Thorfinn the Shallow Minded Posted February 8 Report Share Posted February 8 With Alpha 27's release, there are many things I appreciate about the design improvements. One thing, however, that I think is a problem is the implementation of Hippocrates for Athens. Simply speaking, he was not Athenian, being born on the island of Kos. While he probably travelled to Athens, he was an itinerant physician. Having non-combat heroes is a good idea, but I think there are some much more obvious and much more Athenian choices. Ones such as Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle come to mind, but also depicting the theatre side with people like Euripides, Sophocles, Aristophanes, or Menander could also be welcome. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genava55 Posted February 8 Report Share Posted February 8 (edited) @borg- I think you are the author of this change right? 52 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said: Simply speaking, he was not Athenian, being born on the island of Kos. While he probably travelled to Athens, he was an itinerant physician. To be fair it is not worse than the Marian reform, which didn't exist but is a modern construction from the historiography. Maybe we can let this one pass, although we need to explicitly say in the encyclopedia he is not Athenian and it has been decided for the gameplay. Edited February 8 by Genava55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfinn the Shallow Minded Posted February 8 Author Report Share Posted February 8 1 hour ago, Genava55 said: @borg- I think you are the author of this change right? To be fair it is not worse than the Marian reform, which didn't exist but is a modern construction from the historiography. Maybe we can let this one pass, although we need to explicitly say in the encyclopedia he is not Athenian and it has been decided for the gameplay. I will admit that this is a bit of a quibble, but this would not be the first time a hero has changed for similar reasons. Xenophon used to be an Athenian hero, which was quite strange given his devotion to Sparta. Also, by having Hippocrates as a hero for Athens, we shaft actual Athenian physicians such as the admittedly legendary Agnodice or perhaps the more relevant Aristotle, who did clearly make some advances in biology. Regardless of that, I think representing the Athenian place in philosophy would be much better than its place in medicine by depicting a man from Kos. The point is that the gameplay effect could remain the same; let's just change the name. As for the matter of Marian Reforms, if that seems problematic, we could use different term like Professionalisation, Professional Reforms, or just Reforms. I could get behind that since it would make the incongruity of having Marian reforms without Marius disappear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowgetoffyourcellphone Posted February 8 Report Share Posted February 8 I propose this: Keep Hippocrates, but move him to the Greek shrines, that way you can capture a shrine and then train him (just once per player). He's not bound to any specific civ. For an Athenian non-combat hero, I suggest Socrates and we come up with some other kind of bonus for him besides healing. Perhaps the Athenian version of the Han Minister or (Maur) Chanakya. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic-Burger Posted February 8 Report Share Posted February 8 32 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said: I propose this: Keep Hippocrates, but move him to the Greek shrines, that way you can capture a shrine and then train him (just once per player). He's not bound to any specific civ. For an Athenian non-combat hero, I suggest Socrates and we come up with some other kind of bonus for him besides healing. Perhaps the Athenian version of the Han Minister or (Maur) Chanakya. Minister hero then. At least he should be able to defend himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real_tabasco_sauce Posted February 8 Report Share Posted February 8 I read he was made an Athenian citizen, and elsewhere that Kos was in a partnership with athens during his lifetime. https://kos.gr/hippocrates/life-and-legacy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genava55 Posted February 8 Report Share Posted February 8 2.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg- Posted February 8 Report Share Posted February 8 The fact that he is not Athenian does not mean that he cannot be trained with this civilization, since he has a very strong identity with the Athenians. I based my idea on Pericles' invitation to Hippocrates to save the city. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grautvornix Posted February 8 Report Share Posted February 8 2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said: For an Athenian non-combat hero, I suggest Socrates and we come up with some other kind of bonus for him besides healing. Perhaps the Athenian version of the Han Minister or (Maur) Chanakya. IIRC, Sokrates was not a very popular philosopher, but he brought the method of questioning "truth" to some perfection. Wouldn't it make sense to give a bonus on education similar to the library for the Ptolemies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowgetoffyourcellphone Posted February 8 Report Share Posted February 8 38 minutes ago, Grautvornix said: IIRC, Sokrates was not a very popular philosopher, but he brought the method of questioning "truth" to some perfection. Wouldn't it make sense to give a bonus on education similar to the library for the Ptolemies? Right. I was thinking his nearby presence could make a building work faster (productionqueue; training and research). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowOfHassen Posted February 8 Report Share Posted February 8 23 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said: Right. I was thinking his nearby presence could make a building work faster (productionqueue; training and research). We also have Plato and Aristotle in Athens too. Personally, it'd be cool to give an option between Socrates and Aristotle because of their different ways of reasoning and each one does something different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfinn the Shallow Minded Posted February 8 Author Report Share Posted February 8 1 hour ago, borg- said: The fact that he is not Athenian does not mean that he cannot be trained with this civilization, since he has a very strong identity with the Athenians. I based my idea on Pericles' invitation to Hippocrates to save the city. You and Geneva make relevant points, and I am not against Hippocrates being present in the game to some capacity or another. At the very least he would make a fantastic hero for a campaign. That said, the main point I would still stress is that he did not establish at least to my knowledge any medical school to continue his traditions. After all he did wander. This is not discounting his massive contributions to the medical field; I would just note that they do not strike me as particularly Athenian in nature. If we contrast that with the case of Plato and Aristotle, the ruins of the Academy and the Lyceum show obvious impact for Athenian culture. While I am in no way wishing to disrespect Socrates, I think for the reason of his being executed makes his inclusion as a hero as controversial as Alcibiades as an Athenian hero. I would put forward Plato or Aristotle or the choice of one of the two as ShadowofHassan already said. While we're at it, Zeno for the Stoic school and even Epicurus could be depicted, but perhaps leaving it at just two would be preferable. I think that having the option revolve around garrisoning the philosopher in a building to boost its efficiency might be good. Perhaps in one case it could increase the work rate as Wowgetoffyourcellphone mentioned. The other could provide discounts to costs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowOfHassen Posted February 8 Report Share Posted February 8 Small correction-- I guess by Plato I do mean Socrates, because Plato says Socrates says X-- I get those confused... e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowgetoffyourcellphone Posted February 9 Report Share Posted February 9 I like Socrates as a hero because he actually fought in battles as a hoplite before becoming the famous philosopher. He even saved Alcibiades' life, I believe, when the Athenians were routed at the Battle of Delion, and was given a commendation for bravery. His execution was a reactionary blight on the Athenian government, similar in my mind to what they did to all of those poor generals and admirals after that naval battle they won (lol). You wouldn't disqualify Thucydides for having been banished, would you? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowOfHassen Posted February 9 Report Share Posted February 9 1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said: I like Socrates as a hero because he actually fought in battles as a hoplite before becoming the famous philosopher. He even saved Alcibiades' life, I believe, when the Athenians were routed at the Battle of Delion, and was given a commendation for bravery. His execution was a reactionary blight on the Athenian government, similar in my mind to what they did to all of those poor generals and admirals after that naval battle they won (lol). You wouldn't disqualify Thucydides for having been banished, would you? Could we do Socrates and Aristotle and give each different bonuses -- something like Socrates makes researching faster and cheaper, and Aristotle increases buildings of sight and units production quicker? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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