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L'ethu

Iberian Navy

81 posts in this topic

exactly. my question/suggestion is that ships by themselves shouldnt count as "survivors"; i mean, in Empire Earth, for instance, a total conquest victory is given if your opponent doesnt have any building THAT THEY CAN STILL USE. a house, for instance, doesnt count because it has no military functions, whereas a barracks can still conceivably produce units which (unlikely as it is) could destroy your entire civilization by themselves. a friend of mine had a situation like this in a round of Command & Conquer where his three enemies (CPs, i would imagine) all nuked him at the same time, but some of his army survived and he was able to capture some of his enemies' buildings and beat them anyway

in short, as long as the player still has units which can rebuild his civilization, then the game should continue, but since ships cant do that (right?), they shouldnt count towards "total annihilation" victory requirements

Edited by oshron

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Why shouldn't ships be counted? I'm not following. You realize your reasoning could apply to heroes and champion units and siege units? :) So, even if I have 50 ships, a Hero, and 20 Champion units, I should lose the game if my opponent has managed to destroy my buildings and still has 1 citizen-soldier left? :)

The conceptual problem everyone is having with this is that the Iberians would be screwed if the enemy took over the sea. You have to realize, on an island map, no matter what faction you are, you are screwed if the enemy takes control of the sea. Naval superiority is just not possible for the Iberians, so you just wouldn't choose them in a 1v1 islands match up... unless you developed some kind of amphibious assault strategy. :) I really don't think the Huns in Part II are going to have a a good time on island maps either, and neither should they. Same for Iberians in Part 1. :)

Although... I may be open to giving them the Celtic warship. I don't feel a particular need to do that though. I'm certainly okay with some factions having stark weaknesses in some areas, making them underdogs on certain maps or under certain conditions. Part of the fun could be learning how to overcome these weaknesses and achieve victory despite them. :D

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Why shouldn't ships be counted? I'm not following. You realize your reasoning could apply to heroes and champion units and siege units? :) So, even if I have 50 ships, a Hero, and 20 Champion units, I should lose the game if my opponent has managed to destroy my buildings and still has 1 citizen-soldier left? :)

The conceptual problem everyone is having with this is that the Iberians would be screwed if the enemy took over the sea. You have to realize, on an island map, no matter what faction you are, you are screwed if the enemy takes control of the sea. Naval superiority is just not possible for the Iberians, so you just wouldn't choose them in a 1v1 islands match up... unless you developed some kind of amphibious assault strategy. :) I really don't think the Huns in Part II are going to have a a good time on island maps either, and neither should they. Same for Iberians in Part 1. :)

This is reasonable but this should be made very clear, probably with a warning popping up if you pick then on a naval map. Also playing with random civs is pretty common so the random civ selector would also need to be aware of this.

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Why shouldn't ships be counted? I'm not following.

The enemy builds 1 warship and moves it far out to sea. The Iberian player can't win because it can't destroy the warship, even if it has total land control.

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The enemy builds 1 warship and moves it far out to sea. The Iberian player can't win because it can't destroy the warship, even if it has total land control.

Hmm... Then let's think of something other than giving them a warship. Perhaps some kind of fire ship? A ship that's on fire (slowly loses health) that damages enemy ships it encounters.

I just can't see exempting ships from ConquestCritical. They are units with an attack who can affect the outcome of the game. If they were essentially "dead" objects that had to be occupied by other units in order to function (like the original idea from 2003), then yeah. But as they are now, I can't see exempting them just to make island maps winnable for the Iberians.

Interesting discussion.

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Lets give the fishing boat and merchant ship garrison attack bonuses - You could fit 4 archers onto the Iberian fishing boat - even make the boat slightly bigger.

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Lets give the fishing boat and merchant ship garrison attack bonuses - You could fit 4 archers onto the Iberian fishing boat - even make the boat slightly bigger.

Not as sexy as a fire ship.

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I agree with that

Once we have the trample damage aura feature, we could just do it with a trample aura.

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Once we have the trample damage aura feature, we could just do it with a trample aura.

I can picture it now

0ADfireships01.jpg

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Do we have any historical records of what the Iberians did with regards to navel vessels?

Also, I think its time that we all put our heads together and come up with a awesome Iberian amphibious assault strategy.

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Not as sexy as a fire ship.

The Vandals also used galleys filled with brushwood and oil to destroy half of a Roman fleet anchored off Cape Bon during the Roman expedition in 469 AD. :)

So this is historically accurate... at least for the Vandals. I'm don't know if Iberians did use burning ships though. :huh:

Source: http://www.roman-empire.net/articles/article-016.html

Edited by hhyloc

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Perhaps these books could provide some information needed for us to understand the Iberian maritime activity:

1. Re-evaluating Iron Age maritime societies: the North West Iberian Peninsula by Rodrigo Pacheco Ruiz

2. Colonial Encounters in Ancient Iberia: Phoenician, Greek, and Indigenous Relations by Michael Dietler and Carolina Lopez-Ruiz

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This is reasonable but this should be made very clear, probably with a warning popping up if you pick them on a naval map. Also playing with random civs is pretty common so the random civ selector would also need to be aware of this.

This. This this this. It's okay if they don't have a warship, as long as they're slightly stronger on land... But then you absolutely need to make a "random for sea maps" options.

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But also, if you wanted a more superior ship, could you make diplomatic agreements with another player in order to control 'X' amount of units for 'Y' amount of resources? Likewise, it would be good if you could actually use garrisoned archers and such to defend your economic vessels.

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I thought ships were gonna be capturable? If they are then we just have to give the Iberians an ability to capture ships from land :P

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The main concern of the topic was how to give the Iberian player an option to build an indigenous naval fleet or a naval fleet supplied by its protector or mercenaries. The first option grants the player to convert civilian vessels into war vessels with the ability to attack and transport soldiers from an island to another island either for expansion purpose or military purpose(raiding, amphibious assault). The second option was a more historical based option, since the Iberian naval combat experience was a blank and most of them are under Carthage protection then it is possible that Carthage would protect the Iberian's interest by sending naval fleet to protect the Carthage maritime interest in Iberia. As in the game it could become an option that looks like some kind of "technology" that player could choose to research or not based on player's judgment which i have previously suggested. The third was a common sense based option, hiring mercenaries (historical regions and time frame as the limit) most likely to be Celts or maybe the Greeks who have colonies in the Iberian peninsula.

As for capturing ship is not really achievable because ships (warships) tend to fire missiles and boulder where they could attack in a very long range. To make the situation worst all the warships are heavily guarded by marines and it is impossible for soldiers to capture the ship without any risk unless it was harmless and close enough to the shore where soldiers could capture it.

Edited by L'ethu

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Why shouldn't ships be counted? I'm not following. You realize your reasoning could apply to heroes and champion units and siege units? :) So, even if I have 50 ships, a Hero, and 20 Champion units, I should lose the game if my opponent has managed to destroy my buildings and still has 1 citizen-soldier left? :)

The conceptual problem everyone is having with this is that the Iberians would be screwed if the enemy took over the sea. You have to realize, on an island map, no matter what faction you are, you are screwed if the enemy takes control of the sea. Naval superiority is just not possible for the Iberians, so you just wouldn't choose them in a 1v1 islands match up... unless you developed some kind of amphibious assault strategy. :) I really don't think the Huns in Part II are going to have a a good time on island maps either, and neither should they. Same for Iberians in Part 1. :)

Although... I may be open to giving them the Celtic warship. I don't feel a particular need to do that though. I'm certainly okay with some factions having stark weaknesses in some areas, making them underdogs on certain maps or under certain conditions. Part of the fun could be learning how to overcome these weaknesses and achieve victory despite them. :D

i mean more like the ships themselves, not the additional units garrisonned inside that are manning them. the idea is that, if the iberians cant get their own warships, then there's conceivably no way for them to win in a given setting if a human player sends their only remaining ships away from a battle to basically just troll the iberians (that's assuming that the iberians in this situation are also controlled by a human player). heroes, champions, and siege units cant rebuild the civilization either, but the difference is that the iberians would still be able to get at them, and those units are the ones that would most likely be killed off in a battle that would leave the enemy player with just their warships

i get what's been proposed, that you simply wouldn't use the iberians on a water map like that, but what if someone wanted to because of a strategy they wanted to employ with their ally (the aforementioned scenario of the iberians fighting on land while their hellenic allies harass the enemy navy), or if they simply wanted to undertake the challenge of playing as a civ with no warships for the fun of it? (they become so good at the game that they decide to intentionally handicap themselves for the thrill of it)

like i said, i get what youre saying. maybe the strictly terrestrial civs could have the ability to capture enemy warships like how they can already capture buildings? though that still leaves something of a balance/trolling problem...

Hmm... Then let's think of something other than giving them a warship. Perhaps some kind of fire ship? A ship that's on fire (slowly loses health) that damages enemy ships it encounters.

I just can't see exempting ships from ConquestCritical. They are units with an attack who can affect the outcome of the game. If they were essentially "dead" objects that had to be occupied by other units in order to function (like the original idea from 2003), then yeah. But as they are now, I can't see exempting them just to make island maps winnable for the Iberians.

Interesting discussion.

giving them a (fictional?) fireship sounds like a good idea to me. perhaps they could have an additional unique technology at the end that allows them to build just one type of warship?

personally, i really like and would support the idea of giving them warships based on what the vandals used

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I'm all for the Pop-Ups or Notes being included on Random and Faction Descriptions. This won't require unnecessary balancing, be non-intrusive, and still keep the same play-style for the Iberians. It also won't infringe on historical evidence. If fire ships really are needed, they can be modded in by people that want to even the playing field.

Edited by SypheDMar

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Well, i think its quite okay if the Iberians have fire ships because its quite natural for them to come out with this idea because the enemy have true navy not a partisan navy. 

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I think that the Iberians need some kind a transport vessel at the very least. If we put in fire ships, I think that you should get to choose when to light it. After all, how many people build a boat and promptly set it on fire with no enemies around?

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I think that the Iberians need some kind a transport vessel at the very least. If we put in fire ships, I think that you should get to choose when to light it. After all, how many people build a boat and promptly set it on fire with no enemies around?

Merchant ships are transports. They can garrison 15 units inside. (y)

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I dont think many people have done their homework, as mythos has said, merchant ships are transports.

And i think i posted (a while back now) a similar concern, but my statement was along the lines of garrisoning troops into ships and ship-to-ship combat.

Boarding, so to speak.

So iberians wont have "war ships", they will do the barbarian thing and.. well.. TROOPSTACK TROOPSTACK!

They could get merchant ships and pack them up with javelins and slingers (they have those right? im not so sure about arrows)

And use them to fight, and also do the same but iwth infantry, and use them for boarding actions.

Though, they werent exactly naval so their boarding actions should be slower than even the gauls/celts. Cos they at least had a semi-fleet, (methinks?)

And im not sure if it is historicly accurate to have fire ships in this time, prove me wrong by finding a link to THIS TIME PERIOD (not IMPERIAL ROME PERIOD) of a battle where such tactics were used.

Nuff sed.

Also, the post i speak of was about marine type units, where they come with the ships and they get it running, but have a combat bonus in boarding actions etc.

Edited by AuroN2

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