Yekaterina

We are already encouraging different playstyles. For example, Spartans and Ptolemies encourage infantry, Carthaginians encourage mercenary rushes, Persians encourage cav and Mauryans encourage elephant spam. When Han comes in, we will see some new strategies involving clever use of techs and siege weapons, as well as placements of ministers. I am ok with changing the paddies a bit, but the proposed costs and farming rates above are simply unacceptable. But not too much! Consider any game with a random civ: you can't allow one civ to be able to destroy another civ completely at any given time. Right now, the Spartans can do a full infantry push against the Persians in P1 and they will have 0 way to defend against it. Don't try to dismiss me by saying 'build defence towers', because you need to spend so much wood for these towers and they can be captured very easily even when fully garrisoned. The Spartan hoplite health bonus makes the towers useless. It effectively adds 1 more archer to your army but that's nothing if they have equal numbers off hoplites and skirmishers. Furthermore you never know when an infantry attack will come. Ironically, Ptolemies can't defend against a camel rush unless they also mass produce camels. If you are playing as the Persians against Spartans, then you are destined to loose if your enemies does an early attack (unless you spam enough cav, but then your eco is rubbish and you lose in P3 push :/ ). The most deadly thing about an infantry push on a small map is, you can never tell when the enemy will come. Even if you play on revealed map, they can suddenly charge everything into your base and it takes like 30 seconds for them to arrive.

It doesn't matter how much food I spent in women, because as long as my berries are still there, I keep pumping out women. I start the first farm at minute 2:30 if I don't have extra berries. By this time I should have around 30 women + my starting citizen soldiers. Before that, my food income depended on berries and hunt - same for every civ, including the Han. But now, you suddenly ask for 200 more wood for me to build farms. 200wood at minute 2:30-3:00 is a big price for me. Yes, later on I can save 4 more women to chop trees, but, at 2:30 when I need to build farms, I can't afford the extra 200 wood! You might be able to get away with building 1 farm at a time and wait for the 200 wood to be collected, but that is very inefficient as with any other civ, I would be researching the farming tech by now.

I suppose anywhere between 490 wood and 510 wood is fine, but it is hard to balance other things with food production since food is the very basis of your population. Anything too different from other civs means a lot of whining from lobby players and this civ getting banned. Iber, carth and ptol are already getting banned in games. In A24 all archer civs were banned. We don't want this to happen again, right? You can get civ differentiation from actor models and perhaps a few new buildings that are useless (e.g. Ishtar gate, Laozi gate, Pillar of Ashoka) or weak units that have little military significance (Macedonian champion crossbow) just to keep the single players and city builders happy. If you touch the main economy or basic units of a civ, you will get dozens of angry complaints like the beginning of A24. One idea to get differentiation, however, is to make Han start with sword cav instead of archer cav. We don't have a civ that trains sword cav from the cc yet! @LetswaveaBook @BreakfastBurrito_007 what do you think? P1 sword cav rush?

@wowgetoffyourcellphone @Lion.Kanzen just in case my previous explanation didn't make sense: In order to boom (build population and economy quickly), you need to hit certain checkpoints. THe first checkpoints is, 4 minutes after the game starts you need 1 barrack + 1 CC producing units non-stop. Some players might get this set up at minute 2. In order to supply this rate of unit production, you need to gather at least 12.5 food per second no matter what. With any existing civs in A25, this can be achieved by 25 women farming on 5 fields, so I need to spend a total of 500 wood to build these fields. AT minute 6 you will need 2 barracks and 1 CC pumping infantry non-stop. To supply this you need 20 food per second. That means 7 or 8 fields, with 35 to 40 farmers, and a total of 800 wood spent on farming. I normally get a third barrack before going to town phase, at that point I need 10 to 11 fields to supply my production and the cost of P2, mining techs. By this point I have spent 1000 wood on building fields. note, I did not mention farming techs because that's the same for every civ. My problem with the Han at the moment is, these smaller fields means you will need more fields and hence more wood than the listed values above for other civs, so it makes booming with the Han more difficult in early stages. So the total wood you need to produce 12.5 food per second must be exactly 500 to make the civ balanced with respect to others. It doesn't matter how many fields or women you need, although the less women the better (so more can work on wood)

I really don't want practice range and melee barracks to be separate, because that makes defending against rushes very very difficult. It's too expensive to make 2 buildings and you risk both being captured. If you make just ranged barracks - can defend ranged cav rush, but you can't resist an infantry push from a jav / slinger civ. You also can't defend against spear cav. Then you must allow 4 women per field. The idea is: for every other civ, you invest 20 wood per farmer to produce 0.5 food per second. To supply 1 barrack and 1 CC you need 5 fields, or 12.5 food per second (assuming you have enough wood). This value shouldn't be any different for the Han. So if you want 3 farmers per field, then you need to make the cost 60 wood instead. I would much prefer a farming rate bonus over smaller cheaper fields.

Mercenaries are quite unaffordable in P1 without a strong economy to back it up. Even if you do train a bunch of YueZhi mercs, they will be idle after the fight -> poor efficiency My solution: give crossbow identical stats as slingers, then make YueZhi javelin mercs available in P2. Another idea is NanMan elephant mercs, but that might be far fetched.

@BreakfastBurrito_007 Pikemen are only available in P2. In P1, the only place where you can train archers is from the CC... So if 12 Cavs come to your base at min 5 then you have little to defend with unless you make more archers than women -> you can't afford it because you have spent your wood on paddies already. This is not to mention a camel rush - your enemy can take out your eco then outspam you in camels. GG Right now this civ is unplayable in the lobby, because the Han player either dies of a rush, or sacrifice their boom for archers, or if they are given the chance to boom, Ptolemies or Macedonia or Spartans will wipe them out in seconds. Crossbow +archer + pike + spear is no match against javlin + pikes or slinger + pike, not to mention cavalry. I suppose the only possible play with this civ is doing an archer cav rush, but you are just no match against the Ptolemies whatsoever

I definitely like the idea of small fields so you can cram more around a cc or farmstead - better at anti-rush This reminds me of another weakness of Han: no way to counter jav cav rush or camel rush! Archers can only be produced from the CC in P1 and their cav is archer cav. You will die to javelin cav instantly and you can't outspam a ptol player in camels or inf archers

@BreakfastBurrito_007 Each Han paddy costs 100 wood, but only 3 women can farm on it. The farming rate of paddies is 0.6 compared to 0.5 of wheat fields. In early game, you need 5 fields for most civilisations, that means 25 women gathering, so 12.5 food income per second. Now with Han, you only need 21 women farming for food. But these 21 women will require 7 paddies. So the total amount of wood you spent to set up your food eco is 700 wood compared to 500 wood of other civs. I like the idea of same cost, same stats but different model size and appearance. The Han storehouse and civilian house look too similar as well.

Recently I found the scoring system at the end of the matches quite misleading. For most people, this is of no significance, however, I still felt the need to bring it up as it is quite useless at the moment and can be improved to have some real uses. There are a few issues: 1. Economy score is given too much weight in total score and military does not have enough weight. 2. Economy score purely focuses on resources gathered, which is of little significance if the player just floats resources without using them. 3. Exploration score is useless. Let me show you some replays to illustrate this problem: Seems like atila1752 is the mvp here, huh? he indeed gathered a huge amount of resources, but by the end of the game he was floating 30594 resources, and he sent absolutely nothing to his teammates during the entire game! On the other hand, I spent more than I gathered. How? I loot from the dead enemies for my eco! Now let's see in-game performance: It's quite obvious who here were the best players in each team. Not this red dude. What you can't see behind the summary is, when I asked atila for help, he had 50 infantry chopping trees right next to where I was getting destroyed by 2 enemies, but refused to move them to help me! I had to pause the game to make him come. Yet the score system gives him the mvp... hooohooo also did a great job at defending his flank against 2 players without any assistance, buying me enough time to kill my side and come to him. So my suggestions are, for economy score, take account of how much resource you spent and the RATE of gathering. Furthermore, decrease its value relative to military score.

Temple was replaced by Laozi gate - it was intentional, not a bug. Anyways, I can add a temple if you want. I think quite similar. Although I didn't find it too annoying today. Almost every unit. Some have different skin colour, others have different standing positions or armours...

Today I ran the latest release 26436 and tried the commited version of the Han civilisation, and these are the feedbacks: General impression: completely new playstyle for this civilisation; the previous build orders don't work anymore -> forces you to think about new build orders. Graphics are very nice as always; animations are very smooth and I even saw a few new Icons! What I liked: Beautiful graphics as always Gameplay feels smooth and satisfying with the acceleration feature, especially when controlling archers. What I disliked: Icons and buttons have become smaller and smaller... Huge tree canopies as before, hiding my storehouse placements and making my eco less efficient. (Not a problem, KateGUI will fix it) Changed unit icons - yes they do look prettier now but old player's can't recognise what's what. (not a problem, KateGUI to the rescue) I fear that acceleration feature will cause some complaints amongst lobby players Now let's talk about the Han civ: Differences from other civs: 1. Rice paddies - same price as field, but smaller in size and only 3 women per paddy. However, gathering rate is 0.6 instead of 0.5. Suppose you want to go heavy on cav, other civs might need 12 fields and 60 women on them. For Han, you will only need 50 women + 17 paddies. So paddies are more expensive to set up but great for late game. In early game around 6 paddies are enough, so the wood demand in early game is slightly higher. 2. Ministers - they can speed up gathering -> compensates for greater resource demand. 3. A lot of techs available - good for late game. 4. +10% pop bonus -> amazing late game. 5. No temples, can only train healers from captured temples -> too bad, need to fix. The Laozi gate thing is not good enough! 6. Ranged barracks + melee barracks So the general feeling is they are strong at economy but slightly weaker at infantry. Most old players will have a difficult time getting used to this civ! Suggested changes: 1. Use actor model for rice paddies, but use the same stats as farms. Or, adjust the price accordingly: 70 wood per paddy (since they are smaller anyways). 2. Crossbow infantry have same attack stats as slingers but at greater accuracy; let their cost stay at 50 food, 30 wood and 20 metal. 3. Champion crossbow cavalry do 28 pierce per 1.25 second. 4. Either give all civs ranged barracks + melee barracks or cancel the idea for Han. Right now this nerfs their economy too much, as well as early defense.

On the contrary, Spartan hoplites have +10% health bonus, so they come at 111 health instead of 100 health. They also have Hoplite Tradition tech which makes them rank up as fast as mercenaries -> OP Same price. Skiritai commandos are expensive because they spawn at rank 3, but they are not spearmen / hoplite) There are infantry skirmishers and cavalry skirmishers. It does have less unit types than other civs, but you do get everything you need: champion infantry, 2 strong heroes, spear cav, javelin cav, ranged inf, spear, swords. You even get boltshooters on top of rams for seige.

I have fixed the giant chicken, replaced them with blue peacocks. Please try the newest version V8.0 before you judge

@user1 auxilientmoon lost 1v1 to Cousin and did not resign commands.txtmetadata.json

Maybe change model size will help

@Stockfish there are night maps and day maps and cloudy afternoon maps. Just try one of them. E.g. Greek Acropolis Night, mordor map, alpine mountains, ... Personally I like the lighting on Mainland, Lorraine Plain and Guadalquivir River. Phoenician Levant is the most beautiful but nub at everything else.

So it won't crash if I play on Linux? What about if I build it from source (SVN revision)? Can I get it to be 64 bit?

There are passable points, a lot of them.

TG hosts @juarca @Cesar @king reza the great @Player of 0AD @Emperior @BreakfastBurrito_007 Any thoughts on this? @LetswaveaBook what do you think about these maps in 1v1 situation?

Example: Mainland (temperate) Spawn: I gave 1 because there are pocket players and flank players - some are under more enemy pressure than others. Pocket players have to walk extra distance to reinforce meanwhile flank players may not have enough space to build. Also there are inconvenient ridges that may cause bugs or stuck units. Woodline: very good, very large woodlines, dense enough Other resources: Not lacking anything in particular. No ships Balance: most of the time each team gets enough resources and the layout of the map is balanced enough. Turtle: not easy to turtle because your enemy can attack you from all directions (if you don't scout or build enough palisades in time). Lag / bug: If you don't use KateGUI mod, then the temperate trees have quite elaborate leaves -> might lag. Lorrain plain Spawn: ideal spawn, enough space for everyone, symmetric layout. Occasionally 1 team will get a small stream on their side, cutting off a bit of landmass but it is no big deal. woodline: as you can see the trees are large and dense. Other resources: reasonable amount of berries and hunt; metal and stone are abundant at the back of each team's territory No ships: at medium size, the river is too narrow to fit in docks and ships; it is too easy for the enemy to deny or capture your docks; towers, forts or even ranged units will destroy your ships before the ships can do much (remember there is elevation bonus) Balance: seems quite even Turtle: there is enough hunt for cav rush; there are choke points but also so many river crossings, so it doesn't really encourage turtles. Lag/bug: if you don't use KateGUI mod, you will see that the trees there are A23 trees -> less laggy than A24 or A25 trees. Only cause of lag is huge battles and pathfinding when dancing 100 units at a time. But, large battles can happen anywhere, so not a problem with the map but player strategy.

Some players have become bored of playing just Mainland after spending years on this one map, so I decided to rank other available maps in terms of how suitable they are for 4v4 TGs, hopefully we can bring a few new maps and playstyles to the lobby. I made a public spreadsheet that anyone can edit, so feel free to put your opinions down! This is a screenshot of my table as it is now, containing a few of my favourite maps: The scoring system is as follows: 2 = Absolutely perfect in this aspect 1 = Very good but not absolutely ideal 0 = meh -1 = bad, but we can get around it somehow -2 = Unplayable, eliminates this map from the list Explanation of each criteria: Spawn: Is there enough space to build? Are all players equidistant from their enemies or are some players in dangerous spots meanwhile others are very safe? Are there many obstructions? Is there hostile gaia? CAN IBER WALLS GENERATE CORRECTLY? Woodline: high score for large and dense woodlines that you can gather efficiently from; 1 for small but dense woodline or large but loose; 0 for small and loose but enough wood within territory to go P2; -1 for single trees or small patches or needing to extend to get trees and 0 for not enough wood for even P2. Other resources: hunt, berries, metal, stone. Is the map severely missing stone or metal? Are the berries or hunts near the cc? No ships: 2 for not needing ships at all, 0 means you can reach the enemy without a ship but only through chokepoints or difficult paths; -1 means you have to use ship to transport but most fights happen on land (british channel); -2 is all naval with only small islands (e.g islands). Balance - does 1 team get more of something than the others? Are all players getting roughly the same access to resources or are some people being left out? Turtle - does it encourage turtling strategy at choke points or are you given the opportunity to rush or push early? Lag / bug - is there any significant code bugs with the map? Does it cause a lot of lag? All of the conditions are assumed to be 4v4 on medium sized maps, temperate biome. So the next time you host a game, you know what other maps you can play apart from Mainland.

before the game crashed, Havran had an OOS error and caused him to disconnect from my game. When he rejoined, it became very laggy. crashlog.txtcrashlog.dmp userreport_hwdetect.txtoos_dump.txtoos_dump.datmainlog.htmlsystem_info.txt The map was Guadalquivir River at medium size.

This happened during an intense game. My problem is, I have 16GB of ram, but only 50% of that is being used. So why did it crash? Another thing I observed was, the game audio randomly disappeared halfway through the game, causing me to perform badly and let my teammate die as I couldn't hear his pings

Show me a picture please, I think I might know what you are talking about but an example would be nice.