Is the AI too difficult now?

[Grautvornix]

"Medium" in 0AD (= "Normal") I believe is intended for players having reached some intermediate playing level. Newbies are really recommended to start with "Very Easy" or "Easy" otherwise it can become a bit frustrating quickly - and that's what the game says. Although the classification is correct, there is a bit of "affecting the player's pride"and not everyone can stand this (I know, grown-ups should be capable of taking a defeat in "Easy", but we should also aim at creating a "fun" experience).

We might rename the levels to be more inviting, as e.g. "Very Easy" might be felt as embarrassing, especially for experienced players of other RTS.

Can I therefore suggest to rename teh levels to something like this (just a proposal) :

• Very Easy --> Beginner,
• Easy --> Intermediate,
• Medium -->  Advanced
• Hard --> Professional
• Very Hard --> Advanced Professional

We might add a note somewhere (in the tutorial or in teh help text or tips&tricks?) that if you are mastering "Very hard" you should be ready to go for multi player with human opponnents and will find adequate challenges there.

I'd be interested to read your opinions!

[Deicide4u]

44 minutes ago, Grautvornix said:

Can I therefore suggest to rename teh levels to something like this (just a proposal) :

• Very Easy --> Beginner,
• Easy --> Intermediate,
• Medium -->  Advanced
• Hard --> Professional
• Very Hard --> Advanced Professional

There isn't anything wrong with the AI difficulty names, and most other RTS games are using this nomenclature.

Professional? So, you can become a professional in 0 A.D.? Professional is a person who has a profession. And Easy is way too easy for an intermediate player.

Edited 7 hours ago by Deicide4u

[Grautvornix]

@Deicide4u your are right, an this was really not an important suggestion. 

The issue seems to be (according to some messages I've seen over the years in this forum) that newbies for this game overestimate their capability (like - exaggerated - "Easy is for kids, I have played many RTS already and will manage a serious challenge") an then don't like the game as the AI is perceived too hard. I agree that one should learn to play first. The game - while it should be challenging - should be fun as well for newcomers.

 

[Thalatta]

3 hours ago, Grautvornix said:

newbies for this game overestimate their capability (like - exaggerated - "Easy is for kids, I have played many RTS already and will manage a serious challenge") an then don't like the game as the AI is perceived too hard. I agree that one should learn to play first. The game - while it should be challenging - should be fun as well for newcomers.

The problem is that Very Easy and Easy should indeed be for kids, elders, and anyone who is in it for history, graphics, whatever, but just doesn't want to get rushed in 10 or 15 mins. Sandbox is not the solution because apparently not much happens, and some time ago someone said “the jump between Sandbox and Very Easy is too big”. So, it does seem that an extra easy level is needed, combined with that Normal shouldn’t be "for players having reached some intermediate playing level", or "about the level a somewhat competent player can beat consistently after 1-3 tries". Competent for 0 A.D. then? And measured by whom? Normal is not this in RTS, there's always certain implied equivalence between games, and this is a known issue, it has been brought up, I remember someone saying that it's the early attacks that get the newbies. And, again, the game states "the default AI level is quite challenging for new players", something I've never seen in any game before, a completely artificial situation, one shifts labels and no such thing happens, no clarification needed, there shouldn't be one in the first place. I don't understand the need to tell people that never had any problem in Normal/Medium in other RTS to stay in Easy or Very Easy until they git gud, and leave without a reasonable challenge those who might be below that level. Normal is so not normal that training times are around 3 times faster when compared to basic units and techs from StarCraft 2 in Brutal, which is ludicrous. I don't think most people wanting to explore the game in general would find that enjoyable. I think I’ve said it already: default options should be friendly for beginners, the vast majority of which will be more (or only) interested in SP.

This paragraph might seem a bit offtopic, but I’ll connect everything with the difficulty levels. As known, this game caters too much to PvP: clickiness, rushes and tryharding have priority over strategy, tactics, and city-building. When someone complains, they have been told they want “a certain game experience that this project doesn't cater to”. There are many problems with that if the idea is to grow the game. Over 90% of gamers care only about SP (AoE numbers, similar for most). On the AoE forum, someone asks “why do developers struggle to design good RTS?”, and someone gives 7 points: half baked single player campaign, missing skirmish mode, missing editor tools, cliche soundtrack, making only multiplayer focused game, blatantly copying other games in genre and cheating AI. For 0 A.D., I think the MP issue is among the most blatant ones (not to mention the lack of a proper campaign, but I think other things should be fixed before that). It cannot be that if some tech is not optimal for MP then there are proposals to remove it. As someone said, they are there for SP, and that’s not a minor thing, at all. Just ignore the icon. Or better, propose how to make it interesting also for MP. Of course, there’ll be people saying “these changes are not part of the proposal and style that 0 A.D. seeks”, which doesn’t tend to be true if one actually reads the 0 A.D. Vision Document.

Coming back to difficulty levels, maybe the AI is hard to code, but, as mentioned, people don’t like cheating AI (or advantages). I wonder if those gathering rate and trade gain modifications can be removed (except maybe on the hardest levels, if needed for a challenge), and the AI to be about when to attack, army sizes, defenses, and how efficiently other things are handled (techs, eco, etc). If Easy is the usual Medium, then that should be Normal, Very Easy should be Easy, and the apparent gap with Sandbox could be filled with a new Very Easy, and maybe another Extremely Easy, since the now nameless hardest level could acquire an Extremely Hard label. Maybe research, training and building rates should be independent speed options, and could be labelled as Normal 4x or 3x present times, some name for a possible 2x, and a Competitive 1x present times, to be used in PvP as it stands now. Regarding the speed of the game in general, I think barely slower would be more attractive to most, for example a Normal game speed of 0.8x the present one, making a Competitive 1.25x the present 1x, and 2.5x would be the present 2x Insane. To simplify things, “Presets” could be used, the "Normal" one selecting all Normal options, and the same with “Competitive”. All this not only makes the game more palatable for new players that will try things with default Normal settings, but also doesn’t change absolutely anything as things stand now if the Competitive Preset is selected.

Besides, I think there's a way to incentivise people to play with Competitive Presets, with the hope that then they’ll have a go at MP (having more players in general should increase the ones going for MP anyway), and that is with Achievements. They are fun and addictive to get, and are good content for SP, giving objectives to be achieved in many possible ways. Maybe accounts or profiles would need to be introduced, so under a given one all played games would count for the Achievements. Each Achievement would be some nice icon, which would get decorated with background wings and lightning bolts (I have an idea to model them on some Roman scutum emblems) if obtained for harder difficulties and speed combinations, respectively, possibly handled with different Presets.

Edited 2 hours ago by Thalatta

[Grautvornix]

Thanks for the comprehensive answer! @Thalatta Indeed, there are many different playing styles - from competitive MP to relaxed SP (my favourire as an elderly guy).

My intention was to start a discussion on naming the various playing levels and referring to them in a way that does not discourage people from trying out the game. Probably too much concerns as everyone should be able to find out that there is an easier setting if a game is too difficult as a beginner when set to "medium", same as there are means to make it more difficult (increased diffulty setting, more adversaries, higher speed, less resources etc.). Just, when initially "opening the box" default setting should be such that people can apprecviate the beauty of the game and its historicaly-appealing gameplay while challenges increase slowly.

[Thalatta]

1 minute ago, Grautvornix said:

when initially "opening the box" default setting should be such that people can apprecviate the beauty of the game and its historicaly-appealing gameplay while challenges increase slowly.

Exactly. I've actually thought about all this the other way around: I wanted to introduce "upgradeable" Achievements (which I enjoyed in games from Kingdom Rush to Sins of a Solar Empire), and at the same time I came across difficulty levels and PvP focus comments, so it all fell into place. I think from combining all these problems and views, a nice solution that makes everyone (or most) happy can be achieved.

[Deicide4u]

@Thalatta, while I somewhat agree with you, the truth is that the AI has some serious flaws, and games against it start to feel samey after a while. 

Case in point is the 1v3 game that @ittihat_ve_terakki has shared. The AI is just plain stupid, doesn't upgrade its units and wastes them frequently on useless attacks. Only after reaching the City phase, the attacks start to become huge.

Any experienced RTS player that sticks with the game for a couple of weeks will be able to crush Medium Petra.

[Thalatta]

29 minutes ago, Deicide4u said:

doesn't upgrade its units and wastes them frequently on useless attacks. Only after reaching the City phase, the attacks start to become huge.

Any experienced RTS player that sticks with the game for a couple of weeks will be able to crush Medium Petra.

And that's perfectly fine, Normal should indeed mean an experienced RTS player crushing the game after a couple of weeks. Easy should be for RTS casuals, Very Easy for RTS beginners, and Extremely Easy could be basically what Sandbox is (removing the name Sandbox just to be more consistent with nomenclature). One would then have Hard, Very Hard and Extremely Hard, ideally quite separated between them, for something actually challenging (Petra stupidity allowing). On these levels, unit upgrades should indeed happen, but it seems for some reason it's somehow hard to code. In any case, I have not seen a 1v7 on Very Hard yet, after all overwhelming numbers can sometimes make for plain stupidity.

Edited 1 hour ago by Thalatta