Han China

[Nullus]

Perhaps a more realistic mechanic for the princess would be some bonus that she confers to the civ to which she is sent. For example, the princess would have to be garrisoned in one of the other civ's civic centres, and would then give that building faster training for women, stronger capture resistance, more capture points, or some other good bonus. To additionally represent a strengthened alliance, perhaps the Hans could be able to build their buildings within the territory influence of that civic centre as well, or within a certain distance of it. I don't know if that is possible, but it would be interesting. 

The benefit of this approach is that it actually would strengthen alliances. Since the civ to which the princess is sent would only get her bonus while they're allied with her player, they would want to keep that alliance. The bonus would have to be good enough to provide a strong incentive, but not a direct offensive military bonus that would make them too strong. This would be a more realistic, organic way to simulate a stronger alliance.

[Nullus]

For the wagon, perhaps princesses could have slower walk speed and low armour, so to transport them for long distances a cart to also be trained, in which the princess could be garrisoned. The cart could have higher armour and faster speed, which would make transporting the princess safer, but also somewhat expensive, which could provide a balancing disincentive.

[ymming]

Hi, some suggestion here:
the "sign board" thing on the town center, barrack and other building can actually be removed as the “sign board" were started to be popular on Tang/Song dynasty.
The word "大雄宝殿 da xiong bao dian" will ONLY be used on Buddhist temple (usually on the main temple)

Another suggestion for the Han building is adding "阙que" (stone pillars gate) on some main building like town center, fortress, wonders. As the "que" structure were greatly used in the Han dynasty.

[artoo]

54 minutes ago, Nullus said:

The benefit of this approach is that it actually would strengthen alliances. Since the civ to which the princess is sent would only get her bonus while they're allied with her player, they would want to keep that alliance. The bonus would have to be good enough to provide a strong incentive, but not a direct offensive military bonus that would make them too strong. This would be a more realistic, organic way to simulate a stronger alliance.

Yes, but for this ti implement, you'd have to be able to query or change diplomacy values via tech modifiers.

Would also offer some interesting mechanics for the ministers to garrison in allied buildings for example.

Or eg princess garrisons enemy building and sabotages eco or so, until she is uncovered and exposed.

[artoo]

2 hours ago, Lopess said:

This camp was very good to congratulate, it reminds me how much it is possible to create new structures using only existing elements. You can create a separate mod with this mechanic, if we think about it there should be an interesting diplomatic mechanic for several civs already present in 0ad, to which in the future you can add them too.

Its pure fun to make tactical units. Would be easy to attach two Yurts instead of arab tents and gear her for Xiongnu interaction.

In my view, the camp mechanics isn't that bad, and would implement a certain accuracy how cadet branches of a royal house come to be, and how rivalries arise from it.

 

I find this interesting short read, what gave reason behind a princess unit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Wu_of_Han

Edited November 10, 2021 by artoo

[Nullus]

1 hour ago, artoo said:

Yes, but for this ti implement, you'd have to be able to query or change diplomacy values via tech modifiers.

 

I think that it's already possible to have techs that are dependent upon diplomatic states, such as the allied bonuses for civs. The way I would plan it, the techs wouldn't have to change diplomatic states, they would just provide an encouragement for the other players to change the states themselves.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Nullus

[artoo]

50 minutes ago, Nullus said:

I think that it's already possible to have techs that are dependent upon diplomatic states, such as the allied bonuses for civs. The way I would plan it, the techs wouldn't have to change diplomatic states, they would just provide an encouragement for the other players to change the states themselves.

The problem as is, there is diplomacy panel, and there is game mechanics.

You for example can't sneak a unit in an enemy building, or even neutral one afaik, eg to spy/vision or steal resources, techs whatever. Like real spy units instead of this rudimentary thing thats probably of no real use to bribe traders.

 

[Nullus]

As I see it, the princess's game mechanics wouldn't directly control anything in the diplomacy panel, they would just provide the other player with a strong incentive to keep the diplomatic state at "allied". 

An example scenario where this could be useful: a Han player is fighting against a some other civilizations, and has a strong allied player. He's afraid that his ally will betray him and take over his territory, so his sends a princess to his ally. The princess provides a bonus to the ally that he wouldn't be able to get in any other way. This bonus is dependent on remaining allied to the Han player, so he if he betrays the Han player, he'll lose his bonus. That would provide an incentive to stay allied, and not betray him. 

Another example: a Han player wants to form an alliance with another neutral player, so he offers to send a princess. If the other player accepts, that would require an alliance between the two of them, since the bonus couldn't be used any other way.

The mechanic wouldn't necessarily be useful in all games, but I think that it would be a nice extra strategy to have available in those games where could be useful.

[artoo]

3 minutes ago, Nullus said:

The mechanic wouldn't necessarily be useful in all games, but I think that it would be a nice extra strategy to have available in those games where could be useful.

Yup, I think that the princess camp, could call it diplomatic mission or so, is a very nice incentive in team games.

 

For the sake of some playing around, here the current capabilities for this weak building.

 

Don't worry @Stan, the princess is deactivated in master branch, but merged in for eventual use if required.

[Nullus]

The only issue I see with having a camp for the princess would be that, as I see it, the building is what provides the bonus, so the building could be captured fairly easily, either by the enemy or by a betraying ally. Also, it would be harder to defend. I would think that her husband would want to keep the princess safe within his buildings rather than having her stay in some small camp. Having the princess as a unit would also make it easier to transport her around the map to provide her bonus in different places.

[artoo]

3 minutes ago, Nullus said:

The only issue I see with having a camp for the princess would be that, as I see it, the building is what provides the bonus, so the building could be captured fairly easily, either by the enemy or by a betraying ally. Also, it would be harder to defend. I would think that her husband would want to keep the princess safe within his buildings rather than having her stay in some small camp. Having the princess as a unit would also make it easier to transport her around the map to provide her bonus in different places.

 I agree, the sceenshot is the cut down version of the camp, with features removed so to speak.

Its why it was intended to make the camp upgradable to CC after the fiefdom tech is researched.

The camps expands, the princess and husband have children, and founded a dynasty on their own, to eventually challenge the dynasty that spawned them.

 

Quote

Forcing noblemen back to their own fiefdoms. A large number of noblemen were living in the capital Chang'an, lobbying court officials while exploiting the central government's budget to cover their expenses despite already having gained great wealth from their own feudal land tenure taxation. Emperor Wu's new policy dictated that they could no longer live off the government's spending and must leave the capital if lacking any justifiable reason to keep staying;

 

 

[artoo]

First little test game with proof of concept of the princess mechanics.

Princess moves in roman enemy territory and establishes her camp, a young roman nobleman  is in love with her already, baby on the way, they build a big house.

Edited November 11, 2021 by artoo

[Lion.Kanzen]

It would be interesting to be able to train troops from the allied player.

[artoo]

9 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

It would be interesting to be able to train troops from the allied player.

 

Yeah, that's what I meant, impossible to garrison a unit in allied, or enemy buildings without changing diplomatic status.

 

Btw, Hero Han Xin is a powerful combo along with the princess camp. Maybe atm OP.

[Dizaka]

1 hour ago, artoo said:

Btw, Hero Han Xin is a powerful combo along with the princess camp. Maybe atm OP.

That's not OP.  That's awesome synergy, lol.

OP would be something like the Mauryas priest hero or the Gaul/Rome/Mace/Brit additional dmg to units. 

Extra vision + movement speed (not attack speed) is not OP.  I think gauls or iberians have a walk speed bonus hero.

 

Question:  Is the walk speed bonus applies through a global aura or applies to within a range?  If it applies to range, does it include hero or exclude them?  There are/were situations where walk speed didn't apply to hero and it causes unit speed issues.

[artoo]

3 minutes ago, Dizaka said:

Question:  Is the walk speed bonus applies through a global aura or applies to within a range?  If it applies to range, does it include hero or exclude them?  There are/were situations where walk speed didn't apply to hero and it causes unit speed issues.

The vision and walk speed is global, the promotion aura has radius.

The not ingame princess camp has also range auras, since more camps would stack globally.

 

The halberd Hero has yet to see real combat against humans, I think the halberd as is might be a very deadly weapon.

[Dizaka]

On 10/11/2021 at 12:24 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Guys, the Princess Camp is a fantasy element that takes the civ so far removed from the other civs that you jeopardize their inclusion. 

I agree to an extent.  But also, isn't 0ad just a simulation, therefore a fantasy, of historical units?  The princess isn't so much of a "fire breathing dragon" but more of a simulation of han diplomacy that is implemented into 0ad in a unique way.  This "unique way" is something that has been yearned for in civ uniqueness so that not every civ is a cookie-cutter civ with just a different variety of units.

[artoo]

My ideal of such a unit would be the ability to sneak in any building(no camp), eg to steal tech, like making the units of the building or taking over a CC for a timed period, or any other havoc that could be caused with such mechanics.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Mercenaries:

https://www.artstation.com/jfoliveras/albums/2232680

Yue warrior

Spoiler

 

BAIYUE (THE HUNDRED YUE), CHINA’S SOUTHERN BARBARIANS
Yue or Baiyue is the name by which the Han Chinese knew the tribes living in what is now southern China and the jungles of Southeast Asia. This was an umbrella term including many peoples with common traits as well as differences (something like the nomads of the steppes), and their ethno-linguistic diversity is still a matter of debate, although there is some consensus that at least part of them were Austronesian peoples. The northernmost Yue ended up assimilated into Han Chinese culture and their territory became today’s southern China, but the rest of the Yue evolved into the Vietnamese, the Thai, and the Khmers, among others, eventually adopting Hinduism and Buddhism and becoming Indianized. The Yue are also believed to have a common ancestry with insular Austronesians, and that means being related with Polynesian peoples such as the natives of Hawaii, the Maori of New Zealand or the Rapa Nui of Easter Island. In modern-day southern China, there was a Yue kingdom called Nanyue, ruled by a dynasty of Chinese descent and considerably more sinicised than any other Yue. Chinese influence in Nanyue began as soon as the Qin dynasty, the dynasty of China’s first emperor, so, by the time emperor Wu of Han (Wudi) conquered Nanyue, this was very much a mix of barbarian and Chinese cultures. Emperor Wu, famous for his Siberian campaign against the Xiongnu, the War of the Heavenly Horses against the Dayuan, and for having sent the envoy Zhang Qian to Hellenistic Bactria, also annexed Nanyue to the Han Empire. The tribes further south, the Hundred Yue or Baiyue, would be much more primal than the half Chinese / half barbarian Nanyue. The Chinese described the Yue in their original form as being completely tattooed, having their hair either short or untied (opposite to the Chinese who wore it in a bun), blackening their teeth, worshipping animal totems, practicing cannibalism, wearing clothes and armours made of plant fibres, and living in huts. The Yue were also described as skilled seafarers and sword-makers, knowing both bronze and iron metallurgy.

 

 

Dian Warrior

Spoiler

THE DIAN KINGDOM, China’s southwestern barbarians.
You already saw my take on the Yue or Baiyue, which were the barbarian tribes that inhabited the Pacific coast of mainland Southeast Asia and Maritime Southeast Asia, peoples that are thought to be related with the Austronesian islanders of the Pacific Ocean. But the Yue where not the only “southern barbarians” of China’s Han Empire. To the southwest of ancient China, in the central lakes of what is now the province of Yunnan, there was a people known as the Dian, who are thought to have been organized in a kingdom and hold considerable power. Apart from the sources, archaeologists have identified a distinctive Bronze Age material culture around the lakes of Yunnan that corresponds with the kingdom of Dian. It is possible that the Dian people had spoken a language belonging to the Tibeto-Burman family. The art of the Dian was highly figurative and naturalistic, in contrast with the more stylised and abstract art of the early dynasties of China. Their bronzes show scenes of battle, ritual, parade, hunting, etc. Dian art often depicts scenes of headhunting and severed heads of their long-haired enemies, and their most depicted animal is the ox. From Dian bronzes we can also tell they wore heavy lamellar armours, with arm guards, neck guards, helmets and greaves. Armours that resemble those worn by Central Asian nomads like the Saka or the Yuezhi. It is thought that the Dian had connections with the Himalayan region and the steppe, and some Dian bronze objects are thought to have influence from the Saka/Scythian “animal style”. Other bronzes show evidence of connections in the opposite direction, with Vietnam’s Dong Son material culture, which is associated with the Yue. The kingdom of Dian was finally conquered by the expansionist emperor Wu of Han, also known as Wudi. Following their annexation to China, the Dian were gradually sinicized.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Champion/Hero shield pattern?

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/AqQXd5

 

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Xiongnu Chieftain

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/k4YzAy

Edited November 13, 2021 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[artoo]

The princess could hire a mercenary unit of the civ where she establishes her camp, and remove one more champ unit.

[artoo]

The Han in current master use the game templates for crossbow, but I added a slight crush damage to the damage, because it is powerful bolts, no arrows.

This should be default in templates for bolt projectile weapons, thus shoushe also has a slight crush damage scorpion, and equivalents should have too.

 

Overall, Han do in tests very well with infantry, mass bolt weapons and Ji(halberd) in front, and mixed in some archers.

Edited November 14, 2021 by artoo

[artoo]

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by artoo

[artoo]

Some conclusions from the above videos.

 

Well made point, the Han crossbow is more like a ballista, field artillery, likely transported by wagons, and mounted on them.

Excellent defensive weapon, eg from walls, turrets.

Due to so little data, some assumption need to be made, eg they likely used against their main enemy Xiongnu heavy pull crossbows against horse mounted very mobile Xiongnu. High penetration rate of speedy heavy bolts, piercing armor, crushing wooden shields besides piercing.

Accuracy might be similar to very heavy bows at similar range, which an average human can't pull, and release with precision, unless trained for some 10-15 years. A heavy crossbow outranges the bow, depending what bow is mounted.

 

The model currently used is kind of inaccurate, its not handled with ease like modeled.

 

 

 

 

The princess camp will take a shot at hiring a Xiongnu warlord in the princess branch, and the champ cav crossbowman is removed. I think it is unlikely the Han used cav crossbow units.

Edited November 15, 2021 by artoo

[Dizaka]

3 hours ago, artoo said:

Some conclusions from the above videos.

 

Well made point, the Han crossbow is more like a ballista, field artillery, likely transported by wagons, and mounted on them.

Excellent defensive weapon, eg from walls, turrets.

Due to so little data, some assumption need to be made, eg they likely used against their main enemy Xiongnu heavy pull crossbows against horse mounted very mobile Xiongnu. High penetration rate of speedy heavy bolts, piercing armor, crushing wooden shields besides piercing.

Accuracy might be similar to very heavy bows at similar range, which an average human can't pull, and release with precision, unless trained for some 10-15 years. A heavy crossbow outranges the bow, depending what bow is mounted.

 

The model currently used is kind of inaccurate, its not handled with ease like modeled.

 

 

 

What about this?  To me it seems like the crossbow was very imprecise.  Seems like it was a real threat up close but not really from a distance. 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Dizaka

[artoo]

51 minutes ago, Dizaka said:

What about this?  To me it seems like the crossbow was very imprecise.  Seems like it was a real threat up close but not really from a distance. 

 

The last video I posted in the last comment also talks about the use of the repeating crossbow.

Their conclusion is, this was a home defense weapon, used at home.

It not powerful enough for war. I would agree with the conclusion.

 

The Crossbow History vid also in last comment shows near the end the Han system of how they classified crossbows based on draw weight units of 1-10 stone, with 1 stone = ~29.3kg or 64.5 pounds.

So at 10 stone, its a draw weight of ~300 kg or 645 pounds. No human draws that with arm and back muscles. Comparison, an english longbow is at ~200 pounds draw, and this takes years of training, and even if you can draw that, you gotta hit a target with that weight, very hard long training.

The average crossbow at 6 stone was as effective and at least as powerful as a medieval steel crossbow, with higher fire rates per minute. 2-3 people drawing is faster than using a winding mechanism. The medieval European crossbow is sometimes dubbed the sniper rifle of that time.

These were powerful weapons, shooting up 280+ meters. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by artoo