"Germans"

[Lech]

On 29/01/2025 at 1:03 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Finish the Cimbri faction (early Germans)

This need a slight correction. Cimbri were early germanic tribe, not early germans. German country was invented in 1871, after the dissolution of Holy Roman Empire, by Prussia. Germanic tribes predates it by about 2000 years, and a lot of other current and former countries have more claims to be it's successor than germany. Moreover, it's just english that call the current german country german, even they themselves don't call themselves like that (Deutsch), and their neighbors call them Allemani, Niemcy or Tyskland. Please, stop calling them germans. Thank you.

Edited February 12 by Lech

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Lech said:

Moreover, it's just english that call the current german country german

The game is built in English, so "Germans" and "Germany" is correct in English.

And in the German language as far as I know, the word for Germanic people is Germanen. 

 

[Stan`]

Could be Germanic Tribes?

We don't do gaul tribes though.

 

[hyperion]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples

Starts with "Not to be confused with Germans."

Then goes on with suggesting Germani. "The term Germani is generally only used to refer to historical peoples from the 1st to 4th centuries CE"

Something else to consider we also don't group Greeks but have Athens, Macedonians and so forth in game.

All in all I see why lots of people would feel wired about using Germans here.

[Gurken Khan]

7 hours ago, Lech said:

(Deutch)

Deutsch, while you're nitpicking, and it wasn't invented in 1871.

7 hours ago, Lech said:

and their neighbors call them Allemani, Niemcy or Tyskland

(Not a complete list.)

13 minutes ago, hyperion said:

Something else to consider we also don't group Greeks

Aren't they grouped as Hellenics?

I haven't fully dived into the subject, but I believe Germanics fit better than Germans.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I'm actually partial to naming the civ Cimbri again. I've done so in my own mod.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

9 hours ago, hyperion said:

Something else to consider we also don't group Greeks but have Athens, Macedonians and so forth in game.

We did group them when it was 1 civ. We only differentiated them by name when we split them up into their constituent civs.

[Outis]

6 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I'm actually partial to naming the civ Cimbri again. I've done so in my own mod.

But you have other Germanic tribes in the mod as well

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Outis said:

But you have other Germanic tribes in the mod as well

True, so it makes sense to differentiate. 

[Outis]

And I think for EA not all heroes and references are necessarily from the Cimbri tribe.

12 hours ago, hyperion said:

Starts with "Not to be confused with Germans.

I think the intention is to dissociate the ancient faction from the modern nation.

12 hours ago, hyperion said:

Then goes on with suggesting Germani.

I will suggest to name the faction Germanians.

[Stan`]

@Genava55 Any thoughts?

I only gave a quick look to the civilization. But I would hate for it to be a terrible representation of the civ.

[Genava55]

5 hours ago, Stan` said:

@Genava55 Any thoughts?

I only gave a quick look to the civilization. But I would hate for it to be a terrible representation of the civ.

The word "Germani" is first popularized by Caesar, he used it to group a large population under one label and he built a narrative with it. There is a debate among scholars to know if Caesar was really the original source, maybe Posidonius of Apameia was the actual original transmitter of the word. But there is no consensus. Furthermore, there is a plausible hypothesis where Posidonius transmitted the named "Germani" to specifically speak about a tribe, not a large group. Tacitus mentioned that the name was originally applied to the Tungri only, then it has been generalized to others. Maybe Tacitus was relying on Posidonius because Caesar doesn't mention the Tungri. Caesar mentions the Aduatuci, the Condrusi, the Eburones, the Caeraesi and the Paemani as being commonly named Germans. Which is interesting because the Tungri could be another name of the Aduatuci. Finally there is something interesting in relation to the Cimbri here: The Aduatuci are a remnant of the Cimbri and Teutones who tried to invade the Belgians and failed. This is explained by Caesar. So the descendants of the Cimbri and Teutones could have been called Germans a few decades after their wandering.

Thus, the Romans did call a large population Germans. German is not a label the tribes used to call themselves, but so do is the name Gaul. The concern with the name Germans and its correspondence with present-day Germans dates back to the Second World War and the Nazis' use of the Germanic theme as an ideological justification. But at no point is anyone going to make the same criticism of the use of the name Greek for the ancient populations of Greece when the Greeks of today bear the same name. The same goes for the Egyptians, the Chinese, the Belgians etc. I don't see why today's Germans should have exclusive use of this name. What's more, the problem only exists with English, and the world does not revolve around Anglo-Saxon countries alone. ‘Deutsch’ in German. ‘Allemands’ in French. ‘Tedeschi’ in Italian. ‘Alemán’ in Spanish.

For me, the only problem with the Cimbri is that they come into conflict with a future faction of the Germans and that they're a single, relatively unknown people. The concept seems interesting, although I haven't tried the faction out yet. If we rename the Cimbri as Germans, it is fine for me. Although it is a bit sad to reduce the Germans to a single tribe.

Edited February 13 by Genava55

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I'd be ok with Germans or Cimbri. I suppose we could break the norm of 1 word civs and call it the Cimbrian Alliance.

 

[Genava55]

Germans would be the most consistent with the other civs.

Edited February 13 by Genava55

[Stan`]

I don't imagine there is an equivalent to Celts? Germanic Tribes might work ?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

5 minutes ago, Stan` said:

I don't imagine there is an equivalent to Celts? Germanic Tribes might work ?

Even "Celts" comes from Greek "Keltoi." Is that true @Genava55?

[Lech]

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

Germans would be the most consistent with the other civs.

Like Hellens for example, wait not. It's Athenians, Spartans and Macedonian.

Cimbri would be a good choice, maybe Markomani or Semnones.

[Stan`]

28 minutes ago, Lech said:

Like Hellens for example, wait not. It's Athenians, Spartans and Macedonian.

Because those are actually documented. Cimbri -500 0 A.D. are not.

[Genava55]

5 hours ago, Stan` said:

I don't imagine there is an equivalent to Celts? Germanic Tribes might work ?

Caesar said the Gauls called themselves Celts. The Celts was the first name reported in the literature, as Keltoi by the Greeks (Herodotus, Hecateus of Miletus, Aristotle). Only later the name Gauls (Galli in Latin and Galatai in Greek) have been popularized. But the Gauls called themselves Celts. We also know a few tribes in Iberia used the name Celtici.

The Britons probably not. In fact all the so-called Celtic people of the British Isles and Ireland, never have been called Celts and never have called themselves Celts in their literature. It is a much later invention when scholars realized the links between the languages (Gaelic, Welsh, Gaulish etc.). And also the mention of druids in both sides. The modern use of the word Celtic is different from the meaning it had during the ancient times.

The same for German and Germanic. Numerous tribes have been called Germanic, but not all. For example the Goths never have been called Germans or Germanic. We know they spoke a Germanic language, but it is a modern view. Not the view they had in the past.

For the Romans, Gauls and Germans are mostly equivalent. The labels are used for a large contiguous population divided in different tribes but occuping approximately the same geographical region. Every outsider from a geographical point of view, like the Britons and the Goths, were not included in the groupings. 

3 hours ago, Lech said:

Like Hellens for example, wait not. It's Athenians, Spartans and Macedonian.

In the first iterations of 0 A.D., they were grouped in a single Greek civ. 

The only reason they are not, is for the gameplay. There is enough material among Greek city-states and Hellenic kingdoms to make several civs with enough diversity.

But the Iberian civ for example is a extreme case of mixing in 0 A.D., like a patch-work of several different cultures.

2 hours ago, Stan` said:

Because those are actually documented. Cimbri -500 0 A.D. are not.

Cimbri are documented, their wandering happened at least between 113-101 BC. Although there is not that much info on them, they are a known people.

They are not the first Germanic population appearing in the historical records, this would be the Bastarnae/Skiri. 

Edited February 13 by Genava55

[Genava55]

22 hours ago, Stan` said:

I don't imagine there is an equivalent to Celts? Germanic Tribes might work ?

Another name plausible is Teutones.

The name the Germans gave themselves was probably something like this.

*þeudō in proto-germanic would mean 'people' and its derivations as *þeudiskaz 'from the people' and *ϸeudanōz 'those from the people' would be close to the word Teutones. In Proto-Indo-European, *teutonōs would mean "one from the people".

Deutsch derives from this.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/deutsch

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

7 hours ago, Classic-Burger said:

Could that happen with India and China?

There were more dynasties in those times.

They are already differentiated by dynasty. Mauryas and Han.

[Genava55]

4 hours ago, Classic-Burger said:

But Han was not the only dynasty, nor were the Maurya the only Indian kingdom.

For the moment, they are the only representatives of these peoples. But potentially, we could have several representatives of certain civilizations. I am thinking in particular of the Romans, the Persians and the Chinese.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

9 hours ago, Classic-Burger said:

But Han was not the only dynasty, nor were the Maurya the only Indian kingdom.

That's true, but we already don't call them just "Indians" or "Chinese." We differentiate them already. Yes, later we could add the Guptas and Tang.

[Genava55]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Yes, later we could add the Guptas and Tang.

Warring states China would be nice too.

[Genava55]

Caesar, book 1, ch. 1:

Quote

All Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which the Belgae inhabit, the Aquitani another, those who in their own language are called Celts, in our Gauls, the third. All these differ from each other in language, customs and laws. The river Garonne separates the Gauls from the Aquitani; the Marne and the Seine separate them from the Belgae. Of all these, the Belgae are the bravest, because they are furthest from the civilization and refinement of [our] Province, and merchants least frequently resort to them, and import those things which tend to effeminate the mind; and they are the nearest to the Germans, who dwell beyond the Rhine, with whom they are continually waging war; for which reason the Helvetii also surpass the rest of the Gauls in valor, as they contend with the Germans in almost daily battles, when they either repel them from their own territories, or themselves wage war on their frontiers. One part of these, which it has been said that the Gauls occupy, takes its beginning at the river Rhone; it is bounded by the river Garonne, the ocean, and the territories of the Belgae; it borders, too, on the side of the Sequani and the Helvetii, upon the river Rhine, and stretches toward the north. The Belgae rises from the extreme frontier of Gaul, extend to the lower part of the river Rhine; and look toward the north and the rising sun. Aquitania extends from the river Garonne to the Pyrenaean mountains and to that part of the ocean which is near Spain: it looks between the setting of the sun, and the north star.

Caesar, book 1, ch. 2:

Quote

Among the Helvetii, Orgetorix was by far the most distinguished and wealthy. He, when Marcus Messala and Marcus Piso were consuls, incited by lust of sovereignty, formed a conspiracy among the nobility, and persuaded the people to go forth from their territories with all their possessions, [saying] that it would be very easy, since they excelled all in valor, to acquire the supremacy of the whole of Gaul. To this he the more easily persuaded them, because the Helvetii, are confined on every side by the nature of their situation; on one side by the Rhine, a very broad and deep river, which separates the Helvetian territory from the Germans; on a second side by the Jura, a very high mountain, which is [situated] between the Sequani and the Helvetii; on a third by the Lake of Geneva, and by the river Rhone, which separates our Province from the Helvetii. From these circumstances it resulted, that they could range less widely, and could less easily make war upon their neighbors; for which reason men fond of war [as they were] were affected with great regret. They thought, that considering the extent of their population, and their renown for warfare and bravery, they had but narrow limits, although they extended in length 240, and in breadth 180 [Roman] miles.

Caesar, book 6, ch. 24:

Quote

And there was formerly a time when the Gauls excelled the Germans in prowess, and waged war on them offensively, and, on account of the great number of their people and the insufficiency of their land, sent colonies over the Rhine. Accordingly, the Volcae Tectosages, seized on those parts of Germany which are the most fruitful [and lie] around the Hercynian forest, (which, I perceive, was known by report to Eratosthenes and some other Greeks, and which they call Orcynia), and settled there. Which nation to this time retains its position in those settlements, and has a very high character for justice and military merit; now also they continue in the same scarcity, indigence, hardihood, as the Germans, and use the same food and dress; but their proximity to the Province and knowledge of commodities from countries beyond the sea supplies to the Gauls many things tending to luxury as well as civilization. Accustomed by degrees to be overmatched and worsted in many engagements, they do not even compare themselves to the Germans in prowess.

Tacitus, Germania:

Quote

The various peoples of Germany are separated from the Gauls by the Rhine, from the Raetians and Pannonians by the Danube, and from the Sarmatians and Dacians by mountains -- or, where there are no mountains, by mutual fear. The northern parts of the country are girdled by the sea, flowing round broad peninsulas and vast islands where a campaign of the present century has revealed to us the existence of some nations and kings hitherto unknown. The Rhine rises in a remote and precipitous height of the Raetian Alps and afterwards turns slightly westward to flow into the North Sea. The Danube issues from a gentle slop of moderate height in the Black Forest, and after passing more peoples than the Rhine in its course discharges itself into the Black Sea through six channels -- a seventh mouth being lost in marshlands.

As to the Germans themselves, I think it probable that they are indegenous and that very little foreign blood has been introduced either by invasians or by friendly dealings with neighboring peoples. For in former times it was not by land but on shipboard that would-be immigrants arrived; and the limitless ocean that lies beyond the coasts of Germany, and as it were defies intruders, is seldom visited by ships from our part of the world. And to say nothing of the perils of that wild and unknown sea, who would have been likely to leave Asia Minor, North Africa, or Italy, to go to Germany with its forbidding landscapes and unpleasant climate - a country that is thankless to till and dismal to behold for anyone who was not born and bred there?

In the traditional songs which form their only record of the past the Germans celebrate an earth-born god called Tuisto. His son Mannus is supposed to be the fountain-head of their race and himself to have begotten three sons who gave their names to three groups of tribes - the Ingaevones, nearest the sea; the Herminones, in the interior; and the Istaevones, who comprise all the rest. Some authorities, with the freedom of conjecture permitted by remote antiquity, assert that Tuisto had more numerous descendants and mention more tribal groups such as Marsi, Gambrivii, Suebi, and Vandilii - names which they affirm to be both genuine and ancient. The name Germania, however, is said to have been only recently applied to the country. The first people to cross the Rhine and appropriate Gallic territory, though they are known nowadays as Tungri, were at that time called German; and what was at first the name of this one tribe, not of the entire race, gradually came into general use in the wider sense. It was first applied to the whole people by the conquerors of the Gauls, to frighten them; later, all the Germans adopted it and called themselves by the new name.

The Germans, like many other peoples, are said to have been visited by Hercules, and they sing of him as the foremost of all the heroes when they are about to engage in battle. Ulysses also, in all those fabled wanderings of his, is supposed by some to have reached the northern sea and visited German lands, and to have founded and named Asciburgium, a town on the Rhine inhabited to this day. They even add that an altar consecrated by Ulysses and inscribed also with the name of his father Laertes was discovered long ago at this same place, and that certain barrows with monuments upon them bearing Greek inscriptions still exist on the borders of Germany and Raetia. I do not intend to argue either for or against these assertions; each man must accept or reject them as he feels inclined.