Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
wowgetoffyourcellphone

Civ: Germans (Suebians and Goths)

Recommended Posts

Reserved for German civ layout for Delenda Est. I've already committed some placeholder Suebian and Goth assets to the DE git repository. Using Gaul assets as placeholder for now.

https://github.com/JustusAvramenko/delenda_est/commit/74653b71376ba38593f675e4051586769292b59b

https://github.com/JustusAvramenko/delenda_est

screenshot0118.thumb.jpg.2286adb396b5835fa526911d1afc6085.jpg

Need halp from our resident historians, artists, and reference gatherers.

 

Units

Since the Suebi were a tribal confederation, units will have tribal designations, for example: Marcomanni Spearman, Quadi Light Cavalry, etc. 

Goths will represent the "later" Germans, with round shields, more helmets, more chain mail, greater cavalry.

Suebian units look like "early" Germans, with hexagonal shields, fewer helmets, less chain mail, greater reliance on infantry.

Basic units - Bare chested. Pants. Shield. Weapon. No helmet.

Advanced units - Shirt. Pants. Shield. Weapon. No helmet.

Elite units - Shirt. Pants. Cape. Shield. Weapon. Simple Germanic helmet. 

Champions and Heroes -  Heavy body armor.

Suebian Heroes: AriovistusArminius, and ?

  • Arminius can be trained from the Mercenary Camps on the map, along with Cherusci pikemen.

Gothic Heroes: Alaric ITheodoric I, and Theoderic the Great

 

Buildings

All wooden, less health than "standard" civs. "Walls" are a wooden stockade, halfway in strength between palisades and stone walls. "Fortress" is wooden.

Building "shapes" should roughly follow Empires Ascendant standard, but with a Germanic veneer or aesthetic. There can be some unique exceptions for visual variety however. Maybe houses are longer than they are wide with a rectangular footprint, in contrast to other civs whose houses generally fit a square footprint.

 

Gameplay

Suebians still use standard territorial gameplay, but have an ox cart dropsite. Later Goths will have more of a nomadic gameplay (like Huns or Scythians) with no territory. It would be interesting if Hyrule:Conquest's hero selection UI could be used to "split" the Goths into Visigoths and Ostrogoths.

 

Art Needed

Each one needs its own civ emblem. Unit head models with the "Suebian Knot" and beards for the Suebian units. New unit body and shield textures. Some new helmet models. New building art set.

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone
  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was starting to helping you with Scythian banners and some icons...

can be nice the idea as said what kind of  bonus for them, description you have.

is related with Cimbrii faction (in your mod) or you are seeing as Suebii Confederation of Tribes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me fetch some of the old references from the art repository, not the art_source one, of which you have access I believe. I guess @Genava55 and @Germanic_celt79 could be of assistance. Maybe @Juli51 wants to do some concept art :) @Andrettin

 

EDIT: Here you go. 

 

Props

Spoiler

germanicshields.jpgGermanic_shields.jpg

Units

Spoiler

Guerreros germanos siglo IV dC.jpggerm4.jpgGerman1.jpggermlong.gifgermofficer.jpggermsword.jpggermshort.gifgermbroad.gifGerman2.jpggermgenaric.jpg

Buildings

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

germanicbuildings.jpggermlumbercamp.jpggermmine.bmpgermfarmstead.jpggermhouse.jpggermanicsketch1.gifgermanicsketch2.gifgermanicsketch3.gifgermanicsketch4.gif

 

germansmith.jpggermanicsketch5.gifgermantown.jpg

 

 

Edit: relevant threads

 

Voices 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The time frame involved is basically from Ariovistus (58 BC) to Hermeric (441 AD) ?  Focusing on the Suebian tribes ?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

The time frame involved is basically from Ariovistus (58 BC) to Hermeric (441 AD) ?  Focusing on the Suebian tribes ?

yes must be focused in some era of their development

 

Quote

The Germanic tribes seem to have originated in a homeland in southern Scandinavia (Sweden and Norway, with the Jutland area of northern Denmark, along with a very narrow strip of Baltic coastline). They had been settled here for over two thousand years following theIndo-European migrations. The Germanic ethnic group began as a division of the western edge of late proto-Indo-European dialects around 3300 BC, splitting away from a general westwards migration to head towards the southern coastline of the Baltic Sea. By the time the Germanic tribes were becoming key players in the politics of Western Europe in the last two centuries BC, the previously dominant Celtswere on the verge of being conquered and dominated by Rome. They had already been pushed out of northern and central Europe by a mass of Germanic tribes which were steadily carving out a new homeland.

The Suevi were a confederation of Germanic peoples (at least, mostly Germanic) which came into existence by the first century AD, and perhaps earlier. However, the name seems to have had origins as that of an individual tribe before that time. Spelled Suevi or Suebi by various authors, the core tribe migrated southwards from the southern Baltic coast in concert with many other Germanic tribes. In fact, the Romans knew the sea as Mare Suebicum, so familiar were they with the Suebi presence there. In the first century BC the tribe arrived on the east bank of the Rhine, with the River Main on their southern flank. Settling here, they were neighboured to the north by the Cherusci, and their presence survives in the historic name of the region, Swabia.

Spoiler

 

click on the map for very large size.

Map of Barbarian Europe 52 BC

Quote

Controversy exists as to whether particular tribes were German or Gaulish (Celtic), and the Suevi encompassed people who may straddle both definitions. The subject is discussed in greater detail in the accompanying feature. Their name comes from the proto-Germanic word 'sweboz', for 'one's own' people, or fellow countrymen. Certainly under Ariovistus, the Suevi had a foot in both camps. They made a foray across the Rhine as the leaders of a small confederation of Germanic tribes. There they became involved in Gaulish and Roman politics, before being forced back into the area that was becoming known as Germania. Following this, they drifted into modern lower central Germany, taking elements of their confederation with them and soon adding new tribes to it.

By the end of the first century AD they were at the head of a confederation that numbered at least seventeen tribes both major and minor, at least one of which, the Lugii, was a confederation in its own right. The rest included the tribes of the Alemanni and Hermunduri (to the north-east), the Langobards (but perhaps only western elements of their number), the Marcomanni (to the west, beyond the Hermunduri), the Quadi and Semnones (to the north-east of the Hermunduri), and the Warini. The term 'Suevi' seems to have been used almost casually to describe a wide range of German peoples. The Heruli may also have been involved and the Angles in the Cimbric Peninsula certainly were, along with elements to their immediate south who, by the beginning of the fifth century, were under the rule of an Anglian prince named Witta, of Wehta's Folk.

The Suevi confederation remained relatively quiet after the first century AD. The disruption caused by the Hunnic invasion further east forced the main body of Suevi to migrate across the Rhine and into Spain, where they formed a kingdom in the hostile mountains of Galicia. Their territory also extended down in a broad swathe into much of modern Portugal, and it proved to be fairly stable.

(Information by Peter Kessler, with additional information by Edward Dawson, from The Oxford History of England: Roman Britain, Peter Salway, from Complete Works of Tacitus, Alfred John Church, William Jackson Brodribb, & Lisa Cerrato, from The Barbarians: Warriors & Wars of the Dark Ages, Tim Newark (Blandford Press, 1985), from Geography, Ptolemy, and from External Links: The Works of Julius Caesar: Gallic Wars, and Geography, Strabo (H C Hamilton & W Falconer, London, 1903, Perseus Online Edition).)

we can take a base large tribes like Semnones?

Quote

The Semnones are described by Tacitus as "the oldest and noblest of the Suebi", and, like the Suebi described by Caesar, they have 100 cantons. Tacitus says that "the vastness of their community makes them regard themselves as the head of the Suevic race".[33] According to Ptolemy the "Suevi Semnones" live upon the Elbe and stretch as far east as a river apparently named after them, the Suevus, probably the Oder. South of them he places the Silingi, and then, again upon the Elbe, the Calucones. To the southeast further up the upper Elbe he places not the Hermunduri mentioned by other authors (who had possibly moved westwards and become Ptolemy's "Teuriochaemai", and the later Thuringii), but the Baenochaemae (whose name appears to be somehow related to the modern name Bohemia, and somehow derived from the older placename mentioned by Strabo and Tacitus as the capital of King Marobodus after he settled his Marcomanni in the Hercynian forest). A monument confirms that the Juthungi, who fought the Romans in the 3rd century, and were associated with the Alamanni, were Semnones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semnones

 

....

Quote

[...]After the death of Drusus, the Cherusci annihilated three legions at the Battle of Teutoburg Forest and thereafter "... the empire ... was checked on the banks of the Rhine." While elements of the Suevi may have been involved, this was an alliance mainly made up of non-Suebic tribes from northwestern Germany, the Cherusci, Marsi, Chatti, Bructeri, Chauci, and Sicambri. The kingdom of the Marcomanni and their allies stayed out of the conflict and when Maroboduus was sent the head of the defeated Roman leader Varus, he sent it on to Rome for burial. Within his own alliance were various Suebic peoples, Hermunduri, Quadi, Semnones, Lugii, Zumi, Butones, Mugilones, Sibini and Langobards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suebi

Edited by Lion.Kanzen
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Lombards: The Ancient Longobards - Neil Christie

The Lombards, also known as the Longobards, were a Germanic tribe whose fabled origins lay in the barbarian realm of Scandinavia. After centuries of obscurity during the long period of Roman domination in Europe, the Lombards began a concerted migration south-eastwards, coming to prominence immediately after the fall of Rome.

Pushing across the Danube to occupy Hungary, the tribe emerged as a powerful protagonist in the former heartland of the Empire in the early sixth century AD. The Lombards subsequently invaded Italy in AD 568-569, where they successfully countered the Byzantines and established a kingdom based on the fertile north Italian plains. This endured for more than two centuries before its conquest by Charlemagne, and even after this defeat, a Lombard state continued to exist in southern Italy until the eleventh century.

In this book, the author combines many sources, archaeological and historical, to offer a fresh and vividly detailed picture of Lombard society - its people, settlements, material and spiritual culture - and its evolution from martial 'barbarian' tribe to complex urbanized state.  

 

The Alamanni and Rome 213-496 - John F. Drinkwater

The Alamanni and Rome focuses upon the end of the Roman Empire. From the third century AD, barbarians attacked and then overran the west. Some--Goths, Franks, Saxons--are well known, others less so. The latter include the Alamanni, despite the fact that their name is found in the French (''Allemagne'') and Spanish (''Alemania'') for ''Germany.'' This pioneering study, the first in English, uses new historical and archaeological findings to reconstruct the origins of the Alamanni, their settlements, their politics, and their society, and to establish the nature of their relationship with Rome. John Drinkwater discovers the cause of their modern elusiveness in their high level of dependence on the Empire. Far from being dangerous invaders, they were often the prey of emperors intent on acquiring military reputations. When much of the western Empire fell to the Franks, so did the Alamanni, without ever having produced their own ''successor kingdom.''  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/30/2019 at 3:06 PM, Genava55 said:

The time frame involved is basically from Ariovistus (58 BC) to Hermeric (441 AD) ?  Focusing on the Suebian tribes ?

That is a large time frame. Would unit types and equipment have changed greatly in the intervening years? What about architecture? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

That is a large time frame. Would unit types and equipment have changed greatly in the intervening years?

Yes it changed, the Suebians during 1st century BC and 2st century AD are mostly using hexagonal shields and have little body protection. During the 3rd century AD, all the Germans started to use rounds shields and we find some helmets and chainmail. There are also the development of the angon and of the spatha. 

Clearly, before the Marcomannic wars it is difficult to gather enough information to build a complete faction.  

12 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

What about architecture? 

Most of the archeological  information on the Suebians comes from the later period. But the general basis of the houses didn't have change. The only thing is that there is more evidence for fortifications in the later period.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Yes it changed, the Suebians during 1st century BC and 2st century AD are mostly using hexagonal shields and have little body protection. During the 3rd century AD, all the Germans started to use rounds shields and we find some helmets and chainmail. There are also the development of the angon and of the spatha. 

For the Suebians, I'm thinking a more "early" interpretation for their look, with the hexagonal shields and low instance of armor. If I were to add the Goths, they'd be a later interpretation.

 

34 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Most of the archeological  information on the Suebians comes from the later period. But the general basis of the houses didn't have change. The only thing is that there is more evidence for fortifications in the later period.

Right, a wooden longhouse is a wooden longhouse. For gameplay purposes, I think some kind of fortification would be necessary. Probably wooden. Any walls would be a wooden stockade, halfway in strength between palisades and stone walls. 

Thematically, I'd go for a more "settled" interpretation for their gameplay, with territories, etc. While the later Goths would have some "nomadic civ" elements, like ox cart dropsites, etc. 

 

Heroes could be Ariovistas, Arminius, and? 

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

For the Suebians, I'm thinking a more "early" interpretation for their look, with the hexagonal shields and low instance of armor. If I were to add the Goths, they'd be a later interpretation.

 

Right, a wooden longhouse is a wooden longhouse. For gameplay purposes, I think some kind of fortification would be necessary. Probably wooden. Any walls would be a wooden stockade, halfway in strength between palisades and stone walls. 

Thematically, I'd go for a more "settled" interpretation for their gameplay, with territories, etc. While the later Goths would have some "nomadic civ" elements. 

and use some Millenium norse buildings? (some)  

yes they are more settled than Cimbrii.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would an artist be willing to make some Germanic head models? Mainly, we're talking about ponytails+beards, Suebian knots+beards, and maybe 3 female head variants. References to follow.

Any helmets will come later.

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Germanic head references, for any artist who is willing. I think these models can just be edits of the existing models (ideally), and can be added to the core game probably.

Ponytails

The game has a ponytail male head model and beareded head models, but not together. Germans definitely would benefit from bearded head models + maybe a couple of ponytail variations (props?).

germanicghostwarriorsfeat2.jpg

Above: 2 variations. Ponytail on back of head and ponytail closer to crown.

 

germ4.jpg

Above: Some ponytail variants at the top of the head. Short.

 

Suebian Knot

This would be specific to the Suebi faction units. This is a knot of hair off to the side (right side?) of the head. Maybe 2 variants, one lower and one higher.

3448e2f3b9eb0b91adb0f098aa6cdc86.jpgimages?q=tbn:ANd9GcQm30ouTvSuofRYP0eOogG324d979480d42445b75fd415a2ce17da.jpgbog-body-Osterby-Man.jpg

 

Braided Female Hair models

It would be cool to have unique head models for the Germanic women. Perhaps 3 or 4 variants.

55729571_1163919517110119_14376814317046sddefault.jpg?v=5b3f0deb

Above: Says "Vikings" but I think would be apropos for Germanic women as well (Nordic and Germanic peoples are related)

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

and use some Millenium norse buildings? (some)  

 

I looked at Millennium AD the other night to check out the buildings again. There are things I like about the Anglo-Saxon, Norse, and Carolingian building sets, but the textures are all incompatible. The Civic Centers need work the most (not quite up to snuff compared to core game models). I think using them as placeholder art would work though.

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Stan` said:

What about the references I posted above. Anything you like there ? :)

Some of the stuff looks good, but I can't vouch for the realism.

 

This guy sketched some stuff.

On 3/22/2014 at 10:34 AM, Le Druide Gaulois said:

I just made some concepts. To the left there are 2 different sets for houses, a farmstead and a scout tower, and to the right different models for a civic centre.

post-16101-0-11988300-1395498884_thumb.j

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I am not sure. For the faction symbol, it'll probably be white, but for shields and stuff, maybe player color.

I mean the emblem.

Edited by Lion.Kanzen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

White on a wooden or leather shield.

I made the anglo-saxon shield. only need replace the symbol and the hue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...