Spartans, and Macedonians, the most famous of them all. perhaps a hypothetical Part 3 could include the Thebans and Syracusans as amendments to the BC civs

personally, i'm warming up more to the Spartans having the Temple of Zeus at this point, though i also think that all of the wonders we've suggested should be in the game as editor-only buildings. to reiterate what i said before, there should be two versions of all the wonders that can be built by the playable civilizations: a regular-gameplay version that has no effect other than to give a morale boost and initiate the conditions for a wonder victory (a la AOE, AOK, AOM, etc), and a second editor-only version that has an additional effect that comes into use for custom games or campaigns.

here's a rough, fictional example. suppose you are playing as the Spartans against the Persians. the Persians have the ready-made wonder, the Hanging Gardens, which they have right from the beginning. a chief objective of the scenario would be to capture the Hanging Gardens because of a bonus they give towards food production and costs. for the purposes of the game, this would trigger something else that just cripples the Persian economy and makes them easier to defeat from that point, but it also lets you, the player, reap the benefits of the Gardens' food bonuses. does this make sense?

The Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus is too non-special, as are some obscure buildings on the Theban or Spartan acropolis. Wonders need to be recognisable. No use in using a structure no one has never heard about. The Statue of Zeus, the Circus Maximus and the Oracle of Delphi are famous and well-known. We don't want to have a player research the origin of that building first. And so, to choose meaningful wonders, we have to sacrifice some historical accuracy.

I still think there could be alternative wonders for water maps for some civs. The most obvious would be the Cothon for Carthage instead of the Mausoleum and the Lighthouse for Macedon instead of the Library. That way, naval maps would give those civs an advantage, which would be historically based. I could also see the Colossus of Rhodes added for one of the Hellenic civs, preferrably Athens. Anyone interested in that idea?

well wouldn't it honestly be better if it was an obscure wonder? there's plenty of wonders in AOK, for instance, that alot of people who played the game wouldn't recognize immediately. how many people knew about the Porcelain Tower before that game, for instance? and if its an obscure building that looks pretty unique, so much the better. i again recommend the Forum as the Republican Roman wonder because it hasnt been done before and is relatively unique, even though its not a single building. we'd basically just need to figure out what the most iconic building the Forum was and build around that (it could be a big fountain, for instance, with some columns surrounding it). as for the buildings' histories, if history is included in-game (like in AOM), then that would simplify everything

your idea with the "water-only wonders" definitely sounds cool; it would certainly open up alot of possibilities for making the civs more unique. in this situation, though i'd recommend only giving water wonders to civs that specifically have those options (like the Lighthouse and the Colossus) whereas other civs would have the same wonders as before. though, while i admit that water wonders would be cool, it may be too complicated to include something like that so, in the meantime, i think we should focus discussion for land-based wonders (like the Library and the Temple of Zeus)

Edited September 22, 2012 by oshron