"Germans"

[Lech]

On 29/01/2025 at 1:03 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Finish the Cimbri faction (early Germans)

This need a slight correction. Cimbri were early germanic tribe, not early germans. German country was invented in 1871, after the dissolution of Holy Roman Empire, by Prussia. Germanic tribes predates it by about 2000 years, and a lot of other current and former countries have more claims to be it's successor than germany. Moreover, it's just english that call the current german country german, even they themselves don't call themselves like that (Deutsch), and their neighbors call them Allemani, Niemcy or Tyskland. Please, stop calling them germans. Thank you.

Edited February 12 by Lech

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Lech said:

Moreover, it's just english that call the current german country german

The game is built in English, so "Germans" and "Germany" is correct in English.

And in the German language as far as I know, the word for Germanic people is Germanen. 

 

[Stan`]

Could be Germanic Tribes?

We don't do gaul tribes though.

 

[hyperion]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples

Starts with "Not to be confused with Germans."

Then goes on with suggesting Germani. "The term Germani is generally only used to refer to historical peoples from the 1st to 4th centuries CE"

Something else to consider we also don't group Greeks but have Athens, Macedonians and so forth in game.

All in all I see why lots of people would feel wired about using Germans here.

[Gurken Khan]

7 hours ago, Lech said:

(Deutch)

Deutsch, while you're nitpicking, and it wasn't invented in 1871.

7 hours ago, Lech said:

and their neighbors call them Allemani, Niemcy or Tyskland

(Not a complete list.)

13 minutes ago, hyperion said:

Something else to consider we also don't group Greeks

Aren't they grouped as Hellenics?

I haven't fully dived into the subject, but I believe Germanics fit better than Germans.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I'm actually partial to naming the civ Cimbri again. I've done so in my own mod.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

9 hours ago, hyperion said:

Something else to consider we also don't group Greeks but have Athens, Macedonians and so forth in game.

We did group them when it was 1 civ. We only differentiated them by name when we split them up into their constituent civs.

[Outis]

6 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I'm actually partial to naming the civ Cimbri again. I've done so in my own mod.

But you have other Germanic tribes in the mod as well

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Outis said:

But you have other Germanic tribes in the mod as well

True, so it makes sense to differentiate. 

[Outis]

And I think for EA not all heroes and references are necessarily from the Cimbri tribe.

12 hours ago, hyperion said:

Starts with "Not to be confused with Germans.

I think the intention is to dissociate the ancient faction from the modern nation.

12 hours ago, hyperion said:

Then goes on with suggesting Germani.

I will suggest to name the faction Germanians.

[Stan`]

@Genava55 Any thoughts?

I only gave a quick look to the civilization. But I would hate for it to be a terrible representation of the civ.

[seeh]

On 12/02/2025 at 12:55 AM, Lech said:

This need a slight correction. Cimbri were early germanic tribe, not early germans. German country was invented in 1871, after the dissolution of Holy Roman Empire, by Prussia. Germanic tribes predates it by about 2000 years, and a lot of other current and former countries have more claims to be it's successor than germany. Moreover, it's just english that call the current german country german, even they themselves don't call themselves like that (Deutsch), and their neighbors call them Allemani, Niemcy or Tyskland. Please, stop calling them germans. Thank you.

Because me English is very limited (also historical skill / not interesting for me) and i often understand longer sentences wrong i asked gemini AI. And i will show you the result here.

 

Quote

Okay, let's break down the statement and assess its truthfulness point by point:

1. "This need a slight correction. Cimbri were early germanic tribe, not early germans."

True, but nuanced. The Cimbri were a Germanic tribe (or a group of tribes that included Germanic elements). They predate the clear formation of a unified "German" identity or state. Calling them simply "early Germans" would be an oversimplification because the concept of "German" as a national identity hadn't yet developed. "Germanic tribe" is more accurate.

2. "German country was invented in 1871, after the dissolution of Holy Roman Empire, by Prussia."

Mostly True, but with important context. The German Empire was indeed formed in 1871 under Prussian leadership after the Franco-Prussian War. It was a pivotal moment in German history, creating a unified national state for the first time in centuries. The Holy Roman Empire was dissolved in 1806, leaving a collection of independent states. So, in that sense, the "German country" as a unified nation-state was "invented" in 1871. However, this ignores the preceding centuries of shared culture, language, and history among the people who inhabited the region that would become Germany. While a unified political entity was new, a shared cultural identity existed before 1871.

3. "Germanic tribes predates it by about 2000 years, and a lot of other current and former countries have more claims to be it's successor than germany."

True (in the first half) and Debatable (in the second half). Germanic tribes existed well before 1871, going back centuries BCE. As for other countries having a better claim to be Germany's successor, it's subjective and depends on what you mean by "successor." Germany is the direct continuation of the German Empire, inheriting its territory and population (with some changes after wars). So, in a political and territorial sense, Germany is undoubtedly its own successor. Other regions may also be considered successors to certain German regions.

4. "Moreover, it's just english that call the current german country german, even they themselves don't call themselves like that (Deutsch), and their neighbors call them Allemani, Niemcy or Tyskland. Please, stop calling them germans. Thank you."

Partially True, and the conclusion is overly strong.

"It's just english that call the current german country german..." This is factually incorrect. Many languages use variations of "German" to refer to the country and its people. (For example, in French "allemand".)

"...even they themselves don't call themselves like that (Deutsch)..." True, Germans refer to themselves as "Deutsch(e)," and their country as "Deutschland." Many languages, however, do not use that word, but instead use a term derived from the Latin "Germania," which is the origin of the English word "German."

"...and their neighbors call them Allemani, Niemcy or Tyskland." True. These are exonyms (names used by people outside of Germany) and reflect different historical encounters with various Germanic tribes. "Allemani" is the root of the French word for German ("allemand"), "Niemcy" is used in some Slavic languages, and "Tyskland" is Scandinavian.

"Please, stop calling them germans." This is a strong, unnecessary, and unrealistic request. The term "German" is widely understood and accepted in English. While acknowledging that it's an exonym is valid, demanding its abandonment is not practical.

It's important to be aware of different perspectives and origins of names, but the term "German" is the standard English term and has a long history.

In summary:

The statement mixes accurate historical points with a degree of pedantry and an unwarranted demand.

The historical context about the Cimbri and the formation of the German Empire is generally correct.

The information about the different names used for Germany in other languages is also accurate.

However, demanding that people stop using the established English term "German" is unreasonable and ignores the common use and understanding of the word. The argument comes across as nationalistic and overzealous about terminology.

Essentially, it's a case of someone knowing some interesting etymological and historical facts and wanting to impose their preferred terminology on others. While understanding the background of the word "German" is valuable, the conclusion is excessive.

==> " ... Essentially, it's a case of someone knowing some interesting etymological and historical facts and wanting to impose their preferred terminology on others. While understanding the background of the word "German" is valuable, the conclusion is excessive."

[Genava55]

5 hours ago, Stan` said:

@Genava55 Any thoughts?

I only gave a quick look to the civilization. But I would hate for it to be a terrible representation of the civ.

The word "Germani" is first popularized by Caesar, he used it to group a large population under one label and he built a narrative with it. There is a debate among scholars to know if Caesar was really the original source, maybe Posidonius of Apameia was the actual original transmitter of the word. But there is no consensus. Furthermore, there is a plausible hypothesis where Posidonius transmitted the named "Germani" to specifically speak about a tribe, not a large group. Tacitus mentioned that the name was originally applied to the Tungri only, then it has been generalized to others. Maybe Tacitus was relying on Posidonius because Caesar doesn't mention the Tungri. Caesar mentions the Aduatuci, the Condrusi, the Eburones, the Caeraesi and the Paemani as being commonly named Germans. Which is interesting because the Tungri could be another name of the Aduatuci. Finally there is something interesting in relation to the Cimbri here: The Aduatuci are a remnant of the Cimbri and Teutones who tried to invade the Belgians and failed. This is explained by Caesar. So the descendants of the Cimbri and Teutones could have been called Germans a few decades after their wandering.

Thus, the Romans did call a large population Germans. German is not a label the tribes used to call themselves, but so do is the name Gaul. The concern with the name Germans and its correspondence with present-day Germans dates back to the Second World War and the Nazis' use of the Germanic theme as an ideological justification. But at no point is anyone going to make the same criticism of the use of the name Greek for the ancient populations of Greece when the Greeks of today bear the same name. The same goes for the Egyptians, the Chinese, the Belgians etc. I don't see why today's Germans should have exclusive use of this name. What's more, the problem only exists with English, and the world does not revolve around Anglo-Saxon countries alone. ‘Deutsch’ in German. ‘Allemands’ in French. ‘Tedeschi’ in Italian. ‘Alemán’ in Spanish.

For me, the only problem with the Cimbri is that they come into conflict with a future faction of the Germans and that they're a single, relatively unknown people. The concept seems interesting, although I haven't tried the faction out yet. If we rename the Cimbri as Germans, it is fine for me. Although it is a bit sad to reduce the Germans to a single tribe.

Edited February 13 by Genava55

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I'd be ok with Germans or Cimbri. I suppose we could break the norm of 1 word civs and call it the Cimbrian Alliance.

 

[Genava55]

Germans would be the most consistent with the other civs.

Edited February 13 by Genava55

[Stan`]

I don't imagine there is an equivalent to Celts? Germanic Tribes might work ?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

5 minutes ago, Stan` said:

I don't imagine there is an equivalent to Celts? Germanic Tribes might work ?

Even "Celts" comes from Greek "Keltoi." Is that true @Genava55?

[Lech]

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

Germans would be the most consistent with the other civs.

Like Hellens for example, wait not. It's Athenians, Spartans and Macedonian.

Cimbri would be a good choice, maybe Markomani or Semnones.

[Stan`]

28 minutes ago, Lech said:

Like Hellens for example, wait not. It's Athenians, Spartans and Macedonian.

Because those are actually documented. Cimbri -500 0 A.D. are not.

[Genava55]

5 hours ago, Stan` said:

I don't imagine there is an equivalent to Celts? Germanic Tribes might work ?

Caesar said the Gauls called themselves Celts. The Celts was the first name reported in the literature, as Keltoi by the Greeks (Herodotus, Hecateus of Miletus, Aristotle). Only later the name Gauls (Galli in Latin and Galatai in Greek) have been popularized. But the Gauls called themselves Celts. We also know a few tribes in Iberia used the name Celtici.

The Britons probably not. In fact all the so-called Celtic people of the British Isles and Ireland, never have been called Celts and never have called themselves Celts in their literature. It is a much later invention when scholars realized the links between the languages (Gaelic, Welsh, Gaulish etc.). And also the mention of druids in both sides. The modern use of the word Celtic is different from the meaning it had during the ancient times.

The same for German and Germanic. Numerous tribes have been called Germanic, but not all. For example the Goths never have been called Germans or Germanic. We know they spoke a Germanic language, but it is a modern view. Not the view they had in the past.

For the Romans, Gauls and Germans are mostly equivalent. The labels are used for a large contiguous population divided in different tribes but occuping approximately the same geographical region. Every outsider from a geographical point of view, like the Britons and the Goths, were not included in the groupings. 

3 hours ago, Lech said:

Like Hellens for example, wait not. It's Athenians, Spartans and Macedonian.

In the first iterations of 0 A.D., they were grouped in a single Greek civ. 

The only reason they are not, is for the gameplay. There is enough material among Greek city-states and Hellenic kingdoms to make several civs with enough diversity.

But the Iberian civ for example is a extreme case of mixing in 0 A.D., like a patch-work of several different cultures.

2 hours ago, Stan` said:

Because those are actually documented. Cimbri -500 0 A.D. are not.

Cimbri are documented, their wandering happened at least between 113-101 BC. Although there is not that much info on them, they are a known people.

They are not the first Germanic population appearing in the historical records, this would be the Bastarnae/Skiri. 

Edited Thursday at 22:42 by Genava55

[Genava55]

22 hours ago, Stan` said:

I don't imagine there is an equivalent to Celts? Germanic Tribes might work ?

Another name plausible is Teutones.

The name the Germans gave themselves was probably something like this.

*þeudō in proto-germanic would mean 'people' and its derivations as *þeudiskaz 'from the people' and *ϸeudanōz 'those from the people' would be close to the word Teutones. In Proto-Indo-European, *teutonōs would mean "one from the people".

Deutsch derives from this.

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/deutsch

 

[Classic-Burger]

On 12/02/2025 at 10:20 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

We did group them when it was 1 civ. We only differentiated them by name when we split them up into their constituent civs.

Could that happen with India and China?

There were more dynasties in those times.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

7 hours ago, Classic-Burger said:

Could that happen with India and China?

There were more dynasties in those times.

They are already differentiated by dynasty. Mauryas and Han.

[Classic-Burger]

On 15/02/2025 at 8:27 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

They are already differentiated by dynasty. Mauryas and Han.

But Han was not the only dynasty, nor were the Maurya the only Indian kingdom.

[Genava55]

4 hours ago, Classic-Burger said:

But Han was not the only dynasty, nor were the Maurya the only Indian kingdom.

For the moment, they are the only representatives of these peoples. But potentially, we could have several representatives of certain civilizations. I am thinking in particular of the Romans, the Persians and the Chinese.