Ayakashi

From wolflance's other thread on reconstructed Han Dynasty clothing: Basically, thinner plates held together with string and lacquered black.

Better! One last little thing: Do you mind horizontally flipping the flag on the right so that it matches the left? Reason being that it's the Chinese word for Han thus shouldn't be mirrored the way it is.

Wow that was quick Just rotate the flags 180 degrees so they're not upside down, maybe raise the stone platform up a wee bit so that there are stairs leading up the entrance (personal suggestion, up to you if you want to do that), and you're good to go

Indeed! Due to the 4 way symmetry you can just do 1/4 and mirror it!

Actually you should call the Government Center Imperial City. I just remembered the proper name for these kind of places: Imperial City! I strongly suggest Mingtang Piyong because no matter how I imagine it, trying to fit it into the game will be a nightmare. If you make the scale on par with everything else it will be too big, if you scale it down it will look like a doll house. Keep in mind that it's a massive sprawling palace complex many square kilometers in size and also that need to stick to historical accuracy where possible, thus I think just modeling the Mingtang Piyong and calling it the Weiyang Palace is a bad idea. I think if you want to incorporate the Weiyang Palace into the game the best way to do it is to make some props/none player buildable buildings such as halls, walls, gates and the likes, and then assemble it in the map editor and make a map out of it (Imagine a capture Weiyang Palace scenario, where players fight to take control of various palace buildings, that'd be quite fun).

The Weiyang Palace is massive, several times bigger than the Ming Forbidden City, making it the wonder will have to scale it down in a way that won't do it justice. I would suggest instead the Mingtang Piyong (明堂辟雍) which is this big altar in Chang'an that I assume serves a similar purpose to the Ming Temple of Heaven. I need to read more into it. There are some decent pictures of them on the internet such as these: I don't think I need to do concept art for the Wonder if you decide to have the Mingtang Piyong. I think the pictures above are pretty good and there are more good quality blueprints online if you copy & paste the Chinese text into Google. Waiting for me to draw a concept art will probably be a waste of time. Though I am currently drawing some new concepts for the livestock pen and market to bring them up to par with the rest of the buildings. No promises on when I'll finish them though. Coming back to the Government Center I don't know why but that name just don't quite sit right with me. I personally prefer Palace Complex simply because ancient Chinese capitals always have one as their bureaucratic hub and it just make more sense to me even with the function you intended, and to have it be a prerequisite for champion units simply again: since they're Palace Guards, it just makes sense. But that's just a personal suggestion and the decisions aren't mine to make.

Thanks dude! The damage of the Cultural Revolution to primary sources and historical artifacts is just a commonly known fact, no need to be ashamed to talk about it. As for the Government Center it's certainly a very interesting mechanic you are going for. Obviously I've been gone for a while and is now out of touch with the development. I'd say great job so far and keep doing what you are doing! I'll leave the historical accuracy feedback to Wolflance

I've had a hard time trying to find good information on Han Dynasty Palace Guards to be frank. Even from Chinese sites information is sparse compared to those from the Tang Dynasty and later. The Yu Lin are probably the most well known from the Western (Early) Han. I've not come across any sources that discuss the exact weapons they use at great detail but based of most depictions and general knowledge that Chinese Palace Armies are trained to be proficient at all the main weapons: especially bows, spears and lances, you can do quite a lot with them in 0AD. If weapons switching is possible with the game's engine, the best way I'd say to have them is to have a cavalry and infantry version and both can switch between bow and spear. If that's not possible just have them as either one or the other depending on gameplay and balance needs. Another thing you can maybe possibly do is to rename the Government Center to Palace, and have it be a prerequisite to unlock these champion units, or have champion units and heroes be trained there only, to reflect the notion of them being Palace Guards. EDIT: wowgetoffyourcellphone & wolflance: It seems you guys have found better sources than I have. Do you mind sharing them with me? I'd like to use them for reference/art purposes.

To be frank I think it's not a bad idea to simply use the same fields as other factions for the time being until a solution is found. Wheat and millet were commonly farmed in ancient China, especially in the north where it's too cold and dry for rice. The current fields to not look very pleasing to the eye unfortunately.

If it's gonna be called Silk Road wouldn't that make it an ROTE map?

Not Chinese only. But they were unique in using triple bow crossbows

A tower with that many weapons might be too OP. I can imagine a player just spamming these around the base without too much thought and really give the opponent a needlessly hard time. Specialized towers with individual strengths and weaknesses will allow for more strategic depth from both sides and make turtling more fun! It will also give something unique and appealing for the faction (might even make up for the weak units). Plus, IMO taking shortcuts shouldn't sacrifice for making the mod fun and balanced. So I'd have it like this: - regular tower: we all knows how it works, but bomb upgrade can be applied to it (low-mid AOE damage) - chunagzi nu crossbow tower: one shot kills most units, strong vs siege units, slow reload, has a minimum rage radius so it's vulnerable to massed melee unit/ram rush - flamethrower tower: strong splash damage or in a line, short ranged, kills units almost instantly, good vs rush tactics, outranged by most siege units I'm not sure whether if it's better to have them as 3 separate buildings or as individually converted wall towers (with graphic change & will automatically eject garrisoned units if applied).

The Song did suffer many humiliating losses but I wouldn't exactly say they got roflstomped. After all they did last longer against the Mongols than everyone else! Too bad they were so stupidly paranoid about military coups and kept executing their best generals. Btw, What would you think about maybe having specialized, non-garrisonable chuangzi nu crossbow and flamethrower towers to help with turtling gameplay?

Just read your update. As I've mentioned in the previous reply: if it was me, considering the split of part 2 and that we're not doing the branching into specialized sub-factions late game anymore, I would've split the Chinese (maybe sinicized factions is a better term) into the Jin, Xi Xia, and Song, as 3 separate factions/sub-factions, just like the Greeks in the vanilla game. I think a consensus among the CoM on this is needed 'cause I don't know if they would want 3 Chinese style factions, although IMO it shouldn't be much more work than the current proposal since buildings and most basic units will likely be shared. But it's probably too early for that right now. I reckon you've done great work on this update, but the seemingly lack of any strong units other than maybe the Jin ones from Reform 1 I find a bit concerning. I know this is meant to reflect the troubled state China was facing at the time especially their army, but I can't help but feel this amount of nerfing almost unintentionally evokes the stereotype of the suicidal human wave that is too often applied to historical Chinese armies, and which we should do well to avoid. Winning purely through sheer numbers won't work IMO, considering that you need to train loads of military laborers just to build and maintain a strong defense. This is going to cost population points and will result in a smaller army than the other faction made of weaker units. IMO this is either begging to get roflstomped, or if the player is a good turtle will result in 2 hour stalemates. A massive population bonus might help but I doubt it's applicable because of the adjustable pop cap. Therefore, I think you should include at least one or two of decently strong "true" champion units such as re-adding the Beiwei. Otherwise a great update to the proposal overall! Must've been a huge effort starting all over again and it easily puts mine to shame!

The Xi Xia are awesome indeed! But as I said the primary reason I'd go for the Jin is because they conquered Northern Song Territory, thus makes the most sense as a reform tech. However, I think a way we can get them both represented is instead of reform tech we split 'China' into sub factions in the same way the Greeks are in the vanilla game. So we can have Song, Jin and western Xia, all sharing generic assets like architecture and basic units, but also having distinctive special units and wonders. That will mean more work though, so I don't know how the CoM will react!