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wackyserious

===[TASK]=== Celtic Unit Textures

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@Genava55 Opinion on the neckline of the sleeveless tunic of the guy on the right (1st image)?

Illustrations for the Exposition,  Les Sénons - Musées de Troyes

Quote

 

Senons Gaul Warriors by Jose Daniel Cabrera Peña at ArtStation

 

jose-daniel-cabrera-pena-2-guys-iii-ac-b

jose-daniel-cabrera-pena-1-guys-i-celte-

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An image depicting a Gallic banquet.

Illustrated by ª RU-MOR

banquet-gaulois.jpg

 

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3 hours ago, wackyserious said:

Lightened the tunic to somewhat associate them with divinity.

Superbe like this. Much better. I like it. The white is a sacrous color for the druids in Irish mythology, thus it is justifiable. 

2 hours ago, wackyserious said:

Opinion on the neckline of the sleeveless tunic of the guy on the right (1st image)?

I have the book from this expo. I will check tomorrow (4 am there and too much wine in my blood for the moment). 

I will see for an item tomorrow as well balduin. 

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@wackyserious the druid in this picture has a sickle.

The association between sickle and druids is mentioned the book the Natural History (historia naturalis) written by Pliny the Elder. An interpretation and more can be found here: http://jdstanley.com/blog/sickle-traditional-druid-tools-series/

I don't know what to think of it. In general, we don't know much about druids. Even Pliny the Elder seemed to have used [Posidonius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posidonius) text [1].

@Genava55 I do not know what your opinion is regarding the druid topic?

[1]: Das geheimnisvolle Leben der Druiden  https://www.welt.de/kultur/article4118043/Das-geheimnisvolle-Leben-der-Druiden.html

 

1 hour ago, wackyserious said:

My inspiration for the Druid in dress.

image.png

 

Edited by balduin
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10 hours ago, balduin said:

The association between sickle and druids is mentioned the book the Natural History (historia naturalis) written by Pliny the Elder. An interpretation and more can be found here: http://jdstanley.com/blog/sickle-traditional-druid-tools-series/ 

I don't know what to think of it. In general, we don't know much about druids. Even Pliny the Elder seemed to have used [Posidonius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posidonius) text [1].

The account from Pliny is legit and it could be a real tradition, though I won't believe easily his statement about human sacrifice since the Romans have a true problem to talk about it, often exaggerating the reality. The sickle is definitely something plausible but I don't think it is really the symbol of the Druids. It seems more to be a sacred tool used at specific events.

Druids have different roles, they are also healers and chirurgeons/surgeons, guardian of laws and memory and philosophers. Therefore I suggest that the sickle could be a part of their tools but probably medical tools and divinatory tools as well. Archeologically, the subject is very very complicated but there are some findings of medical tools and even a bone helicoidal pendulum. The difficulty comes from the fact there are weapons in these burials sometimes. 

image.png.6de52ae2061232e1a9fa6bfdc8dcdbd1.png

image.png.b8f78d181fee5f7616c7a904a6f255e3.png

image.png.afb38f3f600b60f86eaa453d4629f080.png

There is also actually something interesting in Britain with several divinatory rods in copper and iron found:

image.png.fe635b52c491ec2696c50ffc79699b9a.pngimage.png.6165b9c8b471766a19cf91a966cad58c.png

About the staff, I have no idea. Nothing really prove or contradict it. Maybe a golden gilded staff is a possibility. We know there was a golden gilded tree cult in Manching, however it is not a staff nor something easier to carry. I just say that technologically, the Celts know how to gild a staff in gold. 

10 hours ago, balduin said:

@Genava55 I do not know what your opinion is regarding the druid topic?

Seriously, it is one of the most complicated subject. I have read only Christian-Joseph Guyonvarc'h, Jean-Louis Brunaux and Raimund Karl on this matter and honestly... they are contradicting each others. For example Guyonvarc'h relies mostly on Irish literature whereas Brunaux avoid to use Irish literature. It is very difficult for me to take a position on this subject, there are some concordance but this is still a black box even for experts.

Edited by Genava55
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12 hours ago, wackyserious said:

My inspiration for the Druid in dress.

A point about this illustration. It is mostly based on reenactors outfits and it is mixing two or three things from different periods. Moreover, the sword is bullsh*t. For the women it could be a good enough inspiration, but for the warrior I would avoid it. The druid is legit, it is a quite simple representation. The artist didn't take any risk to represent the druid, it is halfway in the cliché and in a neutral interpretation.

14 hours ago, wackyserious said:

Opinion on the neckline of the sleeveless tunic of the guy on the right (1st image)?

He probably took his inspiration from coins, there are sleeveless references:

image.png.6dd4a0ff389613a8f82cc8ed362cac68.png.

Large neckline reference:

image.png.e94c3c5f3262e355295baa87b1924cf1.png

But I don't see anything to support the square shape of the neckline.

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How about some epic moustaches as a separate prop for the nobles? To emphasize the epic Celtic moustache (without beard). Even with some of those epic braids hanging from the side of their heads, considering how much detail the helmets have now?

Spoiler

5832.thumb.jpg.9acd17d86972c5da5a8567a025e7b4a7.jpgBrennus.jpg.851c81ff400ba2ff3f57c92859126ade.jpgVercingetorix001.jpg.69e686009e9d74357468806701e7a8cb.jpgsam_1656__sized.thumb.jpg.c0ec98ddfd34d4286d2964ee4be436a9.jpgcae19942695a0caa17dcf169a6cb18e9.jpg.bf0e9435a693158d63f8602a186dea1c.jpg1537475279856.png.5701822975691a8d5ca65e21aa7ad173.png

93.91099_01.thumb.JPG.d1549d915320dac3450db112566ad46a.JPGv1.bjs5NDM2MDg7ajsxNzkyMDsxMjAwOzE0MDA7Nzg3.thumb.jpeg.a16618fe2d4e1a8888cfca1cac329a69.jpeg

ok, those might not all be 100% historically accurate, but just to give you an idea of what I mean :P 

 

Edited by Sundiata
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1 minute ago, Sundiata said:

How about some epic moustaches as a separate prop for the nobles? To emphasize the epic Celtic moustache (without beard). Even with some of those epic braids hanging from the side of their heads, considering how much detail the helmets have now? 

  Reveal hidden contents

5832.thumb.jpg.9acd17d86972c5da5a8567a025e7b4a7.jpgBrennus.jpg.851c81ff400ba2ff3f57c92859126ade.jpgVercingetorix001.jpg.69e686009e9d74357468806701e7a8cb.jpgsam_1656__sized.thumb.jpg.c0ec98ddfd34d4286d2964ee4be436a9.jpgcae19942695a0caa17dcf169a6cb18e9.jpg.bf0e9435a693158d63f8602a186dea1c.jpg1537475279856.png.5701822975691a8d5ca65e21aa7ad173.png

93.91099_01.thumb.JPG.d1549d915320dac3450db112566ad46a.JPGv1.bjs5NDM2MDg7ajsxNzkyMDsxMjAwOzE0MDA7Nzg3.thumb.jpeg.a16618fe2d4e1a8888cfca1cac329a69.jpeg

 

Diodurus says only the nobles wears the moustach, but what is a noble in his mind? And is this custom the same from the early La Tène to the Late La Tène (500 years of history and evolution)? Generally, the experts suggest that the moustach custom was an old and ancient custom for the ruling class. The practice seems to have nearly disappeared among the Gauls during the Late La Tène and the Gallic Wars, but to have survived among the Britons. Shaved face, full beard, narrow chin beard (goatee) and collar beard (chin strap) are found in iconographic representations as well.

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Another idea that is rumbling in my head. About the shouder pads, the Romans substituted the shoulder pads of their chainmail as what I have seen in may illustrations. Could we also substitute the chainmail shoulder pads (for example, leather or linen like in linothorax) for the Celts?

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6 hours ago, Genava55 said:

The account from Pliny is legit and it could be a real tradition, though I won't believe easily his statement about human sacrifice since the Romans have a true problem to talk about it, often exaggerating the reality. The sickle is definitely something plausible but I don't think it is really the symbol of the Druids. It seems more to be a sacred tool used at specific events.

Druids have different roles, they are also healers and chirurgeons/surgeons, guardian of laws and memory and philosophers. Therefore I suggest that the sickle could be a part of their tools but probably medical tools and divinatory tools as well. Archeologically, the subject is very very complicated but there are some findings of medical tools and even a bone helicoidal pendulum. The difficulty comes from the fact there are weapons in these burials sometimes.

Part of the reason why I added so much bags in the new druid texture.

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1 hour ago, wackyserious said:

Another idea that is rumbling in my head. About the shouder pads, the Romans substituted the shoulder pads of their chainmail as what I have seen in may illustrations. Could we also substitute the chainmail shoulder pads (for example, leather or linen like in linothorax) for the Celts?

It is plausible I think. It is a free interpretation from the artists but it could have been the case.

1 hour ago, wackyserious said:

Also, what are your insights on the Bryastovets horned helmet and the Deal warrrior helmet?

The horned helmet from Bulgaria? The problem is in its basic typology, it is a Hellenistic helmet, never seen further in the continent. It could be better on a Galatian unit, probably an helmet more suited to a cavalry unit but even for an infantryman it is plausible. The problem with the horned helmets is the confusion with mythological sources and roman misconceptions. There are others depictions, mainly on the Arc of Orange, but the typology is problematic. They are clearly Hellenistic helmet as well, never seen elsewhere. It has been suggested in the literature than the Romans used sometimes common relief cliché, mixing weapons from different periods to make the battle more heroic and Homeric, even to depict their own men. The question now, are there horned helmets among the Celts? Definitely. The Gundestrup cauldron shows horsemen with horns, birds and boars. I think the type of horns from the Bulgarian helmet is good, but the helmet below is not a common type among the Gauls. There are also others strange helmets found in France, at Tintignac but they are related to a carnyx carrier and religious practice. We know the Gauls did have the equivalent of signifer, therefore it is speculated that this is the kind of helmet they could have used.

The Deal warrior helmet is a kind of headdress found several times in Britain but robbed several times as well. Most of them have disappeared. The Deal warrior is suggested to be a druid and it is one of the reason than experts are casting doubt about the "Celtic monolithic culture" from previous historians, since this is a thing found only in Britain. Now they are coming backwards because they have found a Druidkrone in Germany, different but with some similarity. Honestly we absolutely don't know anyting about their function yet but there are numerous hints pointing to a religious role of the person wearing it.

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Originally I suggested the Mill hill Deal Warrior to be a battle-druid for the Britons, to give them something classy and different.

Edit: I will maybe retract a tiny bit my previous statement about the horns. I just realized that this kind of horns is exactly the same represented on three items: the Bulgarian helmet, the Gundestrup Cauldron suggesting Thracian technology and a statuette found in Denmark, probably Thracian as well. Therefore the horns could be more related to Eastern Celts or even Celto-Germanic cultures.

Edit2: I suggest to kept these helmets horns for Galatians or if we make a late elite cavalry unit from the Belgians (an idea I have). The Treveri were famous horsemen, heavily recruited by the Romans even after the Gallic Wars. The regions of Treveri is as well a major place of production of Post-Gallic Wars Celtic scabbards with bronze decoration, probably for the Celtic auxiliaries. These scabbards as been found even in Poland, probably because some Gallic and Germanic cavalrymen have been serving together in the Roman army.

Edited by Genava55
Modification
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@Genava55 I suspect that the horned helmets are pretty widespread European Bronze Age thing, that survived into Celtic times. 

Spoiler

Northern Italy bronze

celtic-warrior-small-bronze-statue-3-c-bc-allemagne-berlin-antikensammlung-smpk-northern-italy.jpg.a2c10414896f4ddead5b201c08c761bc.jpg

 

The famous Bormio stele of the Golassecca Culture also depicts a modestly horned helmet

bormio-stele-lombardy-golasecca-4-c-bc.jpg.0118d9b8361db6636bf9b62a7b82d8b4.jpg

 

Horned helmets were popular among the Nuragic culture

f259142c73fcd7e04a84497036a0c663.thumb.jpg.940d91f459c06552379b1a9e520a5c0f.jpg

 

Enkomi Cyprus Bronze Age

2130950917_440px-Gehrnter_Gott_Enkomi.jpg.1b264b4fc5727ff75bccf5ae46bfcb0c.jpg

 

Denmark Bronze Age

bronze-figurine-with-horned-helmet-late-bronze-age-800-400-bce-location-national-museum-copenhagen-denmark-P08B18.thumb.jpg.6219c96c7745316bf0634c31af69ea8b.jpg

 

Viksö helmets, bronze age denmark

c397dcaefa48ab889282f7ccd10f1533.thumb.png.e756ab200c50be2740e1f8de4446f15f.png

 

Even the Ancient Egyptians depicted the "Sea Peoples" with horned helmets.

I think horned helmets are part of the Bronze Age cultural substrate that the Celtic world inherited. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Sundiata said:

@Genava55 I suspect that the horned helmets are pretty widespread European Bronze Age thing, that survived into Celtic times. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Northern Italy bronze

celtic-warrior-small-bronze-statue-3-c-bc-allemagne-berlin-antikensammlung-smpk-northern-italy.jpg.a2c10414896f4ddead5b201c08c761bc.jpg

 

The famous Bormio stele of the Golassecca Culture also depicts a modestly horned helmet

bormio-stele-lombardy-golasecca-4-c-bc.jpg.0118d9b8361db6636bf9b62a7b82d8b4.jpg

 

Horned helmets were popular among the Nuragic culture

f259142c73fcd7e04a84497036a0c663.thumb.jpg.940d91f459c06552379b1a9e520a5c0f.jpg

 

Enkomi Cyprus Bronze Age

2130950917_440px-Gehrnter_Gott_Enkomi.jpg.1b264b4fc5727ff75bccf5ae46bfcb0c.jpg

 

Denmark Bronze Age

bronze-figurine-with-horned-helmet-late-bronze-age-800-400-bce-location-national-museum-copenhagen-denmark-P08B18.thumb.jpg.6219c96c7745316bf0634c31af69ea8b.jpg

 

Viksö helmets, bronze age denmark

c397dcaefa48ab889282f7ccd10f1533.thumb.png.e756ab200c50be2740e1f8de4446f15f.png

 

Even the Ancient Egyptians depicted the "Sea Peoples" with horned helmets.

I think horned helmets are part of the Bronze Age cultural substrate that the Celtic world inherited. 

 

 

It is weird, isn't it? Why this survived and not the others things from the Bronze Age? I agree, the sea peoples are maybe nothing related to the nordic world but they could be related to the nuragic. The subject of the horned helmets is very complex and it is really mysterious. Why we find nothing during the migration period? Excepted a few relief about the berserkers, the horned helmets seem to be never used. It could be something exclusive to the mythology and to the religious practices. Or maybe for the standard bearer and carnyx bearer like the Tintignac helmets and the Bormio relief suggest. Exactly like the masked helmet from the Romans, their existence doesn't mean it is something widespread in the whole army.  

Edited by Genava55
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@Genava55 it's weird, yes. I think there are a lot of things from the Neolithic and Bronze Age that will remain shrouded in mystery, but might help explain some widespread phenomenon. I agree that they probably had some ritual use, not combat, per se. No need to depict it in-game, in my opinion. But still interesting.

The horns on many of those horned helmets are similar to the horns of aurochs and ancient cattle breeds. The appearance of cattle herding cultures in the European Neolithic fundamentally changed things. I think it's fair to assume there were associated cattle cults. See how widespread bucrania are, for example... 

 

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Proposal: Gaesatae (Celtic Naked Fanatic)

  • The current actor file uses round shield (Which is not accurate according to @Genava55)
  • I have not added body paints at the moment (I have to confirm if continental Celts also painted their bodies)
  • No frontal nudity as I covered the genitals with body hair.

010519 - Celts (Gaesatae).jpg

 

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6 hours ago, wackyserious said:

I have not added body paints at the moment (I have to confirm if continental Celts also painted their bodies)

The unit seems to be very good like this. Body paint is something mainly attested on the British Islands (Britons and Picts). There are some people suggesting it could have been used in the continent, but it is astonishing that no author noticed it or represented it if it was the case. I would suggest to use it as a distinctive feature of the Britons. Especially since there is less choice in armor and helmet on the island, you must be creative with the other things for the advanced and elite version. Gladly, they have enough prestigious shields and the body paint can vary a lot. 

For the Gaesatae, I suggested to name it Bariogaisatos (furious spearman) since Gaesatae is in Latin and the Gaesatae are not accounted as naked all the time (Also Viridomaros is their king). If you are looking for some additional variations, you can add a cape on some of them and a prestigious helmet. 

image.png.8d0909d5b17d871fe782c0076203823f.png

Here my previous suggestion, but yours is good like this.

  • Generic Name: Gallic Fast Spearman
  • Specific Name: Bariogaisatos
    • Class: Spearman.
    • Hacker Armament: Heavy Spear.
    • Appearance:
      • Garb: Naked. With a cape or not.
      • Helmet: No helmet or Celtic helmet type Montefortino.  
      • Shield: Medium shield. With early iron umbo.
      • Figure(s): Face would either be bearded or have a large moustache (traditional). Torc around neck. Barefoot.

o    History: In the popular culture, Gaesatae are the naked warriors by excellence. But contrary to the common belief, all their accounts didn't correlate with the occurrence of naked warriors. Their king Britomaros even had a splendid armor according to the Romans. Besides, another account of naked warriors exists in the history of the Galatians, without any link to the Gaesatae. Terracotta figurines are even representing naked Galatian warriors. The choice here is to represent a general naked warrior as depicted in the Greco-Roman art. Bario- is meaning furious and Gaisatos is the translation of Gaesatae, meaning “those-who-fight-with-the-Gaisa”, a polyvalent spear that can be thrown. Naked warriors were frightening for fresh recruits. Polybius describes them as having a shield too small to cover their entire body.

    • Garrison: 1.
    • Function: Vulnerable to missile (low armor) but enough hit-points for close-combat. High damage delivery. Fast. Unable to change the attack mode (always aggressive).
  • Special: Damage Bonus against low experience units (basic).

 

Edit: The helmet suggested

image.png.8a6d3c1f79314124d10a29e36abaeee2.pngimage.png.cd52962dfecdb8405bb0e76d0b8a707c.png

Edited by Genava55
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For the Elite cavalry unit, I suggest to rely only on late material. Helmets and shield bosses from the Gallic Wars and post Gallic Wars. The sword at this time is very long for horsemen. I put here some useful picture for the concept:

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.6d5bf9c5466b0cfa8d0c6214721b3aa9.png

image.png.a54329abb9495b1d1d56ec4956e11e70.png

image.thumb.png.4235cb29b37290b7491e890360d006e1.png

image.png.c76d2acaa28752e8d555f7f72f76a650.png

image.thumb.png.801f1d428545df56f9fa1bd853588528.png

image.png.9be8a00e94c73eeb9616160c5eeb3a61.png

 

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1 minute ago, wackyserious said:

No issue on the loincloth on the Bariogaisatos?

For me no, I understand it is an issue then no problem. I don't have a better proposal. Your choice is discrete and not deranging.

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For levy unit, there is an attested cap found on relief. It could be useful for variation in the basic versions of some unit:

Spoiler

image.jpeg.e6276ca678fd828af7e27683e7950991.jpegimage.png.43a1e64485a238e4da66ad2de50d51fb.png

For the wicker shield attested in Gauls (according to Caesar), it could be useful for the javelin thrower:

Spoiler

image.png.8599da931a2c34e57b5aa65f77c4114e.png

image.thumb.jpeg.3d51c7d967337823b4b8023bec3c6c64.jpeg

image.jpeg.6595a052ee2670144e7aad21320f65f6.jpeg

Bonus (1950s):

image.jpeg.3b8814d0e2235264575aef9b6ce0a2e7.jpeg

 

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For the elite cavalryman and elite infantryman, you can add hexagonal shields if you want. This shape become attested since the 1st century BC. 

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