Unusual high sniping activity of very few players

[0 calories]

@ffm2 excellent work. I'm happy to see you confirm my words from the beggining.  Yes hardware mouse gives advantage as any better device. Anyway definitely it is not auto-snipping with programmed smart logic of targeting. 

Now we must decide if this is cheating (as you pointed your own opinion that it is cheating) or this is standard way how to utilize better hardware we have on the market. What do you guys think? Should we ban specific mouse types? or gaming keyboards? (just imagine with gaming  keyboard you also get 0.2ms advantage of poushing key) in general all better hw gives you little edge.

 

 

[Atrik]

21 minutes ago, 0 calories said:

confirm my words from the beggining.  Yes hardware mouse gives advantage as any better device. Anyway definitely it is not auto-snipping with programmed smart logic of targeting. 

Rly? What about the auto-sniping script that was the only explanation of why sometimes i lost for reason i couldn't grasp?

[0 calories]

21 minutes ago, Atrik said:

Rly? What about the auto-sniping script that was the only explanation of why sometimes i lost for reason i couldn't grasp?

is it the auto-snipping script you "rumours" delivered to Stockfish?  maybe share the replays what are you reffering to, let ffm2 or others to look into the activities. We don't want just spread rumors, lies etc.. right?

[borg-]

I bring a truth here, I will only be able to be defeated when they create a script that turns off my monitor, and maybe even then I will win 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

8 hours ago, 0 calories said:

in general all better hw gives you little edge.

The "little edge" you speak of is not cheating, if it were considered cheating, it would be impossible to catch or regulate.

click multipliers and macros are certainly detectable with tools like this one, but not obvious in real time. These should be considered cheating, but there is no practical means to regulate their use.

[ffm2]

I'm not talking about hardware. Hardware cheats could exist too, like in the video of the lego-mouse. I'm also not talking of lubricated keyboard switches, spring resistance or such. I'm talking about software. If it runs on your mouse it's called firmware. If some software on your OS post processes the key-hold to a key-tap it's also software. You get a advantage here by a piece of software. It's different than a benefit by having a bigger monitor, faster pc or adjusting the cpi value of the mouse.

One of this auto clickers is called razor turbo mode.

Some games that names the cheating cheating runescape, ea, minecraft

The razor users themself in their reddit says its ok (2 users)

Not everything need to be explained that it's cheating. If you have a person sitting in the room spectating and telling you game information that's also cheating, although no one specified it somewhere here (afaik). But it might be a idea to create such a site for rules of fair-play.

[Atrik]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

there is no practical means to regulate their use

Best solution would be to get rid of weak mechanics, usage of alt for targeting is clearly not adapted when you need to click 100 times.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I've been working on this partial solution for sniping (https://gitea.wildfiregames.com/0ad/0ad/pulls/6960) but its hard to get ppl to test, now I am pretty much too busy to worry about the rough sort idea. Unless someone can pull off a micacle and figure out the OOS. Depending on the release process, I might be able to get it working.

Even still, that is just a potential solution. You can't just "delete" sniping, unless you want to eliminate order-1-unit.

you can reduce its generalizability and effectiveness as I have tried. Further benefits would be to increase the ways in which units are counters of one another, which is very difficult with the citizen soldier model. I do have some ideas that could help but they are a long way off, although they could be tested with the com mod.

Edited 16 hours ago by real_tabasco_sauce

[Atrik]

9 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

You can't just "delete" sniping, unless you want to eliminate order-1-unit.

"order 1 unit" have use cases beyond sniping and eliminating features isn't suggested here. The problem is, if you want to control the attacks of a large group of units,  "order 1 unit" isn't adapted. When you are expected to have up to 200 units in selection, one could wish you had other means to control unit targeting then using alt for in loops of 200 clicks.

[Stockfish]

@Atrik is on it. Give him time 

[Stockfish]

Well, after watching you all have been investigating all of this that hard I will share my ''script of autosniping''.

I've always been open about using ProGUI and I've been open about this to people who've asked me and I haven't just said that I have an autosnipe script. As some of you may know, I have a gaming mouse that has a click multiplier. That way, with one click you can do 2,3 or 5. On top of that, I have a pretty high CPM. Then, I can also customize the mouse to change the position of the buttons, and my right click was the wheel. Each angle of rotation is one click. I'll let you imagine the rest. Those high clicks that you have seen are becouse of that wheel change. I invite you to test it if you can customize the buttons of your mouses.

Whether these are cheats is up to you, but in all competitive games there are these kinds of hardware manipulations. Mouse in the case of PC and Scuff controllers in the case of Play

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Stockfish

[Seleucids]

Hi, I would like to comment on a few things

1. I appreciate @ffm2 for his rigorous and scientific approach to his investigations. His experiments are repeatable and the results are reproducible, which enables us to peer review the situation. This is much more convincing compared to certain people spamming empty accusations and claims in the lobby. 

2. Simulation lag and pauses enable players to issue otherwise inhuman amounts of command in 1 turn. The record-breaking click rates were measured in 0ad's frame of reference, in which time runs much slower than real life, so for example @MarcusAureliu#s clicking 70 times in 1 turn is perfectly possible if the game is paused:

And the game was indeed paused. Jarno had to drink water in the middle of the fight, which gave MarcAurel a chance to spam click. 

3. The superior gaming mouse and the fast fingers of Sanafur and Stockfish combined with point 2 can explain their extreme sniping activity. Stockfish even revealed his technique so you can experiment and see if that's the case.

4. Points 2 and 3 are far more likely explanations than some legendary "snipe script". Till this day, no solid evidence of such a script has been shown. The myth is being weaponized by jealous losers to accuse players who won fights vs them. Please do not fall for their lies and trolling. 

5. Atrik's approach of changing unit attack class is a good idea, however, the units forget about their command as soon as the initial target is killed. It also results in some suicidal behaviours. But having this option to attack ranged units as a hotkey is certainly convenient.