Specific Name Review: Structures

[Nescio]

10 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Agora on the other hand is pointless since it means 'assembly' and in absolute monarchies assemblies are completely pointless. If citizens were to 'assemble' in a city ruled by an absolute monarch, I think I can guess pretty quickly what would happen to them.

Yes, it means assembly, but also place of assembly and market-place. In Hellenistic times, many Near Eastern cities were refounded as Greek settlements, typically with an agora. (In contrast, royal palaces were usually limited to the capital(s).) The agora no longer had the political function it had in the Athenian democracy, but it continued to be the centre of public life, where citizens would meet, business was conducted, the latest news spread, announcements were made, people would look for customers, work, servants, artists, philosophers, etc. Its Roman equivalent is the forum, the centre of every Roman settlement founded during the Roman Empire.

10 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Ergastḗrion Polémou is a nice expression from an actual writer of the period.

Is it? Ergastḗrion Polémou (workshop of war) sounded artificial to me; τό μηχάνημα (machine, mechanical devise, especially engine of war, used in sieges) and ἡ μηχᾰνοποιΐα (construction of engines of war) are not accompanied by πολέμου; but if it's indeed attested in combination with ἐργαστήριον, then I won't object. Could you give the exact location?

10 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Concerning the archery range.

I believe this structure was only added because Age of Empires had one; it is available for mods, but not used in the default distribution; I hope that stays this way. Anyway, now it is included, it needs an appropiate name. It's probably not reserved exclusively for archery, but also for other ranged weapons, such as javelins. Perhaps this might be useful:

τὸ δ᾽ ἑξῆς τούτοις, οἰκοδομίαι μὲν εἴρηνται γυμνασίων ἅμα καὶ διδασκαλείων κοινῶν τριχῇ κατὰ μέσην τὴν πόλιν, ἔξωθεν δὲ ἵππων αὖ τριχῇ περὶ τὸ ἄστυ γυμνάσιά τε καὶ εὐρυχώρια, τοξικῆς τε καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἀκροβολισμῶν ἕνεκα διακεκοσμημένα, μαθήσεώς τε ἅμα καὶ μελέτης τῶν νέων

To pursue our subject,—we have described buildings for public gymnasia as well as schools in three divisions within the city, and also in three divisions round about the City training-grounds and race-courses for horses, arranged for archery and other long-distance shooting, and for the teaching and practicing of the youth

— Plato Laws 7.804c (translation R. G. Bury 1967)

ἡ εὐρυχωρία (open space) is not perfect, but seems more appropiate than “arsenal”.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Nescio
ce

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Nescio]

1 hour ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Of course I will counter that the civic centre should be the centre of civic life, which is where the power resides. There was a square and marketplace but it was not the civic centre, there was no assembly but a representative of the king, and all important decisions generally had to pass by that representative in Seleucid and Ptolemaic settlements.

The individual satrapies had each their regional basileion, as the representative royal palace in which the satrap resided, such as the Seleucid satrapal basileion one of which is described by Polybios (10.31.5): συστησάμενος δὲ τὴν πορείαν ὡς ἐβούλετο καὶ παραγενόμενος ἐπὶ Τάμβρακα, πόλιν ἀτείχιστον, ἔχουσαν δὲ βασίλεια καὶ μέγεθος, αὐτοῦ κατεσκήνωσε. 

To clarify, I'm not disputing political power was in the hands of the monarch and his representative(s); sure, royal palaces certainly did exist; I'm merely questioning whether a royal palace would be the most appropiate choice to represent the core of any settlement, not just a capital but also a village or minor town. In 0 A.D. the civic center is basically a structure with territory root where you can drop off resources, train basic citizens, and garrison units.

Also, satrapies can be best compared to EU member states; the Persian Empire had slightly under 30 satrapies; the Seleucids controlled at one point over half of those, but in the end were reduced to just one, Syria, which became a Roman province in 63 BC.

1 hour ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Regarding war factory as ΠΟΛΕΜΟΥ ΕΡΓΑΣΤΗΡΙΟΝ see Xenophon

Thanks, found it:

ἀξίαν δὲ καὶ ὅλην τὴν πόλιν ἐν ᾗ ἦν τὴν Ἔφεσον θέας ἐποίησεν: ἥ τε γὰρ ἀγορὰ ἦν μεστὴ παντοδαπῶν καὶ ἵππων καὶ ὅπλων ὠνίων, οἵ τε χαλκοτύποι καὶ οἱ τέκτονες καὶ οἱ χαλκεῖς καὶ οἱ σκυτοτόμοι καὶ οἱ ζωγράφοι πάντες πολεμικὰ ὅπλα κατεσκεύαζον, ὥστε τὴν πόλιν ὄντως οἴεσθαι πολέμου ἐργαστήριον εἶναι.

In fact, he made the entire city, where he was staying, a sight worth seeing; for the market was full of all sorts of horses and weapons, offered for sale, and the copper-workers, carpenters, smiths, leather-cutters, and painters were all engaged in making martial weapons, so that one might have thought that the city was really a workshop of war.

— Xenophon Hellenica 3.4.17 (translated by C. L. Brownson 1918)

In other words, Xenophon does not specifically mean a workshop where siege engines are manufactured, he coins the phrase here to describe the state of affairs in the entire city, much in the same way modern historians used the words “war machine” to describe the US economy as a whole during the Second World War.

1 hour ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

εὐρυχωρία, yes we can go down that lane too! but didn't you just ask me to specify stathmos because it was too generic and could be used for anything??.

But we could make it an "open space for (of (the)) archers".

Yes, something like that; I suppose it depends on how one interpretes the “archery range”:

• a place to train and practice archery
• a place for archers to be housed
• a place to store weapons
• something else?

I'm inclined to go for the first option, hence my suggestion.

1 hour ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Let us strike some compromises, consider the merits of the basileion especially: I would give up the Ergasterion Polemou and the Arsenal ideas, to me from a historical viewpoint the basileion is most important for accuracy.

It's not a negotiation, the purpose of this thread is simply to find the most suitable strings for the specific names in game, not to win an argument or something.

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Genava55]

gaul_barracks.xml, Coriosedlon, "Seat of the army" (personal construction)

gaul_blacksmith.xml, Gobanion, Blacksmith

gaul_civil_centre.xml, Lissos, Palace or royal residence

gaul_corral.xml, Cagion, Corral

gaul_defense_tower.xml, Uxelon, "High-place" or "high-building" (personal construction)

gaul_dock.xml, Counos, Dock

gaul_farmstead.xml, Buta, Farmstead, barn or pigsty

gaul_field.xml, Olca, Field

gaul_fortress.xml, Dunon, Fortress

gaul_house.xml, Tegia, House

gaul_market.xml, Magos, Market

gaul_outpost.xml, Antosolicon, "which-watches-the-border" (personal construction)

**gaul_range.xml, Budinadon, "Field of the troop" (personal construction)

gaul_rotarymill.xml, Brauon, Mill

gaul_sentry_tower.xml, Uxelon, "High-place" or "high-building" (personal construction)

**gaul_stable.xml, Eposton, Stables

gaul_storehouse.xml, Capanon, Storehouse or hut

gaul_tavern.xml, -, Tavern

gaul_temple.xml, Nemeton, Sanctuary

gaul_wall_gate.xml, Duoricos, Gate

gaul_wall_long.xml, Rate, Wall

gaul_wall_medium.xml, Rate, Wall

gaul_wall_short.xml, Rate, Wall

gaul_wall_tower.xml, Uxelon, "High-place" or "high-building" (personal construction)

gaul_wallset_stone.xml, Rate, Wall

gaul_wonder.xml, Stonehenge, Wonder

**gaul_workshop.xml, Miletucerdon, "Workshop-for-the-destruction" or "Workshop-for-the-war" (personal construction)

brit_barracks.xml, Coriosessa, "Seat of the army" (personal construction, variant with a more common root in Brythonic)

brit_blacksmith.xml, Gobanion, Blacksmith

brit_civil_centre.xml, Tigernotreba, Habitat of the ruler/lord (personal construction)

brit_corral.xml, Cagion, Corral

brit_crannog.xml, Cranogion, Island Settlement

brit_defense_tower.xml, Uxelon, "High-place" or "high-building" (personal construction)

brit_dock.xml, Counos, Dock

brit_farmstead.xml, Buta, Farmstead, barn or pigsty

brit_field.xml, Olca, Field

brit_fortress.xml, Dunon, Fortress

brit_house.xml, Tegia, House

brit_kennel.xml, Cunattegia, "hut of the dog" (personal construction)

brit_market.xml, Magos, Market

brit_outpost.xml, Antosolicon, "which-watches-the-border" (personal construction)

**brit_range.xml, Budinadon, "Field of the troop" (personal construction)

brit_rotarymill.xml, Melonas, Mill

brit_sentry_tower.xml, Uxelon, "High-place" or "high-building" (personal construction)

**brit_stable.xml, Eposton, Stables

brit_storehouse.xml, Capanon, Storehouse or hut

brit_temple.xml, Nemeton, Sanctuary

brit_wall_gate.xml, Duoricos, Gate

brit_wall_long.xml, Rate, Wall

brit_wall_medium.xml, Rate, Wall

brit_wall_short.xml, Rate, Wall

brit_wall_tower.xml, Uxelon, "High-place" or "high-building" (personal construction)

brit_wallset_stone.xml, Rate, Wall

brit_wonder.xml, Stonehenge, Wonder

**brit_workshop.xml, Miletucerdon, "Workshop-for-the-destruction" or "Workshop-for-the-war" (personal construction)

 

Proposal:

Gaul: Feast-center, Celicnon "Feast sanctuary"

Gaul: Hemicycle, Remogantion "assembly of the princes" (personal construction)

Gaul: Monument, Mediolanon "Central place"

Briton: Comardrigantion "assembly of the comrade of the high-king" (personal construction)

Briton: Monument, Cantalon "Circular monument"

 

I use mostly the Delamarre’s dictionary of the Gaulish language. But honestly, I have to made up some words because they are not known or they haven't existed at all. I try to avoid the most possible to build some name from different words but I haven't the choice sometimes. I didn't translate the taverne because the whole idea of a taverne as something characteristic of the Gauls bothers me. I suggested new buildings but it is up the team to accept it or not.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Genava55

[Nescio]

19 hours ago, Genava55 said:

I use mostly the Delamarre’s dictionary of the Gaulish language. But honestly, I have to made up some words because they are not known or they haven't existed at all. I try to avoid the most possible to build some name from different words but I haven't the choice sometimes. I didn't translate the taverne because the whole idea of a taverne as something characteristic of the Gauls bothers me. I suggested new buildings but it is up the team to accept it or not.

Thank you, that list looks useful! A word for kennel is missing, but otherwise I think your suggestions can be committed; that's for the team (@Itms?) to decide, though.

Out of curiosity, which of those words are attested and which ones were reconstructed? And are they all the same language (Gaulish)? Literal translations would also be nice to have, e.g.:

blacksmith: ὁ χαλκεών (forge, smithy)

Furthermore, could you list your sources, for future reference?

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Genava55]

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

Out of curiosity, which of those words are attested and which ones were reconstructed? And are they all the same language (Gaulish)? Literal translations would also be nice to have, e.g.: 

I edited the previous message. More precisely, the language is the continental p-Celtic mostly based on the Gaulish but with some inclusions of the Brythonic which is thought to be very close at this time (pre-Roman era).

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

Furthermore, could you list your sources, for future reference? 

The whole references for each word and each roots?

[Nescio]

2 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

@Nescio Are we nearing a submittable solution to our three little apples o' strife?

I would like to get to work on the units - we'd need a similar list, and here the research seems to be a lot better, almost only transcription inconsistencies as far as I can see. (It now mostly looks to me like as if a native Greek earlier on, had been advising the forum that his demotic were "correct" ancient Greek, and then proceeded to change all the correct transcriptions into wrong demotic ones?)

I did promise to do a lot of stuff in my original thread, and this is only one of them, so I had better get to work fulfilling the promises. We have some voices need recordin' and some Ptolemies need hellenizin' - if you will excuse my Nubian.

Before anything Greek can be committed, first some clear decisions have to be made about the transliteration, see https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/25202-transliteration-of-ancient-greek-into-english/

But you can start checking and correcting the specific names of Greek units, if you like; see

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/25284-specific-name-review-units/

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

I edited the previous message. More precisely, the language is the continental p-Celtic mostly based on the Gaulish but with some inclusions of the Brythonic which is thought to be very close at this time (pre-Roman era).

Thank you! Could you check D1757 ?

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

The whole references for each word and each roots? 

Just a list of books, articles, webpages etc. you've used, to provide a starting point if people want to check something or find new words in the future.

[Genava55]

19 hours ago, Nescio said:

Thank you! Could you check D1757 ?

Seems correct to me, only the name missing for binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/template_structure_special_rotarymill.xml

[Nescio]

3 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Seems correct to me, only the name missing for binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/templates/template_structure_special_rotarymill.xml

That's intentional, specific names do not belong in generic parent templates, only in civilization-specific children (in this case structures/brit_rotarymill.xml and structures/gaul_rotarymill.xml, as it should be).

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Any ideas what the Gauls and Britons would call a statue or cult image? Thinking of Delenda Est's Cult Statue building, where units praise and gather the Glory resource.

Edited January 25, 2019 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Genava55]

6 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Any ideas what the Gauls and Britons would call a statue? Thinking of Delenda Est's Cult Statue building, where units praise and gather the Glory resource.

This is a hard one. If I do a backward construction from the Irish "dealbh", it should be something like "deluos".

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Stan`]

Can you edit your post to only have the greek names, use spoilers by civ, thanks ?

Each civ should have one differential  

[Nescio]

Please reread earlier posts in this thread to avoid missing relevant points.

On 6/26/2019 at 11:31 AM, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

With the standard now adopted HERE IS THE FINAL LIST to be submitted - I am open for last challenges and a bit of discussion here.

• τό στρατέγιον means “general's tent”, which is why I recommended ἡ στρατοπεδεία, ἡ στρατοπέδευσις, or ἡ στρατόπεδον “encampment” instead for the barracks
• using ἀγορά for the civic centre off all Greek factions for consistency and reserving βᾰσίλειον for a future palace structure is sensible.
• elephant stable with τῶν ἐλεφᾰ́ντων, as discussed earlier
• the practice range is not limited to archery exclusively, slingers and javelineers are trained there too, therefore we probably should use ψῑλοί “light troops” (i.e. ranged infantry) instead, e.g. ἡ στρατοπεδεία τῶν ψῑλῶν
• towers could be differentiated with the use of (attested) diminutives:
  • wall tower: ὁ πύργος
  • defence tower: τό πυργίον
  • small tower: τό πυργίδιον
• as for the workshop, ὁ μηχᾰνητής “siege engineer” is a person/unit, therefore inappropiate for a place/structure; unless we can find a better alternative, I strongly recommend to stick with τό ἐργαστήριον “workshop”
  • maybe we should try looking into a different direction. τό κέστρειον is probably a bit obscure, though

On 6/26/2019 at 11:48 AM, Stan` said:

Can you edit your post to only have the greek names, use spoilers by civ, thanks ? 

Each civ should have one differential   

Actually it could be done once for all Greek factions; updated earlier post:

Spoiler

On 1/19/2019 at 11:27 PM, Nescio said:

For future reference:

  barracks:             τό στρατόπεδον (camp, encampment)
  blacksmith:            ὁ χαλκεών (forge, smithy)
  civic centre:          ἡ ἀγορά (place of assembly, market-place)
  corral:                ὁ ἔπαυλος (fold for cattle at night)
  council chamber:      τό πρυτανεῖον (the magistrates' hall, town hall)
  dock:                  ὁ λῐμήν (harbour)
  elephant stable:       ὁ σταθμός τῶν ἐλεφάντων (standing place for elephants)
  farmstead:            τό ἐποίκιον (outhouse, farmstead)
  field:                 ὁ ἀγρός (field)
  fortress:             τό φρούριον (fort, citadel, hill-fort)
  gymnasium:            τό γυμνάσιον (gymnastic school)
  hellenic royal stoa:   ἡ στοά (roofed colonnade, cloister; storehouse, magazine)
  house:                 ὁ οἶκος (house, dwelling-place)
  library:               ἡ βιβλιοθήκη (bookcase; library, collection of books; record-office, registry)
  lighthouse:            ὁ φάρος (lighthouse)
  market:               τό ἐμπόριον (trading-station, mart, factory; market-centre)
  mercenary camp:        ἡ στρατοπέδευσις τῶν μισθοφόρων (mercenary camp)
  military colony:       ἡ κληρουχία (apportionment of land in a foreign country among citizens)
  palace:               τό βᾰσίλειον (kingly dwelling, palace; seat of empire, capital; royal treasury)
  range:                 ἡ στρατοπεδεία τῶν ψῑλῶν
  stable:                ὁ ἱππών (place for horses, stable)
  storehouse:            ἡ ἀποθήκη (any place wherein to lay up a thing, magazine, storehouse)
  temple:                ὁ νᾱός (temple; inmost part of a temple, shrine)
  theatre:              τό θέᾱτρον (place for seeing, especially for dramatic representation, theatre)
  outpost:              τό προφύλαγμα (outpost)
  sentry tower:         τό πυργίδιον (diminutive of πύργος)
  defence tower:        τό πυργίον (diminutive of πύργος)
  wall tower:            ὁ πύργος (tower, especially such as were attached to the walls of a city)
  wall gate:            αἱ πύλαι (gates of a town)
  wall:                 τό τεῖχος (wall, especially city-wall)
  (siege) workshop:     τό ἐργαστήριον (any place in which work is done, workshop, manufactury)

 

 

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Nescio]

LSJ writes κέστρειον, not κέστεριον; probably too obscure, though; I only suggested it because ἐργαστήριον isn't perfect either. Whilst I agree looking for a Greek equivalent of arsenal makes sense, I'm not yet fully convinced ὁπλοτήκη “armoury” is what we want for the workshop; the word itself suggests shields etc. for melee infantry and the last excerpt given (Appian) implies they where separate from the war machines. There are probably more appropiate Greek terms somewhere. Maybe Polybius has something useful?

10 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Anything else?

Yes: the wonders. The Parthenon makes sense for the Athenians, but not really for Macedon and Sparta, therefore they should be given different names. I vaguely recall there was a large and important Artemis sanctuary in Lakedaimon; I don't know about Macedon, maybe a Zeus temple?

For the Ptolemies, I've no objections to your suggestion to rename the temple of Edfu (Apollonopolis), interpretatio graeca was widespread. For the Seleucids, theirs was dedicated to the Pythian Apollo.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

At one point it was desired to make the palace at Pella into the Macedonian wonder, if a bit embellished and fancified. 

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Questions. I am no linguist. Would Synergeion Poliorkias work for siege workshop? Toxobolia for Archery Range doesn't work? What would be a good word for a large cult statue? For instance, such as the cult image of Athena within the Parthenon or the bronze Athena Promachus atop the acropolis? Lastly, what would be a good word for a military shipyard or harbor (Neoreion perhaps?)? Something for warships, separate from a commercial dock or harbor. Thank you.

Edited June 29, 2019 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 6/26/2019 at 5:31 AM, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

spart_wonder.xml, Naos Parthenōn, Wonder ΝΑΟΣ ΠΑΡΘΕΝΩΝ

I think this is supposed to be the Sanctuary of Artemis.

[Nescio]

On 6/27/2019 at 11:37 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

At one point it was desired to make the palace at Pella into the Macedonian wonder, if a bit embellished and fancified. 

19 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

We will continue that discussion in the wonders thread - for now be so kind please and choose some fitting names for the current wonder models.

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I think this is supposed to be the Sanctuary of Artemis.

Yes, but what might be done in the future is irrelevant. The current specific names ought to be based on the current wonders. How about the following?

• athen: temple of Athena Parthenos
• mace: temple of Olympian Zeus
• ptol: temple of Apollo
• sele: temple of Pythian Apollo
• spart:temple of Artemis Orthia

19 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

I will spend the next week looking through Polybios then.....

Only if you want to; it's a suggestion, not an obligation; ergasterion “workshop” isn't perfect but does work.

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Questions. I am no linguist. Would Synergeion Poliorkias work for siege workshop? Toxobolia for Archery Range doesn't work?

As for synergeion poliorkias, πολῐορκία means “siege of a city”, but συνέργειον = συνέργιον = συνεργᾰσία means “company or guild of fellow workmen” or “a place where many slaves are lodged, a workers' barracks”; thus not exactly what you mean, probably.

Toxobolia is not an option, because the practice range is not limited to archery only; javelineers and slingers are trained there as well; and because τοξοβόλια is unattested. Where did you find it? No modern Greek, I hope?

2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Lastly, what would be a good word for a military shipyard or harbor (Neoreion perhaps?)? Something for warships, separate from a commercial dock or harbor. Thank you. 

Hear are some terms you could consider:

• τό ἐμπόριον emporion: trading-station, also commercial port
• ὁ λῐμήν limēn: harbour
• ὁ λῐμήν κλειστός limēn kleistos: walled harbour
• τό ναυπεγεῖον naupegeion: shipyard
• τό ναυπέγιον naupegion: shipbuilder's yard, dockyard
• τό νεώριον neōrion: dockyard
  • nāvālia in Latin
• ὁ νεώσοικος neōsoikos: dock, shipshed, slip, boathouse
• ὁ ὅρμος hormos: mooring place, dock, anchorage
• ἡ σκευοθήκη skeuothēkē: chest for all kinds of σκευή [equipment]; arsenal; shed for storing sails, masts, oars, etc.