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Lion.Kanzen

Modern vs Older RTS Discuss

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Are the genre becoming without ideas or...?

Related topic.

Base building and diversity is the key?

https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/up-to-date-rts-economy-and-base-build-for-aoe4-a-possible-task/42527/4

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I personally think a large problem with current RTS's is a lack of freedom for the players.

Star raft is successful for me because I can build my base anywhere anyway and have tons of units. Grey goose tried to put gimicks on systems, and while homeworks did the same with only one main ship, you had massive amounts of ships and formations to run them in.

Command and conquerd 3, generals, and red alert 3 were the last few good ones in the series, but my big highlights were three things: no population cap, freeform base building, and easy balance.

Firstly, the population cap. You had no limit to the number of sdiers you could field. Want 200 squads of rifleman? Go ahead of your comp can handle it. Deciding you need 50 mammoths to take down your opponents defenses? Get those factories rolling.

Base building was also a key factor. Bases in these three games were as simple as click the location, the angle, and build in the allotted area if nothing's in the way. Games out too many gimicks on it now, like the wall system in grey goo. The only other limits are power. Generals took this further by making it so there was no area limited by your buildings: you could send a worker right at start to the enemy base and build right next to it should you like.

Finally, the balance. I'll use generals cause I know their balance the best as my example. In the game, the three factions (USA, China, and GLA) have obvious but fair tradeoffs. The USA has some of the strongest units and buildings, but they require power and more money, resources. China has a medium balance of units, but relies on horde tactics for buffs with propoganda towers. The global liberAtion army relies on cheap, easy to pump out units, and requires no power source

 

Edited by Lion.Kanzen
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0 A.D is making this mistake?

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RTS games are quite big,
so for example you have a game and its core is jumping. Problem is, you can add tons of feutures there. But if jumping doesn’t work, the game is considered to be bad, no matter what you did. I had dozens of games, where my character wasn’t able to jump high enough to pass an obstacle.

That’s where I think RTS do have a similar problem. There is a lot made around it, but at the core those games were not fun. Yes, you can place here and there a house and hire from time to time units, but a proper designed RTS does make it fun to do. A lot of RTS seem to simply made it, without to think what for they did add it.

I mean Empire Apart was also a team working on similar game, but despite all what was told to them, their game never got better, they did just add stuff and factions, but did not make it better to play. Why should it be here any different ? The ability to design fun to play base build seems lost.

 

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2 minutes ago, ethanray94 said:

I enjoy them all AOE2 however is my favorite. i'm really excited about 4, I just hope it's not ruined and sticks to its roots.

AoE  2 have better gameplay but... Medieval ers isn't funny for me.

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On 7/29/2019 at 8:33 AM, ethanray94 said:

I enjoy them all AOE2 however is my favorite. i'm really excited about 4, I just hope it's not ruined and sticks to its roots.

The best selling RTS. You can't compete with this. I can offer a link to their forums or you haven't  a phone?

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/sc2/

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Blizzard changed the game in 1998 with StarCraft, easily the most popular and profitable RTS of all time. The genre peaked then, in the late 1990s, where numerous franchises sold millions of copies. The boom of PC gaming had players looking for deeper, replayable experiences, and the rise of networking let them challenge each other from hundreds of miles away. RTS games were perfect for this new audience, and the games came hot and heavy for several years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_games

Edited by Lion.Kanzen

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Too much complexity

It’s kind of a given that as game genres mature, they tend to increase in complexity. The earliest real-time strategy games had a limited number of units, which were equal on both sides. As new games came out, they pushed the envelope so players needed to understand the strengths and weaknesses of more and more actors, as well as monitor an increasing number of resources and other factors.

That complexity can be an obstacle in other genres, but the often punishing nature of RTS games makes it even more frustrating. Executing advanced strategies at a breakneck pace is taxing for professional players, and the learning curve isn’t easy. Unlike fighting games, which introduced comeback mechanics to give losing players a way to rebound, RTS matches often end up with the winner steamrolling the loser.

A player on a Reddit thread sums it up exceptionally well:

 

“It’s just too much depth, complexity and content for most people to be willing to play and master. You can play a ton of other games out there and have an idea of what to do and what’s going on, but that is not the case with RTS games, especially Starcraft. As a new player, you have no idea what to do. You just get more money, make more workers, but then what units should you make? What units are best in that matchup? When should you expand? Etc. It takes many, many games and many, many losses to learn basic patterns and build orders. Basically…It’s a lot of work. And a lot of the losses people get are from things they never saw coming.”

That’s not the kind of gameplay that’s going to build a strong casual base, and let’s be clear: the majority of gamers aren’t pro e-sports players. They’re just looking to have fun. I read a recent statistic from one RTS developer who said that 80% of his game’s buyers never touch the multiplayer component at all. Considering that’s the main feature that ensures longevity in the genre, that statistic is painful.

https://www.geek.com/news/what-happened-to-the-real-time-strategy-genre-1649869/

Edited by Lion.Kanzen
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https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/age-of-empires-4-vs-metagaming-the-true-enemy-of-pvp-games/53856

 

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If its done bad, people play game always in same steps, which leads to simply who can faster click the same steps, and finally make the game extremely boring and repetitive.

Here some common encounters.
-exploit map’s style of play.

Age of Empires had so far a very good way to deal here, each map was randomly generated.
This means, don’t stuck by 1 map, they play all over again same way.

-exploit faction weaknesses
a very common mistake I see is, developers make factions differently, to a point where they completely break strategical decisions. Like for example a faction doesn’t have good ways to counter Air units, so enemy does only buy air units to fight that faction.

-exploit early game weaknesses
a common problem by RTS is rush play, because there are no working measurements to stop enemies early attacks.

Problem is, investigating it all needs time and skill. And time is money, something that is rare.

https://liquipedia.net/starcraft/Metagame

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Those things stated might relate to 1v1, especially about Rushing and Exploiting Weaknesses. If the Rush is too strong and / or the Weakness is too prominent, then the only problem is balance.

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