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14 分钟前,Lion.Kanzen 说:

我永远不能尝试这个。

This is an old game from 2004. He is very interesting because this game also has an experience leveling system and a mechanism to revive fallen soldiers, which solves the problem that melee units are easy to die and not easy to retain veterans.

 

16 分钟前,Lion.Kanzen 说:

金色部落听起来很熟悉。

Same game engine as Ancient Wars Sparta.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, AIEND said:

 

 

Same game engine as Ancient Wars Sparta.

Yes, I noticed that is almost same game.(golden horde)

32 minutes ago, AIEND said:

This is an old game from 2004. He is very interesting because this game also has an experience leveling system and a mechanism to revive fallen soldiers, which solves the problem that melee units are easy to die and not easy to retain veterans

Is very warcraft like.

Edited by Lion.Kanzen
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25 分钟前,Lion.Kanzen 说:

很像魔兽。

Warcraft is more like an RPG, while Armies Of Exigo has no heroes, complex unit skills and technology make up the game, and his single-player campaign storyline is also interesting.

From an RTS perspective, this game has a lot of design that we can learn from. For example, we can make killing enemies generate a new resource, and then use this resource to upgrade soldiers from recruits to advanced, so that combat experience will not be wasted as soldiers die, but continue to generate gains from a macro level. Of course, the glory of DE mod is such a resource.

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13 hours ago, AIEND said:

I talked about this before, soldiers should not get armor and appearance changes, but only get combat experience - single damage, attack frequency, hit rate, block (melee defense).

The reason they get armour is because in this era the more elite soldiers could afford to buy their own gear and so it is reasonable that they get better armour the more experienced they get. Currently it is excruciatingly hard to make meaningful use of that experience bonus unless you are a Greek state with hoplite tradition or have idle troops in a barracks for 4 minutes. 

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37 分钟前,法比尤斯说:

他们得到盔甲的原因是因为在这个时代,更多的精英士兵可以买得起自己的装备,所以他们越有经验越能得到更好的盔甲是合理的。 目前,除非您是具有重装步兵传统的希腊国家或在兵营中有闲置部队 4 分钟,否则要有意义地使用该经验奖励非常困难。 

I feel like this can only be explained by loot. Soldiers gain combat experience because they kill the enemy, and when they kill the enemy, there will be loot, which can be used to buy better equipment.

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14 hours ago, AIEND said:

I feel like this can only be explained by loot. Soldiers gain combat experience because they kill the enemy, and when they kill the enemy, there will be loot, which can be used to buy better equipment.

A good idea if you intend to use experience as a resource that can be used to upgrade troops, but not for specific individuals unless you feel like doing micro on last hits, and we doing RTS not Dota last I checked :) 

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46 分钟前,法比尤斯说:

如果您打算将经验用作可用于升级部队的资源,这是一个好主意,但不适用于特定个人,除非您想在最后一击中进行微操作,并且我们最近在做 RTS 而不是 Dota 我检查了 :) 

If you speak from the perspective of historical reality, then a soldier's combat experience may have nothing to do with his equipment, because what equipment he can afford is often only related to his level of wealth. You can see wealthy soldiers with the best armor but zero combat experience, and poor soldiers with good combat experience but average equipment.
From the design point of view of RTS, we should not give too much gain to combat experience, and should make the blacksmith the main source of armor upgrades. Because this can better balance those players who are good at tactical operations and those who are good at economic operations.

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2 hours ago, AIEND said:

If you speak from the perspective of historical reality, then a soldier's combat experience may have nothing to do with his equipment, because what equipment he can afford is often only related to his level of wealth. You can see wealthy soldiers with the best armor but zero combat experience, and poor soldiers with good combat experience but average equipment.
From the design point of view of RTS, we should not give too much gain to combat experience, and should make the blacksmith the main source of armor upgrades. Because this can better balance those players who are good at tactical operations and those who are good at economic operations.

Fair observations. Thing is though, those experience levels are still largely unused on account of melee never surviving long enough to make any meaningful use of it. A possible solution could be to add extra armour technologies for melee troops, like we had in A23 before they unified them into single technologies.

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2 分钟前,Fabius 说:

公平的观察。 但问题是,这些经验等级在很大程度上仍然没有被使用,因为近战从来没有存活足够长的时间来进行任何有意义的使用。 一个可能的解决方案是为近战部队添加额外的装甲技术,就像我们在 A23 中将它们统一为单一技术之前所做的那样。

I think the experience cost required for melee units to be promoted should be lowered to make it easier for them to become advanced or elite.
The other is the ranged units, mainly the damage of the javelin and the slinger is too high, should be reduced by 1/3.

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6 minutes ago, AIEND said:

I think the experience cost required for melee units to be promoted should be lowered to make it easier for them to become advanced or elite.
The other is the ranged units, mainly the damage of the javelin and the slinger is too high, should be reduced by 1/3.

The experience cost was already lowered in A24 or A25, I cannot recall. Lowering ranged damage is a reasonable idea. The one problem is that champions will become even more overwhelming. That also goes for the blacksmith. You will need technologies aimed specifically at citizen soldiers else champions will become stronger. At this stage the whole champion concept seems broken, were they intended as unique units or simply a troop that civ did really well in.

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advancedadvanced

2 hours ago, Fabius said:

A24或A25的经验成本已经降低了,我不记得了。 降低远程伤害是一个合理的想法。 一个问题是冠军将变得更加势不可挡。 这也适用于铁匠。 您将需要专门针对公民士兵的技术,否则冠军将变得更强大。 在这个阶段,整个冠军的概念似乎被打破了,他们是打算作为独特的单位还是仅仅是一个文明做得很好的部队。

On the one hand, I don’t think the current way of unlocking champions is very good. I think we should use technology to upgrade a barracks to a advanced barracks, and then train champions in the advanced barracks. Each ordinary barracks needs to be upgraded to asenior barracks separately, and the number of advanced barracks is limited, such as a maximum of 4.
This avoids the problem of players building a large number of barracks first, and then training a large number of champions immediately after unlocking. There will also be no problems such as fortresses that are too expensive and take up too much land.
On the other hand, I don't think the technology of the blacksmith should affect the champion, because the champion is already "at his best" in theory. The combat power gap between elite citizen soldiers and champions should be narrowed, making champions those players who are not good at tactical operations and can't get enough veterans, and can use more resources to offset the combat power gap by focusing on economic development.

Also, I think there are two categories of champions, the very elite soldiers and the "technical arms".
A faction itself has both citizen spearmen and champion spearmen, so obviously champions are just enhanced versions of citizen soldiers, they are not unique.
Only champions such as war elephants, chariots, and cataphracts without a corresponding citizen soldier are unique.

Edited by AIEND
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11 minutes ago, AIEND said:

On the one hand, I don’t think the current way of unlocking champions is very good. I think we should use technology to upgrade a military camp to a high-level military camp, and then train champions in the high-level military camp. Each ordinary military camp needs to be upgraded to a high-level military camp separately, and the number of high-level military camps is limited, such as a maximum of 4.
This avoids the problem of players building a large number of barracks first, and then training a large number of champions immediately after unlocking. There will also be no problems such as fortresses that are too expensive and take up too much land.
On the other hand, I don't think the technology of the blacksmith should affect the champion, because the champion is already "at his best" in theory. The combat power gap between elite citizen soldiers and champions should be narrowed, making champions those players who are not good at tactical operations and can't get enough veterans, and can use more resources to offset the combat power gap by focusing on economic development.

Also, I think there are two categories of champions, the very elite soldiers and the "technical arms".
A faction itself has both citizen spearmen and champion spearmen, so obviously champions are just enhanced versions of citizen soldiers, they are not unique.
Only champions such as war elephants, chariots, and cataphracts without a corresponding citizen soldier are unique.

An interesting idea. Fortresses though don't train champions anymore anyway, so no issue there. Removing the affect of blacksmith on champions is an interesting idea, it would shake up things, I am just uncertain how beneficial that shaking will be. under current circumstances you will have citizen spear and sword infantry with 2 more armour than champions, the big difference being much less health. Even the attack might be higher, uncertain here. Therefore the question becomes how much does this reduce the usefulness of the champion overall.

Cataphracts are just beefed up lancers. Chariots are simply beefed up skirmisher or archer cav. The only true unique champion units we have are foot axemen for Kush and elephants

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Hypothetically if we followed this path it would be ideal to drop ranged damage as well. It wont be necessary either to change the method of recruitment for champions as that will weaken them to much I think. cutting them off from blacksmith upgrades will be sufficient.

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9 分钟前,Fabius 说:

在当前情况下,您将拥有比冠军多 2 护甲的公民长矛和剑步兵,最大的区别是生命值要低得多。 甚至攻击可能更高,这里不确定。 因此问题就变成了这会在多大程度上降低冠军的整体实用性。

I think the champion's armor and attack should be slightly higher than the maximum armor and attack that a citizen soldier of the same type can get from combat experience or a blacksmith.

11 分钟前,Fabius 说:

Cataphracts只是加强了枪兵。 战车只是加强了散兵或弓箭手骑士。 我们拥有的唯一真正独特的冠军单位是库什和大象的脚斧手

The positioning of Cataphracts and chariots needs to be adjusted in the later alpha, they should be very different units from the general cavalry spearmen or cavalry archers.

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13 分钟前,法比尤斯说:

我必须指出,公民长枪兵的护甲已经比步行冠军更高,所以这并不像人们想象的那样不合理。

This is the positioning problem of pikeman. It has been suggested to weaken the pikeman's protection to be more in line with historical reality.

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9 minutes ago, AIEND said:

I think the champion's armor and attack should be slightly higher than the maximum armor and attack that a citizen soldier of the same type can get from combat experience or a blacksmith.

The positioning of Cataphracts and chariots needs to be adjusted in the later alpha, they should be very different units from the general cavalry spearmen or cavalry archers.

Agreed on both counts, The cataphracts and chariots are currently under discussion in a different thread I believe.

9 minutes ago, AIEND said:

This is the positioning problem of pikeman. It has been suggested to weaken the pikeman's protection to be more in line with historical reality.

I noted they had dropped the pierce armour of pikemen by 2 in the changelog for A26.

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13 minutes ago, Fabius said:

假设我们沿着这条路走,那么降低远程伤害也是理想的选择。 也没有必要改变招募英雄的方法,因为我认为这会削弱他们。 将它们从铁匠升级中切断就足够了。

If we make chariots, and cataphracts more unique, then they will be strengthened and it will be necessary to change the training method.

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1 分钟前,Fabius 说:

我注意到他们在 A26 的更新日志中将长枪兵的穿刺装甲降低了 2。

In fact, I think it should be lower, or in other words, pikeman should have lower protection for long-range weapons than spearmen.

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17 minutes ago, AIEND said:

If we make chariots, and cataphracts more unique, then they will be strengthened and it will be necessary to change the training method.

In what manner should the training be different?

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46 分钟前,法比尤斯说:

培训应该以什么方式有所不同?

As said before, they should be trained in advanced stables.

In addition, I have played Borg's mod on A23. He made a high-level barrack upgrade for the Macedonians. The feature is that after the upgrade, the barracks can train champions, but they can't train civic soldiers. I think this is very interesting. , we can make this upgrade cost little to no cost.

Edited by AIEND
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46 minutes ago, AIEND said:

As said before, they should be trained in advanced stables.

In addition, I have played Borg's mod on A23. He made a high-level barrack upgrade for the Macedonians. The feature is that after the upgrade, the barracks can train champions, but they can't train civic soldiers. I think this is very interesting. , we can make this upgrade cost little to no cost.

Alright, thats seesm agreeable, i prefer token costs over heavier ones as the game runs so fast already its just annoying having to wait for something when every second counts and having to pay a lot for it into the bargain.

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16 分钟前,Fabius 说:

好吧,这看起来很不错,我更喜欢代币成本而不是较重的成本,因为游戏运行速度已经如此之快,当每一秒都很重要时,不得不等待某些东西并且不得不为讨价还价付出很多代价。

At times like these, making a choice is itself an opportunity cost, even if it doesn't cost in kind.
Because after leveling up, even if you're low on resources, you won't be able to train cheap citizen soldiers anymore.

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other topics mentioned in other threads
unique champions: chariots, what is the difference between a chariot and a regular or champion cavalry unit? 
catafractos, the heaviest cavalry of the time...
carthaginian mounted champions, why are they not in the temple ?
ships, which can and do not carry artillery and elephants.
archers on elephants, they also have 60m of distance, I would put them something more.
Roman castrum, they have to make bolts, as in Numantia. 
the siege towers should be able to capture (with troops inside): towers, castle, walls and CC or give an area bonus for the capture. 

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3 hours ago, AIEND said:

At times like these, making a choice is itself an opportunity cost, even if it doesn't cost in kind.
Because after leveling up, even if you're low on resources, you won't be able to train cheap citizen soldiers anymore.

This is true. You would also have to build more barracks overall and be careful about which ones you upgrade to make champions. 

I have advocated for this in the past with the OP champions in mind (consular bodyguard, firecav). But I soon realized that the main issues with champions are not that the unlock is so cheap but that their actual power and survivability is so great. Also, it is not all champions but only a few that are problematically powerful.

firecav are getting a big nerf this next alpha, and I think consular bodyguard are getting an armor nerf if I am not mistaken.

I certainly think that if we have unstoppable masses of champions in the future that come from barracks or stable that this would be a great solution.

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