===[TASK]=== Removing all carpets from the game

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Stan`]

Do you mean for Ptolemies or the whole game ?

Currently those egyptian buildings have carpets

Ptol-Blacksmith
Ptol-Dock
Ptol-Market
Ptol-Mercenary Camp
Ptol-Shooting Range

Kush-Range

[Sundiata]

We shouldn't rush to remove all carpets from the game, as the title of this thread says. Although they were definitely a status symbol (those types of carpets still are), they were definitely known as far as Greece. To what extent they were present is difficult to gage, but it's a fair assumption that they were rare. Reed mats would have been far more common, and are probably more appropriate for those Ptolemaic (and other) rooftops. The thing is that reed mats can be highly decorative (even colored) as well. 

The second point is that Pazyryk rug is dated to the 5th Century BC, and was already highly developed, showing strong similarity to later, and even modern carpets from the Middle East. Carpets are made from organic materials which don't preserve well at all, making it very difficult to make absolute statements about how common or not they were. The only reason the Pazyryk rug was preserved so well is because it was found frozen in ice, in Siberia! Another testimony of how widely they were traded (originally believed to be from Armenia). 

If the carpet was really manufactured in Armenia in 5th century BC, then those types of carpets were being woven in the Persian satrapy of Armenia, and the later Hellenistic Kingdom of Armenia as well... These carpets were woven on a crossroad between East and West... Plenty of nomadic traders around to spread them far and wide, such as the Scythians.   

To summarise: replacing carpets with reed mats for common structures is not a bad idea. Don't remove carpets from elite structures like palaces and temples.  

Spoiler

I was actually using the Pazyryk rug for a personal project. I patched up the holes to make it look a little fresher, but even in it's original state it looks amazing. You'd never guess it's 2400 years old!

 

Edited January 8, 2019 by Sundiata

[Stan`]

So by something like this ?

[Sundiata]

@stanislas69, something similar...

Here are some examples of grass/reed mats from Ancient Egypt and the Levant, followed by some much more recent antique traditional Tuareg grass mats from Mauritania and Mali with color, to give you an idea of how colored versions of these mats may have looked like in the past. 

Spoiler

New Kingdom Dynasty 18 

 

New Kingdom Dynasty 18 

 

Woven grass or reed mat 500AD Byzantine Egypt

 

3500BC!

 

Traditional Tuareg reed/grass mats with color (just an example)

 

 

Edited January 8, 2019 by Sundiata

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Stan`]

Can you make a list ? The best would be screenshots with what to remove. But I guess the most annoying will be the ptolemies market. They have carpets everywhere.

[Andrettin]

On 1/8/2019 at 9:18 AM, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

So, except for the Pazyryk carpet, we have very little evidence of carpets in our period, certainly they were not common except amongst steppe horsemen. Herodotus mentions bright carpets, but they would have been extremely expensive and to be found rather inside royal palaces or superwealthy villas, certainly not in the possession of common citizens or on top of Egyptian rooftops.

I therefore suggest simply the removal of carpets. If you insist, add a quilt to a scythian rider, or one single carpet at a palace entrance. But the untidy "Ptolemaic" rooftops and archery ranges etc. with marquises and carpets and whatnot are Disney's Aladdin, not antiquity.

I'd love to help with design of some new buildings, just write .

IMO that is a pretty radical change to make without any sources being provided. Would you care to provide any?

Edited January 11, 2019 by Andrettin

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Andrettin]

On 1/11/2019 at 11:08 PM, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Dear friend, how could I provide sources to prove something's nonexistence? I invite you to read through all the sources referenced under the dictionaries for 'rug, carpet' - tapestries, tapetes, as it were - and see if you can find any evidence of woven or knotted carpets/rugs such as those referenced outside indoor palace or luxury contexts.

People always sat on skins, furs and mats/blankets. The question here is decorated "carpets" in our modern sense, which you find so many places now in the game around and on top of buildings, and which ought to be removed or corrected into mats. That bedspreads and woven blankets existed is a matter of course, aristocracy would have bought expensive imported or luxuriously executed rugs later, but since we never see the halls or bedchambers but only roofs of buildings these cannot be relevant. Putting expensive tapestries on the dirty roofs or ground would have been preposterous.

Read all the sources listed in the dictionaries on e.g. "perseus" and get an impression, if you would like to check the veracity of this: That is done in a few hours' and especially the iliad and odyssey are always worth it.

Academics discuss the nonexistence of things all the time, and in any case it should be perfectly possible to provide sources to at least corroborate what you just said on your second paragraph. "Go look it up on Perseus" is hardly proper sourcing, you didn't even say which entry there would contain the relevant information. In my opinion, since this is your suggestion, it's up to you to provide specific references, rather than asking others to invest hours in looking it up when asked for sources. I know this is a game forum, so academic rigor is not to be expected, but nevertheless references of some kind are still important, specially for suggestions that are supposed to improve historical accuracy.

There's also the question of artistic license. Sometimes it's ok to have a bit of (intentional) historical inaccuracy (or exaggeration) if it makes a building or unit more interesting, or more recognizable.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Andrettin

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Stan`]

1 hour ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

You, Sir, just seem to like to be right and quarrel in face of the conspicuuous. The subject "oriental carpets in hellenistic era" is easily answered, certainly as far as the game is concerned - I will not indulge you in silly waste of time. The Perseus dictionary reference is a polite service to you, because your understanding of antiquity is as insufficient as your post indicates.

Can we keep it civil please ?

The aim of this game is also to share knowledge. Also we don't know how long everyone will be there so having books to rely on when asked in the future is nice.

 

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Nescio]

3 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

You, Sir, just seem to like to be right and quarrel in face of the conspicuuous. [...] But some people seem to enjoy quarrelling for the sake of it.

Don't make yourself look childish. You want others to change something, your claim is challenged, and Andrettin politely asked for more information. The burden of proof is on you; shouting is not going to help.

12 hours ago, Andrettin said:

Academics discuss the nonexistence of things all the time, and in any case it should be perfectly possible to provide sources to at least corroborate what you just said on your second paragraph. "Go look it up on Perseus" is hardly proper sourcing, you didn't even say which entry there would contain the relevant information. In my opinion, since this is your suggestion, it's up to you to provide specific references, rather than asking others to invest hours in looking it up when asked for sources. I know this is a game forum, so academic rigor is not to be expected, but nevertheless references of some kind are still important, specially for suggestions that are supposed to improve historical accuracy.

Exactly.

On 1/11/2019 at 11:08 PM, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

especially the iliad and odyssey are always worth it.

Yes, the Iliad and Odyssey are two of the greatest works of literature and are certainly worth reading. However, they're written down c. 700 BC and are therefore not useful for 0 A.D.'s timeframe (500–1 BC).

2 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

proving nonexistence of oriental carpets not on list of priorities.

However:

On 1/8/2019 at 10:59 AM, Sundiata said:

The second point is that Pazyryk rug is dated to the 5th Century BC, and was already highly developed

Which proofs rugs existed.

On 1/8/2019 at 9:18 AM, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Herodotus mentions bright carpets

Which shows the Greeks knew of their existence.

Also, Aristophanes Ecclesiazusae contains a scene (311 onwards) where an ordinary Athenian citizen goes outside to defecate in the morning, but because he couldn't find his own clothes, he takes his wife's (317–319):

[…], λαμβάνω
τουτὶ τὸ τῆς γυναικὸς ἡμιδιπλοίδιον,
καὶ τὰς ἐκείνης Περσικὰς ὑφέλκομαι.
“I took this semi-foldover of my wife's and pulled on her Persian slippers.”

And when his neighbour spots him and asks what he's wearing, he answers (331–332):

οὔκ, ἀλλὰ τῆς γυναικὸς ἐξελήλυθα
τὸ κροκωτίδιον ἀμπισχόμενος οὑνδύεται.
“No, I've come out wearing my wife's little saffron number that she usually puts on.”

No, there are no rugs mentioned here, however, this scene indicates that it was not uncommon for ordinary 4th C BC Athenian citizens to have luxury products such as dyed cloth and imported Persian goods.

On 1/8/2019 at 9:18 AM, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

on top of Egyptian rooftops.

In parts of Egypt, India, and other areas where rain is rare, days are hot, and nights cool, it is not unusual to sleep on the roof, which also explains why the rooftop is flat and why carpets might be not inappropiate there.

(To clarify, I'm not claiming rugs were common.)

Edited January 14, 2019 by Nescio
ce

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Stan`]

2 minutes ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Aladdin A.D." because of random quarrel.

Reducing 0 A.D. to it's rugs would be a bit unfair don't you think. Removing carpets is easy replacing them will be more tricky.

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Andrettin]

1 hour ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

 

You, Sir, just seem to like to be right and quarrel in face of the conspicuous. The subject "oriental carpets in hellenistic era" is easily answered, certainly as far as the game is concerned - I will not indulge you in silly waste of time. The Perseus dictionary reference is a polite service to you, because your understanding of antiquity is as insufficient as your post indicates.

Or should I require that jade vases be put on all roofs of the Seleucids, if you cannot now produce an academic treatise to the subject "was jade common in Ancient Greece". It could have been - was it? Some things are just conspicuous. No substantial literature exists to treat those - maybe you can find a serious scholar willing to devote scholarly efforts to find out more about a product that belonged to another culture, in another era. Why not write studies about the prevalence of bonsai trees in fifth century Greece. All questions we can ask, but in my opinion a waste of our time. But some people seem to enjoy quarrelling for the sake of it.

I am not quarreling. You made a claim, and I asked for sources, that's all. This is common procedure in projects that strive for historical accuracy (like 0 AD). Usually when someone makes a proposal for a change that relates to historical accuracy here, people ask for references. That is perfectly reasonable, as otherwise how can people know that the claim is substantiated?

Consider for instance what happened to the Europa Barbarorum project. For years they added content to their mod based on the say-so of a team member who they trusted because he was a friend. That team member claimed to do primary research in an Irish monastery. When that person was asked for sources, he would tell that his research was too bleeding edge for there to be published sources, and other reasons. Eventually people caught up that he was inventing things wholecloth, and that him being a researcher in an Irish monastery was a lie. For a project to protect itself against such things (or against innocent misinformation), it is important to ask for sources. I am NOT saying that that is the case with you, note, I'm only mentioning the story to emphasize the relevance of sourcing.

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Sundiata]

Let me add a little to that headache... My ancient Greek is like, super rusty , so maybe you guys, @Nescio & @Anaxandridas ho Skandiates can explain the mention of carpets in these English translations?

As we probably all agree, they wouldn't have been common. But that's not being challenged. Just the idea to remove all of them, as opposed to using them only where appropriate. 

 

Homer, The Iliad (Hom. Il. 10.115) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0217:book=10:card=115

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On this Odysseus went at once into his tent, put his shield about his shoulders and came out with them. First they went to Diomedes son of Tydeus, and found him outside his tent clad in his armor with his comrades sleeping round him and using their shields as pillows; as for their spears,

they stood upright on the spikes of their butts that were driven into the ground, and the burnished bronze flashed afar like the lightning of father Zeus. The hero was sleeping upon the skin of an ox, with a piece of fine carpet under his head; Nestor went up to him and stirred him with his heel to rouse him, upbraiding him and urging him to bestir himself. "Wake up," he exclaimed, "son of Tydeus. How can you sleep on in this way? Can you not see that the Trojans are encamped on the brow of the plain hard by our ships, with but a little space between us and them?"

 

Homer, The Odyssey (Hom. Od. 10.8) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0218:book=10:card=8 

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"Meanwhile her four servants, who are her housemaids, set about their work. They are the children of the groves and fountains, and of the holy waters that run down into the sea. One of them spread a fair purple cloth over a seat, and laid a carpet underneath it. Another brought tables of silver up to the seats, and set them with baskets of gold. A third mixed some sweet wine with water in a silver bowl and put golden cups upon the tables, while the fourth brought in water and set it to boil in a large cauldron over a good fire which she had lighted.

 

Horatius Flaccus (Horace), The Works of Horace (Hor. S. 2.6) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0063:book=2:poem=6

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And now the night possessed the middle region of the heavens, when each of them set foot in a gorgeous palace, where carpets dyed with crimson grain glittered upon ivory couches, and many baskets of a magnificent entertainment remained, which had yesterday been set by in baskets piled upon one another. After he had placed the peasant then, stretched at ease, upon a splendid carpet; he bustles about like an adroit host, and keeps bringing up one dish close upon another, and with an affected civility performs all the ceremonies, first tasting of every thing he serves up.

 

Xenophon, Anabasis (Xen. Anab. 7.3) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0202:book=7:chapter=3

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Next he came up to Timasion the Dardanian,—for he heard that he had some Persian drinking cups and carpets,—and said that it was customary when Seuthes invited people to dinner, for those who were thus invited to give him presents. “And,” he continued, “in case this Seuthes becomes a great man in this region, he will be able either to restore you to your home or to make you rich here.”

[...]

When the drinking was well under way, there came in a Thracian with a white horse, and taking a full horn he said: “I drink your health, Seuthes, and present to you this horse; on his back pursuing you shall catch whomever you choose, and retreating you shall not fear the enemy.” Another brought in a boy and presented him in the same way, with a health to Seuthes, while another presented clothes for his wife. Timasion also drank his health and presented to him a silver bowl and a carpet worth ten minas

That last one is particularly interesting as it even mentions the actual monetary value of that particular carpet ("ten minas"), quite expensive...

 

Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers (D. L. 5.4) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0258:book=5:chapter=4

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They shall also remunerate the physicians Pasithemis and Medias who for their attention to me and their skill deserve far higher reward. I bequeath to the child of Callinus a pair of Thericlean cups, and to his wife a pair of Rhodian vessels, a smooth carpet, a rug with nap on both sides, a sofa cover and two cushions the best that are left, that, so far as I have the means of recompensing them, I may prove not ungrateful. 

 

This was also interesting: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/carpets-vi

Edited January 14, 2019 by Sundiata

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Nescio]

2 hours ago, Sundiata said:

Let me add a little to that headache... My ancient Greek is like, super rusty , so maybe you guys, @Nescio & @Anaxandridas ho Skandiates can explain the mention of carpets in these English translations?

Since you're asking:

• Hom. Il. 10.156: αὐτὰρ ὑπὸ κράτεσφι τάπης τετάνυστο φαεινός.

  The word you're looking for is ὁ τάπης: carpet, rug, spread on seats and beds; Attic variants are ἡ τάπις and ἡ δάπις. The word is possibly of Iranian origin. The diminutive is τό τᾰπήτιον, other derivatives include ὁ τᾰπητάριος (carpet-weaver or carpet-merchant), ὁ τᾰπητέμπορος (carpet-merchant), ὁ τᾰπῐδῠφάντης (carpet-weaver), τά τᾰπῐδῠφαντικά (proceeds of tax on carpet-weavers), and ὁ τᾰπῐδύφος (carpet-weaver).
  Ὁ τάπης entered Latin as tapēs, from which it entered modern European languages (e.g. English tapestry), either directly or via French.

• Hom. Od. 10.352-3: τάων ἡ μὲν ἔβαλλε θρόνοις ἔνι ῥήγεα καλὰ
  πορφύρεα καθύπερθ᾽, ὑπένερθε δὲ λῖθ᾽ ὑπέβαλλεν

  The word in question is τό ῥῆγος: rug, blanket, used as a covering of a bed or of a seat, and made from wool (τό λίνον (related to English linen) is the word for anything made out of flax).

• Xen. Anab. 7.3.18: τούτους μὲν οὖν οὕτως ἔπειθεν. αὖθις δὲ Τιμασίωνι τῷ Δαρδανεῖ προσελθών, ἐπεὶ ἤκουσεν αὐτῷ εἶναι καὶ ἐκπώματα καὶ τάπιδας βαρβαρικάς, ἔλεγεν ὅτι νομίζοιτο ὁπότε ἐπὶ δεῖπνον καλέσαι Σεύθης δωρεῖσθαι αὐτῷ τοὺς κληθέντας. οὗτος δ᾽ ἢν μέγας ἐνθάδε γένηται, ἱκανὸς ἔσται σε καὶ οἴκαδε καταγαγεῖν καὶ ἐνθάδε πλούσιον ποιῆσαι. τοιαῦτα προυμνᾶτο ἑκάστῳ προσιών.

  Again ὁ τάπης.

  Xen. Anab. 7.3.27:  ἄλλος παῖδα εἰσάγων οὕτως ἐδωρήσατο προπίνων, καὶ ἄλλος ἱμάτια τῇ γυναικί. καὶ Τιμασίων προπίνων ἐδωρήσατο φιάλην τε ἀργυρᾶν καὶ τάπιδα ἀξίαν δέκα μνῶν.

  Again ὁ τάπης.

• Diogenes Laertius V.72: [...] καὶ τῇ γυναικὶ αὐτοῦ Ῥοδιακῶν ζεῦγος, ψιλοτάπιδα, ἀμφίταπιν, περίστρωμα, προσκεφάλαια δύο τὰ βέλτιστα τῶν καταλειπομένων [...]

  Here the words are ἡ ψῑλί-τᾰπις: a smooth carpet, a carpet without pile; ὁ ἀμφι-τάπης: rug or carpet with pile on both sides; and τό περί-στρωμα: covering of a bed.

[Sundiata]

@Nescio, marvelous, thank you! I also saw a bunch of mentions of the word tapestry in English. Following example is from a Latin comedy, I believe. Alexandria was apparently a centre for tapestry weaving... 

T. Maccius Plautus, Pseudolus, or The Cheat http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0107:act=1:scene=2 

Quote

Now, therefore, unless you all of you give your attention to this charge, unless you remove drowsiness and sloth from your breasts and eyes, I'll make your sides to be right thoroughly marked with thongs, so much so that not even Campanian coverlets are coloured as well, nor yet Alexandrian tapestry of purple embroidered with beasts all over. Even yesterday I already gave you all notice, and assigned to each his own respective employment; but so utterly worthless are you, so neglectful, of such stub-born dispositions, that you compel me to put you in mind of your duty with a basting.

 

3 Alexandrian tapestry: We learn from Pliny the Elder that the people of Alexandria excelled in weaving tapestry of many threads, which was called "polymita." They excelled both the Babylonians and Phrygians in depicting birds, beasts, and human beings, upon their productions. Campania seems from the present passage to have been famous for its counterpanes.

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by Sundiata