Issue with Chariot-Actors

[Mr.lie]

Yesterday i opened an issue on https://github.com/0ADMods/han_china

Today i edited the issue.

On 20 Mar i opened a similar issue and got at least the answer from artoo:

"If there are errors throw for other chariots, that's not a Han mod problem, but in the public mod.
Han does not alter public mod data."

There are several options to solve this problem and have the option to play with all chariots from the Main-game and Han_China.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Mr.lie

[Mr.lie]

[Mr.lie]

The problem is also in DE:

[Nescio]

Thank you for the head's up. I've seen the issue you posted on github today, but haven't had the opportunity yet to investigate. Since the chariots in the public mod are fine, this is evidently a problem of the Han China mod; the error is present in Terra Magna and Delenda Est because those got their files from the Han.

If you happen to know how to fix it, feel free to make a pull request. If not, no problem, I'll try myself later this week.

[Mr.lie]

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

Thank you for the head's up. I've seen the issue you posted on github today, but haven't had the opportunity yet to investigate. Since the chariots in the public mod are fine, this is evidently a problem of the Han China mod; the error is present in Terra Magna and Delenda Est because those got their files from the Han.

If you happen to know how to fix it, feel free to make a pull request. If not, no problem, I'll try myself later this week.

I would likely make a pull request (slow and accurat). A similar problem i've figured out with "..\skeletons\bow.xml" from Main-Game and "..\skeletons\Bow.xml" from Millenium AD related to the Archer-actors from the Standalone-Mod "Xiongnu" on https://github.com/0ADMods/xiongnu

If the "..\skeletons\Bow.xml" from Millenium AD isn't present these actors would throw errors:

ERROR: art/meshes/props/weapons/bow/weap_xion_bow.dae: Assertion not satisfied (line 393): failed requirement "recognised skeleton structure"

ERROR: Could not load mesh 'art/meshes/props/weapons/bow/weap_xion_bow.dae'

FYI: i've begin making Terra Magna ready for A24 (slightly and hopeful correct). I try to leave the files as they are except necessary changes. So i don't copy i.e. files from DE or Standalone-Xiongnu to TM. I hope, this is also your opinion. The necessary Thracians are still ready.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Mr.lie

[Nescio]

13 minutes ago, Mr.lie said:

FYI: i've begin making Terra Magna ready for A24 (slightly and hopeful correct).

Please don't. The idea is each civ has its own mod, development and correction should be done there. Once the next alpha is released, Terra Magna can then simply bundle all those civs and issue a new release.

[Mr.lie]

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

Since the chariots in the public mod are fine, this is evidently a problem of the Han China mod

This was also my opinion, because the

..\skeletons\chariot.xml

from the main-game exists since 8 Jul 2013, from HanChina 23 Oct 2018. So, if a modder creates a same file as in the main-game, he has to make sure he don't break the main-game.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Mr.lie

[Mr.lie]

3 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Please don't. The idea is each civ has its own mod, development and correction should be done there. Once the next alpha is released, Terra Magna can then simply bundle all those civs and issue a new release.

Correct, i'll stop.

[Nescio]

11 minutes ago, Mr.lie said:

Correct, i'll stop.

You can make pull requests to the Han China, Thracians, and other mods.

Just don't waste your time on the Terra Magna mod directly.

[Lion.Kanzen]

that's why we don't add many civs is hard make a maintenance. 

[Mr.lie]

On 7/19/2020 at 5:03 PM, Nescio said:

If you happen to know how to fix it, feel free to make a pull request

Just done ...

[Nescio]

11 hours ago, Mr.lie said:

Just done ...

Thanks! I believe it's incomplete, though.

You don't have to post here on the forums whenever you make or update a pull request on https://github.com/0ADMods , you can just ping Stan (@StanleySweet) over there; for the Han China mod you can also ping me (@Nescio0). It's best to keep the discussion in a single place, i.e. in the pull request conversation.

[Mr.lie]

3 minutes ago, Nescio said:

I believe it's incomplete, though

What do you mean?

And how do i "ping"?

[Nescio]

Just now, Mr.lie said:

What do you mean?

https://github.com/0ADMods/han_china/pull/22

Just now, Mr.lie said:

And how do i "ping"?

Type the at sign followed by the github username (e.g. @StanleySweet, @Nescio0) in the pull request conversation.

[Mr.lie]

Sorry, i've just read your mail. There is no file anywhere which point to "han_chariot.xml" or "chariot.xml". Therefore i've needed so much time to find out what causes this error. The related "*.dae" files only looked for the content i.e. "skeleton id", "bone name" etc. So, in my opinion, you can rename the "chariot.xml"  at will. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

[Nescio]

23 minutes ago, Mr.lie said:

Sorry, i've just read your mail. There is no file anywhere which point to "han_chariot.xml" or "chariot.xml". Therefore i've needed so much time to find out what causes this error. The related "*.dae" files only looked for the content i.e. "skeleton id", "bone name" etc. So, in my opinion, you can rename the "chariot.xml"  at will. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

No need to apologize, I just replied to both your pull requests on github only this morning.

If just renaming would be sufficient, then I assumed we might as well delete the file. I tried that and it doesn't work. Currently with the Han China mod the Han chariot works, but those from the public mod don't; deleting the Han skeleton causes those from the public mod to work again, but then the Han chariot has errors:

ERROR: art/meshes/structural/han_chariot.dae: Assertion not satisfied (line 393): failed requirement "recognised skeleton structure"

ERROR: Could not load mesh 'art/meshes/structural/han_chariot.dae'

ERROR: CObjectEntry::BuildVariation(): Model art/meshes/structural/han_chariot.dae failed to load

I assumed this means you're missing files. However, after seeing your latest post I tried your suggestion (renaming it) and you're right, it does solve the errors, both from the public chariots and the Han chariot. So somehow the file is used, but without specifying its file name. Which again proves I don't really understand how the art folder works.

Anyway, I've now merged your pull request. You can delete your github branch, if you like.

[Nescio]

The perfect solution, of course, would be to redesign and reanimate the Han chariot, using the much newer assets from the public mod. However, I believe only @Alexandermb is experienced enough to do that properly.

Ideally we need two Chinese war chariots, for champions a biga (two-horsed light chariot):

Spoiler

And for heroes a quadriga (four-horsed heavy chariot):

Spoiler

[Mr.lie]

1 minute ago, Nescio said:

The perfect solution, of course, would be to redesign and reanimate the Han chariot, using the much newer assets from the public mod

Absolute. I've tried to fix the broken "death" animation on the Han chariot with adding this lines

        <animation file="mechanical/chariot_death.dae" name="Death" id="death1" speed="100"/>
        <animation file="mechanical/chariot_death.dae" name="Death" id="death2" speed="100"/>

to the actor file, but it ended with the known error about missing bones etc. So, without changing the the meshes and/or animations the animation "death" still will be broken.

 

15 minutes ago, Nescio said:

If just renaming would be sufficient, then I assumed we might as well delete the file. I tried that and it doesn't work. Currently with the Han China mod the Han chariot works, but those from the public mod don't; deleting the Han skeleton causes those from the public mod to work again, but then the Han chariot has errors:

ERROR: art/meshes/structural/han_chariot.dae: Assertion not satisfied (line 393): failed requirement "recognised skeleton structure"

ERROR: Could not load mesh 'art/meshes/structural/han_chariot.dae'

ERROR: CObjectEntry::BuildVariation(): Model art/meshes/structural/han_chariot.dae failed to load

Excactly the same you can read in "Issues with Chariot #20" on the mod "han_china"

[Stan`]

That's because I did not reuse the same armature when making the Han Chariot, for importing such an armature was broken then. I should have the file somewhere. The reason it never really showed up is because I was told chariots were out of phase and as such should only be an eyecandy unit.

[Nescio]

5 minutes ago, Stan` said:

That's because I did not reuse the same armature when making the Han Chariot, for importing such an armature was broken then. I should have the file somewhere. The reason it never really showed up is because I was told chariots were out of phase and as such should only be an eyecandy unit.

You mean historically?

Spoked-wheel war chariots spread throughout most of Eurasia during the Bronze Age (second millennium) and dominated the battlefields, and though declining in importance after the introduction of cavalry in the Iron Age (first millennium), they continued to be used in 0 A.D.'s timeframe. In China specifically chariot dominance peaked during the Spring and Autumn period (c. 771–481 or 403 BC; cf. Sun Tzu's The Art of War). During the Warring States period (c. 481 or 403–221 BC), massed infantry equipped with crossbows became a dominant army feature. Under the Qin (221–206 BC) and Early or Western Han (206 BC – AD 9) war chariots were gradually superseded by cavalry, though they continued to exist and be used on the battlefield, both chariot archers and chariot crossbowmen, as attested by numerous depictions, archaeological remains, and textual evidence. Under the Later or Eastern Han (AD 25–220) the situation was different, but that's outside 0 A.D.'s timeframe anyway.

(I'd also like to see a Kushite chariot archer, as well as the addition of both bigae and quadrigae for Carthage, which are well attested, used on Sicily until the 3rd C BC, and probably longer by various Libyan tribes in North Africa. I believe I've requested them more than once elsewhere on these forums, but I agree it's a low priority.)

[Sundiata]

42 minutes ago, Stan` said:

The reason it never really showed up is because I was told chariots were out of phase and as such should only be an eyecandy unit.

 

15 minutes ago, Nescio said:

You mean historically?

Spoked-wheel war chariots spread throughout most of Eurasia during the Bronze Age (second millennium) and dominated the battlefields, and though declining in importance after the introduction of cavalry in the Iron Age (first millennium), they continued to be used in 0 A.D.'s timeframe. In China specifically chariot dominance peaked during the Spring and Autumn period (c. 771–481 or 403 BC; cf. Sun Tzu's The Art of War). During the Warring States period (c. 481 or 403–221 BC), massed infantry equipped with crossbows became a dominant army feature. Under the Qin (221–206 BC) and Early or Western Han (206 BC – AD 9) war chariots were gradually superseded by cavalry, though they continued to exist and be used on the battlefield, both chariot archers and chariot crossbowmen, as attested by numerous depictions, archaeological remains, and textual evidence. Under the Later or Eastern Han (AD 25–220) the situation was different, but that's outside 0 A.D.'s timeframe anyway.

(I'd also like to see a Kushite chariot archer, as well as the addition of both bigae and quadrigae for Carthage, which are well attested, used on Sicily until the 3rd C BC, and probably longer by various Libyan tribes in North Africa. I believe I've requested them more than once elsewhere on these forums, but I agree it's a low priority.)

^ What he said.

I've made the same argument about the Chinese chariots before.

5 Primary Han Chinese references of chariot/carriages and and one Osprey illustration:

Spoiler

 

Kushites not having chariots was just a compromise because they already had a very diverse roster. Personally, I don't think it matters if one faction has many different and diverse, but mediocre units, while another faction has fewer, but more specialized, tanky units. It lends to different styles of play, which increases the replayability of the game, rather than it feeling like every roster is a watered down version made to conform to rigid framework. Our factions/civilzations/cultures are too diverse. Rather than pigeonholing these factions, we should further explore and exploit this diversity between the factions. 

[Nescio]

7 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

^ What he said.

I've made the same argument about the Chinese chariots before.

5 Primary Han Chinese references of chariot/carriages and and one Osprey illustration:

Most of the images you showed are actually travel chariots, not war chariots. I should probably have made that distinction in my previous post. Chariot warfare largely disappeared by the 1st C BC (1st C AD in Great Britain), except in India, but travel chariots continued to be used for centuries in Europe. In Qin and Han China, numerous types of non-war chariots existed, and under the Han the two-beam-one-horse chariot was invented (as opposed to the traditional single-beam-two-or-four-horses), which continued to be used in China for the next two millennia in several shapes and forms.

15 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

Kushites not having chariots was just a compromise because they already had a very diverse roster. Personally, I don't think it matters if one faction has many different and diverse, but mediocre units, while another faction has fewer, but more specialized, tanky units. It lends to different styles of play, which increases the replayability of the game, rather than it feeling like every roster is a watered down version made to conform to rigid framework. Our factions/civilzations/cultures are too diverse. Rather than pigeonholing these factions, we should further explore and exploit this diversity between the factions. 

It's especially a pity because in my opinion the Kushites have the only good-looking chariot in 0 A.D., but it's reserved for a hero. It shouldn't be too difficult to make the clothes and colours less fancy and replace the warrior with the existing champion archer?

[Sundiata]

35 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Most of the images you showed are actually travel chariots, not war chariots.

The first two reliefs each depict a chariot with an axeman carrying a huge battle axe and each of the chariots is further equipped with at least two spears. I can't easily make out weapons in the chariot depicted in the third relief, but it's accompanied by an infantry spearman. The following two chariot/carriages are just added to give more examples of such vehicles in Han China. 

[Nescio]

2 hours ago, Sundiata said:

The first two reliefs each depict a chariot with an axeman carrying a huge battle axe and each of the chariots is further equipped with at least two spears. I can't easily make out weapons in the chariot depicted in the third relief, but it's accompanied by an infantry spearman. The following two chariot/carriages are just added to give more examples of such vehicles in Han China. 

Yes, the first two are. Anyway, I was not criticizing, merely pointing out that not every chariot is a war chariot.

(Also, the “huge battle axe” is actually a halberd, i.e. a two-handed pole arm. In Sun Tzu's world (5th C BC), chariots had three men: a charioteer (driver), noble (archer), and servant (with a gē (dagger-axe pole arm), in case enemies got to close); although weapons had evolved under the Han, the continuity is striking nonetheless.)