Thalatta

What you are asking can't be reasonably done. It's not about doing a statistically validated poll, but what one reads (I can read plenty in three months), and perceives when taking up the game (maybe this was too long ago for you and many), after all, this thread started with "several posts that suggest that the current Petra is too difficult". That’s a start for something, and everything else I keep reading here, on Reddit, etc, makes it valid for me, considering the gap between Very Easy and Sandbox has already been mentioned before. And it's not that I don't care that some are having a positive experience, it's that that doesn't indicate there's no problem for some. Regarding pacing, as I've mentioned, it's a fact that production times are much faster than in other games, as discussed in the link I provided from this forum. Regarding speed of the game itself, I see that as less relevant than the other two things, but I do still think all this is mostly cosmetic, since once you choose the Competitive Preset, it just stays there, and one would use that for everything. Why do experienced players care what the default setting was at the beginning, if it's clear what the accepted competitive setting is? There’s no breaking of what already works, it’s all under the corresponding Preset. Actually, besides cosmetics, I also proposed the addition of levels, which was also mentioned by the OP. To summarise, I think the difficulty levels should be (for Aggressive, while for Balanced and Defensive rushes should be tuned down even more) something along these lines (or whatever approximation possible): -Sandbox: as it is now. -Extremely Easy: no rushes, small armies and defenses. -Very Easy: small rushes, medium armies and defenses. -Easy: medium rushes, decent armies and defenses. -Normal: decent rushes, large armies and defenses, comparable to other games, no warning should be needed. -Hard, Very Hard and Extremely Hard: only now large rushes, huge armies and defenses, EH at least as hard as SC2 brutal (or whatever is possible), VH and H more or less equidistantly filling the gap down to Normal. For hard levels, yes, for easy levels, no. It's like all difficulty levels seem clustered somewhere above the usual Normal, but don't reach as far as SC2 Brutal, which is not that brutal considering I'm far from being a pro, yet managed just fine.

In Normal 0 A.D., same, after a couple of lost matches I realised one had to hurry, and since then Very Hard wasn't a problem. When the AI was improved recently, again I lost a couple of matches, and realised I had to play even better, so the following few matches I've won on Very Hard (set always on Aggressive). But it seems some people just can’t do this as easily as we can (I just hold back because I don’t like to confront a game like I’m on cocaine, I just step up as it's necessary). Regarding SC2, I went straight to Brutal, and yes, a couple of Protoss scenarios took me the whole day, but I knew what I was going against, and this is kind of my point, it’s all about expectations, and not only 0 A.D. Normal is not normal (I don’t think one should read a guide and watch some videos for it, and, yet again, there’s a warning in the game itself), but apparently on Very Easy people are getting rushed. This should not happen, there’s a clear gap between that level and Sandbox, and not because the AI is smart, but because it makes rushes, and this is the core of the problem with the easy levels, which might be trivial for you and I, and for many others, but I don’t want to lose sight of those who have some RTS experience and have their expectations on what those difficulty levels should actually mean. Most of the rest of your answer is just dismissing their experience, do negative responses cancel their opinions? Do positive reviews brush off those who are frustrated? Is it not fast-paced for some, even when for others that’s a conditional thing? I don’t care about those who have a positive experience, good for them, that’s a non-issue, I worry about those who seem to be left behind. I got those links in 5 minutes, I could keep going and you know it, so let’s not waste time on ignoring an issue that’s there. I don’t necessarily say it is deliberate, it could well be accidental, which could be because this is a game made mostly by gamers that like the genre so much (this is, being quite experienced in it) that are willing to volunteer to code to make it. There’s a lot of knowledge about gameplay and balance, but this, seems to me, has shifted game too much to their preferences. I feel a “corporate” game tries to take more into account casuals and total beginners, because selling it really matters for them. So, I think there’s tension between what experienced RTS players want, and growing the game, for which I think is vital to consider what casuals and total beginners can actually do without delving into guides and videos, which, unsurprisingly, they are not going to do, they just want to play a game as they have played others. My proposal is just a cosmetic thing, how the game is presented out of the box, given that I think there’s plenty of evidence many are getting frustrated (which, again, doesn’t contradict that many are not, as I know is the case). The 0.8x speed idea is also mostly cosmetic, so I’m not sure why it would be so terrible (and with upgradeable Achievements one would be motivating people to play with Competitive Presets, which is the concept that wraps up everything), although I wonder if it would make infantry and cavalry speed difference more relevant (particularly if cavalry is made a bit faster, but these are unrelated gameplay discussions). For all I care, batch training could be made more advantageous, and there could be techs improving this even more, to replenish late armies faster, my worry is what happens in the early game (early for newbies! that's not 5 mins, that could be at least 20 mins), particularly on the easier difficulty levels. I never coded in JavaScript, but have done it in many other languages. As I mentioned somewhere else, I don’t like to do PRs, at least for now, because I don’t like to overload what’s already there, and, contrary to what you might think, I don’t want to try to impose my ideas, but to discuss first and see if there’s agreement on if there’s some merit to them.

Thanks for providing evidence to what I think is quite obvious. To add some more, a couple of reviews stating it’s fast-paced: https://blowingupbits.com/2014/02/0-a-d-the-land-between-time/ https://peakd.com/hive-140217/@macchiata/0ad-free-open-source-rts-game--a-gameplay And just to grab one of many posts in this forum, many here mentioning what I think, to the point that “the most competitive players are proposing some pretty extreme things” is stated, and indeed, there one can clearly see what I think is the "state of mind many in the community have" (I never said "all"): https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/130185-training-times-or-why-the-fastest-click-wins/ Here some frustrated players on Reddit, only over the last 3 months (but hey, these people don't exist for the tryharders): https://www.reddit.com/r/0ad/comments/1so1gzp/transition_from_very_easy_easy_is_too_hard/ https://www.reddit.com/r/0ad/comments/1ruix38/example_of_my_very_easy_mode_what/ https://www.reddit.com/r/0ad/comments/1qdf6qz/getting_smashed_fast_in_single_player_demo_a271/ An older post from someone that never had problems with AoE2 (mentioned as a hard game), but for 0 A.D. "just feels like noobs aren't welcomed" (!!!): https://www.reddit.com/r/0ad/comments/1hshm2g/why_is_easy_so_hard/ Indeed I think making things a bit slower would improve the experience for these people and many more, and actually, with this small sample of all the available evidence, I would say one could state that this is a fact. And to repeat myself yet again, this would only happen for a default Normal Preset, the Competitive Preset would leave everything as it is right now, and surely would be the preferred one for MP. Exactly. This is how casuals play. Let alone RTS beginners. This is my main premise.

Seriously do I have to quote myself again?

This is indeed a good question, and one I’m thoroughly unqualified to answer. I’d suspect Petra would be unable to deal with any of this and would need to also be modified, but this was just some brainstorming, @Asher is right on starting basic.

@guerringuerrin no, I'm basing my ideas on many premises, some are factual, some are opinions, and I think I've been quite clear which is which, but just in case (and going over everything I've said since my long post, you can check): it's a fact that the game states "the default AI level is quite challenging for new players", it's a fact production times are 3 times faster than SC2, I said I think that those wanting to explore the game wouldn't find that enjoyable, I said default options should be friendly for beginners (is this controversial?), it's a fact that the vast majority of players are only interested in SP (quoting AoE devs), I said I think the game a bit slower would be more attractive to most. I didn’t add I think when stating all would make the game more palatable for new players, but by now it should be obvious that’s my opinion, given all that came before. And then I brought up Achievements, which is obviously an idea coming from personal experience from other games, maybe others find them boring, but I would have liked hearing more opinions about that. I then said I think this would be a nice solution. Yet, you take issue with my subsequent statement (using your rephrasing, to which I agree) of “many people might get a bad impression of the game”, stating that that’s “based on personal opinions presented as if they were factual premises”. Well, here I gave you a summary of all what I’ve exactly said up to that point, so, where have I done that? So no, I’m not playing with semantics, that’s just how I’ve been stating things all along. I think I’ve been (luckily, I must say) quite clear on what is a fact, what I think, and what maybe could be, but you dismiss all that and take my last post (or its wording) as the basis of everything. Regarding my last post, first I just asked why not do this or that, based on what I’ve read, and personal experience, which I think is more aligned with SP experience, which is a fact is underrepresented online. Then, I didn’t fill it with “I think” like before not only because it was a fast response to someone, but because I was just rephrasing what I already said before with plenty of I think in front of it. And yes, I’ve read posts where some pushing for a more SP focused experience have been talked down into that they just don't understand the game, something I’ve argued already somewhere else is misleading. But, should I really scour the forum and quote all this? Quote the many times the default difficulty level issue has been brought up (particularly by newbies), quote the many opinions pushing the game towards more MP focus (like the proposal of removal of certain techs), quote the times it has been said this is a fast paced game? We both know these posts are there, and it would be a waste of time for me to do any of that. So, yes, I’d say many think like this, and I’m sure there are those that “hold a completely different view”, but those are not contradictory things, and that's not even the point, the point (or one of many) is that I’m not bringing up anything new (besides Achievements, I don’t think having read about that), I’m just packaging old ideas and combining them with the upgradeable Achievements idea.

I see it as either you implement it with ranges (a simplification), or you consider the transport (more realism). Using both at the same time seems adding conditions over conditions. Only ranges would cause clustered buildings. Besides the reasons already given, I favor (automatic) transport because it implies the need to lay out buildings in a realistic way (to have paths to go between them).

The reports should give an idea about the amount of people that will never post in a game's forum. In any case, I'm saying "won't necessarily have", it's not about solid proof, but about why to risk it, and have an artificial warning. Why not just have a normal Normal. I was surprised about how hard it was, not because it's hard in absolute terms (after all I finished SC2 on Brutal), but because it's hard for a normal level, and if on top of this there's a gap between Sandbox and Very Easy, then some adjustments seem recommendable. RTS in general (https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/honest-discussion-why-do-developers-struggle-to-design-good-rts/32757). Regarding your other questions, more like there's even an effort to remove SP features if they have no point in MP, as I've mentioned has happened in the case of certain techs. It's a state of mind many in the community have. It's not realising that production times 3 times faster than SC2, a clearly competitive game, is not the most enjoyable experience for the casual, which are the vast majority of players. I agree. I think of it more the other way though: ideas and content have to be driven by SP experience, balance and final mechanics by MP, in a way that accommodates enough interesting content so as not to make it dull and MP focused only.

I always say, refer to Earth 2150 for a great example of automatic supply lines. In it, units need ammunition, and there’s an ammunition building that produces a unit that automatically goes between that building and units that need ammo. The only thing one does is decide how many of these suppliers one wants, and the army should defend the supply lines. This is a great example of adding realism and novel game mechanics without additional micro. In 0 A.D., it would be similar to the Traders, but if possible even more automatic (a smelter could go to get the ores, a blacksmith could go to get the metal, this maybe going along with buildings having to have some base garrison to be functional). I would have these types of automatic units (Traders included) as a different kind of unit that cannot be selected unless some button is pressed (they are an annoyance most of the time).

I don't doubt most kids nowadays will beat me in 15 minutes, I mentioned them because they were mentioned, the point being that there are lots of other people that won't necessarily have a good first impression if Normal is not normal, a fact stated by the game itself. This is just a relabeling for them, to remove that artificial warning, and to open the door for upgradeable achievements (if that's wanted), none of this changes anything for present players. Yes, and I think the hardest AI difficulty should be indeed harder. But the point is 0 A.D. Normal AI being harder than most Normal/Medium AI in other games.

I wouldn't know what to put exactly where, I can only give historical facts and others can distribute them and their values over those 7 points Regarding the Iron Pillar, “Delhi” should be removed because it was moved there centuries later. Regarding the Aśvamedha ritual, bear in mind that it's ancient, but I didn't find a documented record before the end of the Maurya, it appears more often with Gupta emperors (haven't searched a lot though). As I’ve mentioned somewhere, better if things that existed from before are civ. bonuses, while things developed at the time of the civ. are researchable techs. For techs, maybe some written works, many are just compilations of what existed from before (like the Mahabharata and Ramayana). For some I get wildly different dates, for example, for Hastyayurveda, a veterinary treatise on elephants (that could give them more HP), I’ve found from the 5th century BC to the 11th century AD, which is saying almost nothing. Same for the Sushruta Samhita, an important medicine treatise with focus in surgery, dating from 2000 BC to the sixth century AD (maybe could be a civ. bonus for regeneration). Most advances are perfected from preexisting things, but some techs relevant for the period could be: -Aryabhatiya: mathematical and astronomical treatise by Aryabhata, for tech speed bonus, maybe construction speed bonus if one considers its geometry useful for that. -Khanda: crystallised sugar, starting an important industry, could be a Market bonus. -Chaturanga: first reference of the predecessor of Chess, not sure what to do about it. Something important was wootz (first high quality steel, used for Damascus steel), but comes from South India and from before, although the Gupta mastered its production. On the other hand, something not that important is that the large, sweet varieties of watermelons were developed at this time. Regarding the military, to deal with invading steppe nomads, both archer heavy cavalry and sword heavy cavalry were introduced to become the main component of the army, supported by the more traditional elephants and light infantry. Their bows were recurved, but it’s not known if they were composite.

I think one of the many Maya glyphs would be nice, but I don't know if there's one simbolising the Maya people. The closest I can do for now is to give one referring to one of their main cities, Tikal (the Maya lived in city states, not a unified empire, so it's like I'm giving you a glyph for Athens representing all Hellenes): https://www.famsi.org/research/pitts/MayaGlyphsBook1.pdf, on page 72, maybe the one on the right is the better one (all 4 glyphs mean Tikal, they had many ways to write the same thing).

Yes, that's totally understandable. Regarding the "multiple actor variations", does that mean one chooses, or could it be that the mound evolves from pebbles to grass with time? That would be nice if possible.

And that's perfectly fine, Normal should indeed mean an experienced RTS player crushing the game after a couple of weeks. Easy should be for RTS casuals, Very Easy for RTS beginners, and Extremely Easy could be basically what Sandbox is (removing the name Sandbox just to be more consistent with nomenclature). One would then have Hard, Very Hard and Extremely Hard, ideally quite separated between them, for something actually challenging (Petra stupidity allowing). On these levels, unit upgrades should indeed happen, but it seems for some reason it's somehow hard to code. In any case, I have not seen a 1v7 on Very Hard yet, after all overwhelming numbers can sometimes make for plain stupidity.

Well, a big part of "war" and "strategies" is logistics, and defending supply lines gives a depth beyond smashing against towers and fortresses. Funnily enough yesterday I was thinking about dropsites having a resource count and maximum capacity. You would indeed need to think how to automatise stuff to reduce micro as much as possible. For more economic buildings, just go more realistic: a mine could be built on some mineral resources (like in Rise of Nations), what you extract is ores, then a smelter or foundry would give you the metals, which can be sent to the blacksmith, or others. Maybe that's too much, but games like Caesar III work like that. For example, the idea was that wood can be stored in some warehouse, from there it can be sent to construction, or exported, or if you build a woodshop it can make furniture, which can be exported for more money, or sent to the market, which your population acquires, again maybe a bit too much, but that's the idea. Check that game maybe.

Exactly. I've actually thought about all this the other way around: I wanted to introduce "upgradeable" Achievements (which I enjoyed in games from Kingdom Rush to Sins of a Solar Empire), and at the same time I came across difficulty levels and PvP focus comments, so it all fell into place. I think from combining all these problems and views, a nice solution that makes everyone (or most) happy can be achieved.

The problem is that Very Easy and Easy should indeed be for kids, elders, and anyone who is in it for history, graphics, whatever, but just doesn't want to get rushed in 10 or 15 mins. Sandbox is not the solution because apparently not much happens, and some time ago someone said “the jump between Sandbox and Very Easy is too big”. So, it does seem that an extra easy level is needed, combined with that Normal shouldn’t be "for players having reached some intermediate playing level", or "about the level a somewhat competent player can beat consistently after 1-3 tries". Competent for 0 A.D. then? And measured by whom? Normal is not this in RTS, there's always certain implied equivalence between games, and this is a known issue, it has been brought up, I remember someone saying that it's the early attacks that get the newbies. And, again, the game states "the default AI level is quite challenging for new players", something I've never seen in any game before, a completely artificial situation, one shifts labels and no such thing happens, no clarification needed, there shouldn't be one in the first place. I don't understand the need to tell people that never had any problem in Normal/Medium in other RTS to stay in Easy or Very Easy until they git gud, and leave without a reasonable challenge those who might be below that level. Normal is so not normal that training times are around 3 times faster when compared to basic units and techs from StarCraft 2 in Brutal, which is ludicrous. I don't think most people wanting to explore the game in general would find that enjoyable. I think I’ve said it already: default options should be friendly for beginners, the vast majority of which will be more (or only) interested in SP. This paragraph might seem a bit offtopic, but I’ll connect everything with the difficulty levels. As known, this game caters too much to PvP: clickiness, rushes and tryharding have priority over strategy, tactics, and city-building. When someone complains, they have been told they want “a certain game experience that this project doesn't cater to”. There are many problems with that if the idea is to grow the game. Over 90% of gamers care only about SP (AoE numbers, similar for most). On the AoE forum, someone asks “why do developers struggle to design good RTS?”, and someone gives 7 points: half baked single player campaign, missing skirmish mode, missing editor tools, cliche soundtrack, making only multiplayer focused game, blatantly copying other games in genre and cheating AI. For 0 A.D., I think the MP issue is among the most blatant ones (not to mention the lack of a proper campaign, but I think other things should be fixed before that). It cannot be that if some tech is not optimal for MP then there are proposals to remove it. As someone said, they are there for SP, and that’s not a minor thing, at all. Just ignore the icon. Or better, propose how to make it interesting also for MP. Of course, there’ll be people saying “these changes are not part of the proposal and style that 0 A.D. seeks”, which doesn’t tend to be true if one actually reads the 0 A.D. Vision Document. Coming back to difficulty levels, maybe the AI is hard to code, but, as mentioned, people don’t like cheating AI (or advantages). I wonder if those gathering rate and trade gain modifications can be removed (except maybe on the hardest levels, if needed for a challenge), and the AI to be about when to attack, army sizes, defenses, and how efficiently other things are handled (techs, eco, etc). If Easy is the usual Medium, then that should be Normal, Very Easy should be Easy, and the apparent gap with Sandbox could be filled with a new Very Easy, and maybe another Extremely Easy, since the now nameless hardest level could acquire an Extremely Hard label. Maybe research, training and building rates should be independent speed options, and could be labelled as Normal 4x or 3x present times, some name for a possible 2x, and a Competitive 1x present times, to be used in PvP as it stands now. Regarding the speed of the game in general, I think barely slower would be more attractive to most, for example a Normal game speed of 0.8x the present one, making a Competitive 1.25x the present 1x, and 2.5x would be the present 2x Insane. To simplify things, “Presets” could be used, the "Normal" one selecting all Normal options, and the same with “Competitive”. All this not only makes the game more palatable for new players that will try things with default Normal settings, but also doesn’t change absolutely anything as things stand now if the Competitive Preset is selected. Besides, I think there's a way to incentivise people to play with Competitive Presets, with the hope that then they’ll have a go at MP (having more players in general should increase the ones going for MP anyway), and that is with Achievements. They are fun and addictive to get, and are good content for SP, giving objectives to be achieved in many possible ways. Maybe accounts or profiles would need to be introduced, so under a given one all played games would count for the Achievements. Each Achievement would be some nice icon, which would get decorated with background wings and lightning bolts (I have an idea to model them on some Roman scutum emblems) if obtained for harder difficulties and speed combinations, respectively, possibly handled with different Presets.

Really? I don't remember this, I usually play RTS in maximum difficulty (I remember SC2 on Brutal had some challenging scenarios, as it should be), and still I thought Normal in 0 A.D. wasn't the usual Normal. I doubt it's my imagination, newbies have mentioned this plenty of times, and even the game itself states "the default AI level is quite challenging for new players", which shouldn't be necessary to state if it was a normal Normal.

The AI has improved, but it's not "too difficult", I've won my last couple of Matches on Very Hard, and I suck at playing, I have never seen a video of what to actually do, and I don't care at all about mechanical playing really, I just boom the economy, build defenses, and then attack, all quite slowly. Now, it could be that Normal is indeed too difficult for newbies, but I disagree that this means, as mentioned somewhere else, that the AI or the game are intrinsically too difficult, the issue would be just with labelling. I think that what is artificially labelled as Normal should be equivalent to Normal in other RTS, if the idea is to be friendly with newbies, otherwise it seems to me just a pretentious semantic problem. Level naming has to be adjusted to RTS players, all of them, not just the vast minority that play competitive online matches (something I see as a recurring issue with this game). One could then keep adding levels anyway if more range is needed, to give a challenge to everyone (Extremely Easy/Hard, etc), and the most pros can always try their luck with a 1v7.

This didn't look right to me, so I checked: that's not a real Maya symbol, but a Mayanism one (New Age stuff), funnily enough based on an Aztec symbol. You can see the original Aztec one on page 13 of this scan of the Codex Magliabechiano: https://digicoll.lib.berkeley.edu/record/289019?v=pdf

Do you still need answers? Has there been a discussion about preferred units somewhere? Just a few things in the meantime. Regarding the great Gupta emperors, all were warriors and patrons of learning, giving them auras with combat and maybe tech speed bonuses. For their differences: -Chandra-gupta I: founder of the empire, unified territory through marriage, followed by conquest. Maybe capture bonus (since diplomacy mechanics are not that complex). -Samudra-gupta: the conqueror, put in place a great army, which probably included a navy. More combat, and military production speed bonuses. -Chandra-gupta II: patron of learning, similar to the previous one, but maybe the greatest. Brought to maturity the empire. Production or more tech speed bonuses. -Skanda-gupta: protector of the empire, successful against invasions, considered the last of the greats. Maybe structure's arrow count bonus. As an alternative, Aryabhata I: famous thinker (math, astronomy, physics), if having these non-combat heroes is a thing. Could greatly accelerate tech research speed when garrisoning a building. It’s hard for me not to give importance to the learning advances in this period, which I can only translate to tech research speed in the game (maybe could be balanced by having lots of techs to research). The Nalanda mahavihara could be a related unique structure, possibly a Wonder. Another unique structure could be the Delhi Iron Pillar, and the Aśvamedha ritual a unique tech (both could increase Hero/emperor’s stats).

Well, since there's Han and Mauryans and not just Chinese and Indians, it seems to me this has been the path the game has been taking for a while, whenever possible (for Britons, Germans and Iberians is a bit more complicated but maybe at some point enough information will be gathered to instead have at least a couple of representative tribes from each). Sasanians and Parthians, also Persian empires, for sure will make an appearance at some point in the base game, so a change from Persians to Achaemenids seems a necessity.

Yeah, but in my opinion a Wonder should ideally be a particular structure, which should be the name of the Wonder, instead of a generic "Kurgan" (if regarded as more inspiring, which I can see why). This also would guide better how it should look like. And should be. For sure it was maintained (which I doubt for kurgans, mainly after a few years). These damaged versions I'd leave for the future for, well, damaged buildings.

@Genava55 the point obviously is, as noted before, how something looks when it's freshly built. I mentioned the Colossus because it's a Wonder that came to mind that changed quite fast, thus the distinction between earthquakes and grass is quite irrelevant considering what the actual point is. And no, it was not "completely destroyed", it remained in the ground for centuries, still in its way a wonder, in words of Pliny the Elder: "even as it lies, it excites our wonder and admiration". But if earthquakes distract you so much, then another example more aligned to the grass issue: should the Statue of Liberty (assuming a game reaching the modern age) be built with the green patina already on it? Might look familiar, but it's inaccurate, which has been the point all along. Now, another issue is, is the Wonder some generic kurgan? Because yes, some had pebbles, others not, so maybe it should be decided first which kurgan in particular should be represented (the largest?), and if it never had pebbles to begin with then there's not much discussion to be had, I think. Personally I might have gone for the mausoleum of Skilurus (which seems more unique).

I agree with this. Green mounds would be like building a destroyed Colossus of Rhodes because it stood upright for only 54 years after completion (took 12 to build), and remained on the ground for over 8 centuries. And luckily the pebble covering looks much better than a simple green mound, but this wouldn't be an primary argument for me, since I'd limit artistic freedom and pay utmost importance to historical accuracy. If solid evidence is not available, then "visually engaging interpretations" have to come from educated guesses, which I would keep as conservative as possible.