0 A.D. A24 gameplay patches

[hyperion]

Once upon a time camels were slow, towers out ranged archers and were stronger(?) and the cost of slinger and mercenaries really did hurt. Ptolemeus were pitifully weak, then became stronger and stronger each iteration and in the end it's about the cost of some buildings which break balance? Btw, as far as I'm aware people still usually claim Britons are the strongest.

If people often play Ptolemeus, either it's because it's all about winning (guess this is true for a minority) and Ptolemeus are strong or because they consider the distinct play style fun. The Xiongu(?) from TM are the only other one which are truly distinct. The slight difference for the Celtic factions was canned as well IIRC.

 

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

While sun-dried mud-bricks were used for walls, they still need roofs, doors, furniture, and firewood.

So it should cost 67 stone 6 wood and 3 metal. Let's fix all other "buggy" resource costs while at it! While I disagree with @borg- I at least consider his a valid point.

[Grapjas]

21 minutes ago, hyperion said:

Once upon a time camels were slow

I like this. If you calculate camel top speed vs horse top speed irl a camel would be about 25% slower. 

26 minutes ago, hyperion said:

and the cost of slinger and mercenaries really did hurt.

I like this too. But because you hire mercs they shouldnt cost food/wood in my opinion, just raise the stone/metal price. Even though most people think slingers are OP, i think the balance between archers/slingers/skirmishers is nearly perfect in itself. It's the army with the better mix (or straight up fantasy heal spam) or micro that often comes out on top. 

[hyperion]

Camels speed was around 13 and horses around 17 which "makes perfect sense". Haha. Well I stop from further harping on this "sense" thing, I think I got my point across by now.

I forgot before to mention pikemen were horribly slow, harming economy and were left in the dust by rams.

Well the game gets optimized for midland with temperate biome, so high stone and metal cost becomes an issue. Only food and wood is abundant there. So a merc can't cost 100 metal unless you have enough alternative units to choose from.

[Grapjas]

1 hour ago, hyperion said:

Well the game gets optimized for midland with temperate biome, so high stone and metal cost becomes an issue. Only food and wood is abundant there. So a merc can't cost 100 metal unless you have enough alternative units to choose from.

Well you are still able to trade though. Also might be an idea to start the prices relatively low for mercs, then increase the price a little each time that unit gets "bought" all the way up to a certain (expensive) limit. 

1 hour ago, hyperion said:

I forgot before to mention pikemen were horribly slow, harming economy and were left in the dust by rams.

I dont know how slow they were, but they are still painfully slow though. Which is fine to me considering how tanky they are

Edited January 17, 2021 by Grapjas

[Nescio]

In principle anyone can propose changes to the game and upload differentials to https://code.wildfiregames.com/

As for mercenary costs, they have been changed recently: https://code.wildfiregames.com/rP24635

 On 13/01/2021 at 9:44 PM, hyperion said:

The slight difference for the Celtic factions was canned as well IIRC.

Britons and Gauls still have a 20% discount on structure building time, which is a great economic bonus, especially in the early game.

Gauls have received +10% cavalry melee attack damage, an extra grain gather technology in the town phase, and a new structure in the city phase, the assembly, where they can train their heroes and a new carnyx-trumpeter, which has a local aura, lowering enemy attack damage.

 On 13/01/2021 at 9:44 PM, hyperion said:

towers out ranged archers

They did in A23 and still do in A24.

On 13/01/2021 at 9:44 PM, hyperion said:

Once upon a time camels were slow

On 13/01/2021 at 10:17 PM, Grapjas said:

I like this. If you calculate camel top speed vs horse top speed irl a camel would be about 25% slower. 

On 17/01/2021 at 11:18 AM, hyperion said:

Camels speed was around 13 and horses around 17 which "makes perfect sense". Haha. Well I stop from further harping on this "sense" thing, I think I got my point across by now.

So I'm not sure what you're referring to. In 0 A.D. camels are just cavalry, always have been.

I've actually proposed separating camels ( https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2900 ) as well as chariots ( https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2965 ) from cavalry; the main objection seems to be they would no longer benefit from cavalry technologies.

For what's worth, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel_racing writes:

Camels can run at speeds up to 65 km/h (18 m/s; 40 mph) in short sprints and they can maintain a speed of 40 km/h (11 m/s; 25 mph) for an hour.

Whereas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_gait#Gallop writes horses can maintain their top speed of 40 to 50 km/h for only a few kilometres i.e. a few minutes at most. If we trust Wikipedia on this, then camels should realistically be much faster than horses.

0 A.D. is a historically-inspired fantasy game, though, and gameplay trumps realism.

[Grapjas]

16 minutes ago, Nescio said:

For what's worth, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel_racing writes:

Camels can run at speeds up to 65 km/h (18 m/s; 40 mph) in short sprints and they can maintain a speed of 40 km/h (11 m/s; 25 mph) for an hour.

Whereas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_gait#Gallop writes horses can maintain their top speed of 40 to 50 km/h for only a few kilometres i.e. a few minutes at most. If we trust Wikipedia on this, then camels should realistically be much faster than horses.

You are comparing a gallop vs sprint though. A horse can sprint around 80-88 km/h. Which is about ~25% faster than a camel sprint. And obviously the horse has alot more stamina but thats irrelevant for the game.

17 minutes ago, Nescio said:

0 A.D. is a historically-inspired fantasy game, though, and gameplay trumps realism.

Well how a game plays is rather subjective. The other prefers realism, the other balance. Either way, making camels slower is more accurate, and balances them well. I dont think you should bend reality just because its a game but rather only if its the last resort to making a solution. Breaking immersion with unneccessary fantasy elements can be a deal breaker to people. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

How much of this is still unapplied, how much of this needs conceptual revision?.

We have to apply a filter so that incomplete ideas do not arrive to main game and start controversy (A24 example).